Is College For Girls?
Actually I’m surprised by the pragmatism of Wilson’s article. Her logic seems to be based on the premise that higher education functions primarily to prepare you for your career. In this respect, her reasoning is actually not too far removed from the world’s perspective of education: degree=career. The only difference is in how she defines a woman’s career. It seems that what she is really arguing is because the “career” of many Christian young ladies will be as wives and homeschooling mothers, they should be educated in order to pursue that vocation well.
What about the notion of educating young ladies simply because they are made in the image of God and through a fuller understanding of His world, they will come to know themselves and Him better? And then, as a side benefit, become better wives and mothers.
(This from a woman with a B.A. in the Humanities, brief career in ESL, now SHM of three soon-to-be homeschooled children. )
What about the notion of educating young ladies simply because they are made in the image of God and through a fuller understanding of His world, they will come to know themselves and Him better? And then, as a side benefit, become better wives and mothers.
(This from a woman with a B.A. in the Humanities, brief career in ESL, now SHM of three soon-to-be homeschooled children. )
[handerson] Actually I’m surprised by the pragmatism of Wilson’s article. Her logic seems to be based on the premise that higher education functions primarily to prepare you for your career. In this respect, her reasoning is actually not too far removed from the world’s perspective of education: degree=career. The only difference is in how she defines a woman’s career. It seems that what she is really arguing is because the “career” of many Christian young ladies will be as wives and homeschooling mothers, they should be educated in order to pursue that vocation well.But, of course, in our pragmatic way of thinking in terms of dollars & cents, that benefit doesn’t justify the expense.
What about the notion of educating young ladies simply because they are made in the image of God and through a fuller understanding of His world, they will come to know themselves and Him better? And then, as a side benefit, become better wives and mothers.
(This from a woman with a B.A. in the Humanities, brief career in ESL, now SHM of three soon-to-be homeschooled children. )
Very well said Mrs. Anderson!
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
[Joseph] Keri,Wow! This totally shocks me, and I have to disagree. I have two degrees in education, and I find them to be invaluable, especially my master’s degree. I could teach my children without my degrees, but I am a much better teacher as a result of my degrees.
With respect, I would advise anyone, especially someone who intended to homeschool, to study anything before they took an education degree.
Besides the fact that you do not get much advanced, college level training, certainly not like people who are actually majoring in the relevant field, education as a field is a pseudo-field, which garners respect from people inside of it but almost no one in a rigorous discipline. It has neither neither the technical discipline and requirements of the hard sciences, nor the methodological rigor required in the social sciences, nor the tradition and depth found in the humanities.
I think all teachers ought to study education; but one hardly needs an education degree for this; indeed, it may hinder the process.
Getting certified is different matter, one of pragmatics; because certification is often required and usually helps, people who wish to teach are welll-advised to gain certification, although it does not mean anything in terms of quality.
Somehow, great teachers and students existed long before “education” as a field developed; and, since education as a field took over schooling, the results have been unhappy, not to say utterly disastrous.
Addy,
I’m glad to hear you find your education degrees helpful.
I have the greatest respect for teachers, and a commensurate high disrespect for “education as a discipline.” Most of the former train technically in the latter, so I wish to make clear that disrespect of the latter entails no disrespect of the former. I myself am still open to teaching in high school, and if I did I would pursue certification (for pragmatic reasons). Either way, I hope to end up as a teacher, so I am quite passionate about education, and have a deep admiration for all good teachers, especially those laboring in our public schools.
I do not wish to, nor do I have the time to, get into a tangle over the field of education. My comments are based on my experience with teachers, my reading about teaching and great teachers, my reading of great educators (e.g. like Jacques Barzun), and some general facts, among which are: education degrees are 1) one of (if not) the easiest degrees to obtain in the university 2) one of the most dubious from any broadly (natural or social) scientific perspective 3) have absolutely no clear correlation with good teaching or good education, as the history of twentieth century education shows given the utter disaster of a school system that we have, which is run by “professional educators.”
Education as a field also violates a lot of common sense, which has been repeated by many people, not the least of whom is Gilbert Highet in The Art of Teaching. One element of this common sense is that a precondition for good teaching is profound knowledge of one’s subject. “Education” is not a coherent subject, nor is one teaching “education” to a student; one is teaching them math, or science, or philosophy, or grammar, or literature, etc. Education majorsto know less about any of these actual subjects than those who actually major in them, which is why I would at least tell someone to major in X, but then take a licensure program on top, if they knew they wanted to teach. But I would never advise them to actually major in education, for the above, and a host of other reasons.
The idea of learning “method,” for example, without a specific discipline is preposterous, quite literally (see, for example, Jacques Barzun’s essay on “Pre-posterism” in “Begin Here: The Forgotten Conditions of Teaching and Learning”), especially when the “methods” are based on the social scientific disciplines, which are human sciences based on interpretation in a way that natural sciences are not, and they are therefore by no means definitive or undisputed in the “consclusions” reached in such fields, as the incredibly widespread disagreement among theorist in sociology and psychology indicate.
Much more could, and deserves to be said, and I wish to emphasize that I have the complete opposite of ill-will towards teachers such as yourself and others who have or are receiving training in education.
P.S. Incidentally, criticism of education as a field is very widespread, but if anyone is curious, you can access the article on “Teacher Education” in Education and Sociology: An Encyclopedia on google books to see some of the history of the complaints and criticisms in the field.
I’m glad to hear you find your education degrees helpful.
I have the greatest respect for teachers, and a commensurate high disrespect for “education as a discipline.” Most of the former train technically in the latter, so I wish to make clear that disrespect of the latter entails no disrespect of the former. I myself am still open to teaching in high school, and if I did I would pursue certification (for pragmatic reasons). Either way, I hope to end up as a teacher, so I am quite passionate about education, and have a deep admiration for all good teachers, especially those laboring in our public schools.
I do not wish to, nor do I have the time to, get into a tangle over the field of education. My comments are based on my experience with teachers, my reading about teaching and great teachers, my reading of great educators (e.g. like Jacques Barzun), and some general facts, among which are: education degrees are 1) one of (if not) the easiest degrees to obtain in the university 2) one of the most dubious from any broadly (natural or social) scientific perspective 3) have absolutely no clear correlation with good teaching or good education, as the history of twentieth century education shows given the utter disaster of a school system that we have, which is run by “professional educators.”
Education as a field also violates a lot of common sense, which has been repeated by many people, not the least of whom is Gilbert Highet in The Art of Teaching. One element of this common sense is that a precondition for good teaching is profound knowledge of one’s subject. “Education” is not a coherent subject, nor is one teaching “education” to a student; one is teaching them math, or science, or philosophy, or grammar, or literature, etc. Education majorsto know less about any of these actual subjects than those who actually major in them, which is why I would at least tell someone to major in X, but then take a licensure program on top, if they knew they wanted to teach. But I would never advise them to actually major in education, for the above, and a host of other reasons.
The idea of learning “method,” for example, without a specific discipline is preposterous, quite literally (see, for example, Jacques Barzun’s essay on “Pre-posterism” in “Begin Here: The Forgotten Conditions of Teaching and Learning”), especially when the “methods” are based on the social scientific disciplines, which are human sciences based on interpretation in a way that natural sciences are not, and they are therefore by no means definitive or undisputed in the “consclusions” reached in such fields, as the incredibly widespread disagreement among theorist in sociology and psychology indicate.
Much more could, and deserves to be said, and I wish to emphasize that I have the complete opposite of ill-will towards teachers such as yourself and others who have or are receiving training in education.
P.S. Incidentally, criticism of education as a field is very widespread, but if anyone is curious, you can access the article on “Teacher Education” in Education and Sociology: An Encyclopedia on google books to see some of the history of the complaints and criticisms in the field.
[Susan R][Keri L.] shouldn’t go to college, but that an intent to homeschool IMO is not a good reason to spend the time and tuition on a degree when it lends nothing of value to the homeschooler.I’m kind of surprised to hear you say this, Susan. Do you have a degree? Did it lend “nothing of value” to you as a homeschooling mom?
I know that I DO have a degree and believe that it has helped me a lot.
[Joseph] ABut I would never advise them to actually major in education, for the above, and a host of other reasons.I wasn’t aware that you could actually major in “education” (except elementary education). Most of the education majors I know are like Math ed, English Ed, Science Ed and they do have a LOT of their field classes. I know that when I majored in Home Ec Ed/Science minor, the classes I had all the classes of the Home Ec major Plus the education classes. It was an incredibly full major. The Science and Math Ed majors have very full majors as well. Usually their “education” classes are the easiest ones they have. In days gone by they may have had just an “education” major as a general major, but you’re right, that would be kind of a joke.
On the other hand, I wish all people who were going to be teachers HAD to have at least one or two teaching methods classes. Some of the most boring professors I had were people with PhD’s in something like philosophy but obviously NOT ONE Education Methods class. I also think all Pastors in training should be required to take a teaching methods class. ;)
Joseph,
I’m glad you don’t have the time or the desire to tangle over this issue; me neither! :) (And you’re an academic heavyweight. I don’t stand a chance! :)) I do think we could make a distinction between those who teach high school/ university vs. those who teach elementary students. My husband is a college professor and has no degree in education. His degrees are in his field, and he’s a fabulous teacher. (And I’m totally unbiased. :)) I teach little ones, and I’m really glad I understand the different methods of teaching a child to learn how to read, for instance. Hypothetical question that you don’t need to answer: Do you know how to effectively teach a child to read? There are some methods out there, being marketed to home-schoolers, that are abominable. My education was not completely necessary, but it’s been completely beneficial. I’m sticking with Keri: If you plan on homeschooling your kids, an elem. education degree is not a bad idea.
I’m glad you don’t have the time or the desire to tangle over this issue; me neither! :) (And you’re an academic heavyweight. I don’t stand a chance! :)) I do think we could make a distinction between those who teach high school/ university vs. those who teach elementary students. My husband is a college professor and has no degree in education. His degrees are in his field, and he’s a fabulous teacher. (And I’m totally unbiased. :)) I teach little ones, and I’m really glad I understand the different methods of teaching a child to learn how to read, for instance. Hypothetical question that you don’t need to answer: Do you know how to effectively teach a child to read? There are some methods out there, being marketed to home-schoolers, that are abominable. My education was not completely necessary, but it’s been completely beneficial. I’m sticking with Keri: If you plan on homeschooling your kids, an elem. education degree is not a bad idea.
[Becky Petersen][Susan R] shouldn’t go to college, but that an intent to homeschool IMO is not a good reason to spend the time and tuition on a degree when it lends nothing of value to the homeschooler.I’m kind of surprised to hear you say this, Susan. Do you have a degree? Did it lend “nothing of value” to you as a homeschooling mom?
I know that I DO have a degree and believe that it has helped me a lot.
I have a Bachelors of Religious Education from Massillon Baptist College. It is of limited value, period. I didn’t learn anything there that my parents hadn’t already taught me at home without either one of them having a college degree. And I can’t point to any course or teacher and say that what they imparted is invaluable to me as a home educator.
Training in classroom management, school administration, and how to meet national standards do nothing for a homeschooler. What is important is being a committed life-long learner who knows how to engage her children’s curiosity and creativity, how to research and provide a variety of high quality resources, and how to maintain discipline in the home. All of those are characteristics that one does not need to pay $60,000 to acquire.
I’m not against college or pursuing a degree, but since I’ve known homeschoolers who didn’t even finish high school, but yet were able to provide a rich learning environment to their children, who then experienced enormous success themselves- I’m not going to be able to say that a college degree is doing to do anything in particular for a homeschooler.
I also agree with handerson’s post, and I believe that the pursuit of knowledge in order to better understand and interact with the world around us is beneficial and prudent. College is just one way a person can do this. But I do not suggest to anyone thinking about home education that college is going to be helpful. This encourages in their mind the idea (that I personally find repugnant) that only ‘professional’ educators can provide a quality learning experience for a student. Society in general thoroughly believes this myth , regardless of the studies that have been done that show that communication skills and an affinity for children are the top two characteristics of successful teachers, and the supportive evidence that homeschooled students are successful regardless of the education their parents received.
What parent here needs college to have an affinity for their own children?
Many young people go to college to ‘find themselves’ and explore their independence. I think if a young person hasn’t gotten a few things ‘figured out’ by the time they graduate high school, they don’t have a grasp on their purpose and identity, and they haven’t experience some independence already, the parents have left quite a bit undone, and college isn’t an appropriate place to ‘find yourself’. But if a person has direction and purpose, some goals in line with their interests and talents, and is certain that college is part of pursuing the path that God has for them, then they are the perfect candidate for college, man or woman.
Susan,
I recently saw the results of a survey that I believe the HSLDA is publishing. One thing that stuck out to me was that home-schoolers who have parents with college degrees (any degree) scored better than those whose parents did not. I realize there are exceptions (I know some!), but this was the trend in this study.
I recently saw the results of a survey that I believe the HSLDA is publishing. One thing that stuck out to me was that home-schoolers who have parents with college degrees (any degree) scored better than those whose parents did not. I realize there are exceptions (I know some!), but this was the trend in this study.
I firmly believe that most children should go away to a solid Christian college for a year. I brought this point up before and was shot down by a homeschooler. No Susan it wasnt you. :) Every believer, church, college, and family as their blindspots. Each blindspot may be different. I think that going to a solid Christian college will help the individual see things from a different perspective and see not only the blindspots from home, but also the blindspots at the college (whether student, faculty, or staff). Thus this will only help them grow as believers if that is their desire.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
Hi Addy,
Just to be clear, I don’t think there is no value or your use in an education degree; I simply said I would never recommend someone pursue such a degree, largely because the valuable things you mention hardly require a major to learn; you can simply read the relevant books and, as I said, the data in much education theory is inconclusive, to say the least, as evinced by the fact that all kinds of hair-brained ideas have been implemented because of education “research,” etc.
To your question, I am not sure there is a single way effectively to teach a child to read. I know this: my mom was (with myself and two elder siblings) and is (with my three younger siblings) a superb elementary teacher as a homeschooling mom. She did one year of college before she got married, and all of her kids had extremely high reading abilities very young. So, I know that, however one teaches kids, people like my mom are superb at it without studying in education programs.
Of course my mom, like any good homeschooling parent, has done a lot of research, and did a lot of research before she started teaching us.
But the broader point is that however one teaches kids to read, people have been doing it long before, and often more effectively than, modern education theory (as witnessed by our literacy rates). For me the question is not whether training is helpful; it’s whether an education degree/program is necessary for that training, and I do not think it is. Indeed, as the encyclopedia article I references notes, in much of the debates about teacher education, one of the things most people agreed on was a need for more rigor and getting rid of undergraduate Ed. degrees (obviously that has not worked).
With respect to a distinction between highschool/university teaching and elementary, I would simply that whenever actual content becomes the focus certain basic pedagogical principles apply, one of which is mastery of the subject being taught. I certainly grant that 5-year olds are different from 15 year-olds, and good pedagogy should obviously take such differences into account.
With respect to Becky’s point about methods, I think it simply misleading. Every licensed teacher has taken slews of method’s courses, and many of them are horrendous teachers. Many fantastic teachers have never taken methods courses. As I said, method separated from content is preposterous. Besides, in most good PhD programs pedagogy is part of the teaching fellow experience, but even then, it is not method that makes a good teacher. Thus I don’t think pastors or college teachers taking educational methods courses is the best way to make them better teachers.
Some people have an especial knack for teaching, but in general good teachers learn how to teach from good teachers (surprise). The need for “methods” in modern education has far more to do with things utterly irrelevant to the content of a discipline as such, like “classroom management,” than it does with actual teaching.
Thank you all for the beneficial interaction, and I take my hat off to all of you who are teaching.
Just to be clear, I don’t think there is no value or your use in an education degree; I simply said I would never recommend someone pursue such a degree, largely because the valuable things you mention hardly require a major to learn; you can simply read the relevant books and, as I said, the data in much education theory is inconclusive, to say the least, as evinced by the fact that all kinds of hair-brained ideas have been implemented because of education “research,” etc.
To your question, I am not sure there is a single way effectively to teach a child to read. I know this: my mom was (with myself and two elder siblings) and is (with my three younger siblings) a superb elementary teacher as a homeschooling mom. She did one year of college before she got married, and all of her kids had extremely high reading abilities very young. So, I know that, however one teaches kids, people like my mom are superb at it without studying in education programs.
Of course my mom, like any good homeschooling parent, has done a lot of research, and did a lot of research before she started teaching us.
But the broader point is that however one teaches kids to read, people have been doing it long before, and often more effectively than, modern education theory (as witnessed by our literacy rates). For me the question is not whether training is helpful; it’s whether an education degree/program is necessary for that training, and I do not think it is. Indeed, as the encyclopedia article I references notes, in much of the debates about teacher education, one of the things most people agreed on was a need for more rigor and getting rid of undergraduate Ed. degrees (obviously that has not worked).
With respect to a distinction between highschool/university teaching and elementary, I would simply that whenever actual content becomes the focus certain basic pedagogical principles apply, one of which is mastery of the subject being taught. I certainly grant that 5-year olds are different from 15 year-olds, and good pedagogy should obviously take such differences into account.
With respect to Becky’s point about methods, I think it simply misleading. Every licensed teacher has taken slews of method’s courses, and many of them are horrendous teachers. Many fantastic teachers have never taken methods courses. As I said, method separated from content is preposterous. Besides, in most good PhD programs pedagogy is part of the teaching fellow experience, but even then, it is not method that makes a good teacher. Thus I don’t think pastors or college teachers taking educational methods courses is the best way to make them better teachers.
Some people have an especial knack for teaching, but in general good teachers learn how to teach from good teachers (surprise). The need for “methods” in modern education has far more to do with things utterly irrelevant to the content of a discipline as such, like “classroom management,” than it does with actual teaching.
Thank you all for the beneficial interaction, and I take my hat off to all of you who are teaching.
[rogercarlson] I firmly believe that most children should go away to a solid Christian college for a year. I brought this point up before and was shot down by a homeschooler. No Susan it wasnt you. :) Every believer, church, college, and family as their blindspots. Each blindspot may be different. I think that going to a solid Christian college will help the individual see things from a different perspective and see not only the blindspots from home, but also the blindspots at the college (whether student, faculty, or staff). Thus this will only help them grow as believers if that is their desire.
I think it would be great if more churches focused their attention on parenting skills than programs for children. It is important to me that my children think critically and Biblically- we often challenge ourselves by reading books from a wide variety of authors and outlooks for the very reason you mentioned- I know I have blind spots, and instead of pretending that I don’t, I get out a spotlight and bloodhounds and go lookin’ for ‘em!
But parents who are ignorant or insecure will not be aware of their weaknesses or too intimidated to address them. And what kind of college might a parent who doesn’t have a strong grasp of theology and lots of blind spots send their child to? ;)
Churches should consider educating parents first, and encourage parents to be the primary spiritual ministers to their kids, instead of the other way around. Which brings me back to a point that is more on topic… I hope. And that is that college is for someone with some clear and basic objectives in mind- none of this “I don’t know what to do so I’ll go to college and puddle around until I figure it out”. How does one even choose a college when they don’t know what their interests and abilities are and they have not even a working definition of where they might want to go in the future?
[Addy Forrest] Susan,
I recently saw the results of a survey that I believe the HSLDA is publishing. One thing that stuck out to me was that home-schoolers who have parents with college degrees (any degree) scored better than those whose parents did not. I realize there are exceptions (I know some!), but this was the trend in this study.
I should have been clearer- the parents’ education level made no difference when compared to public schooled students, but not when compared to other homeschoolers. I looked up the latest HSLDA study you mentioned-
The education level of the parents made a noticeable difference, but the homeschooled children of non-college educated parents still scored in the 83rd percentile, which is well above the national average.In this study there was some difference based how much schooling the parents completed when compared with other homeschoolers- but both groups scored higher than the average public schooled student, where all the teachers have college degrees. It is also interesting to note that certification made no difference, and neither did the amount of money spent. What conclusion are we left with? That based on standardized test scores, the average homeschooler received a better education than the average public schooler.
Neither parent has a college degree—83rd percentile
One parent has a college degree—86th percentile
Both parents have a college degree—90th percentile
Whether either parent was a certified teacher did not matter.
Certified (i.e., either parent ever certified)—87th percentile
Not certified (i.e., neither parent ever certified)—88th percentile
Parental spending on home education made little difference.
Spent $600 or more on the student—89th percentile
Spent under $600 on the student—86th percentile
The extent of government regulation on homeschoolers did not affect the results.
Low state regulation—87th percentile
Medium state regulation—88th percentile
High state regulation—87th percentile
So I still wouldn’t recommend that someone thinking about homeschooling pursue a degree, especially in education (and Joseph has already covered why), but home education is definitely about being a life-long learner, so again- I don’t oppose college per se, but there are definitely less expensive ways to go about learning, and since certifications and degrees are not necessary for home education, I don’t see the point. What I would recommend is being well-read, join a book club, go to workshops… it’s cheaper and more fun. :)
I’ve perused this thread with interest. Thanks to you all for articulating your perspectives. As a homeschooling mom with an undergraduate degree in elementary education, I can identify with bits of what you all are saying. A few thoughts. First, if I had it to do over, I think I would have majored in something other than elementary education. I think what drove my decision was my parents’ encouragement to major in something I was “cut out for” (I’m one of those “born teachers”), and something practical and easily marketable, should I need to support myself. One positive thing about my teaching degree is that it, as Joseph said, gives me credibility with others in the field, which is great when you’re homeschooling. My son is doing speech therapy through the local public school, and no one there is hassling us, since I’ve told them I have a teaching certificate. (They’ve actually tried to get me to teach at the school! :)) Also, if we ever find ourselves “under investigation” by the DOE, the fact that I have a certificate will no doubt help our cause.
I agree with Addy that there are some things of value that I learned in the el ed program—concepts that I put into practice today. But I would have to say that I really don’t use much of what I learned in methods courses…simply because I’m educating at home, which is a world apart from classroom teaching. Behavior modification is pretty simple. :) I don’t do bulletin boards (or use opaque projectors—lol) administer reading tests, etc. Don’t tell my professors, but I’ve even given up on weekly lesson planning. Ouch! That’s really hard to admit.
I might comment more later…Gotta run for now.
I agree with Addy that there are some things of value that I learned in the el ed program—concepts that I put into practice today. But I would have to say that I really don’t use much of what I learned in methods courses…simply because I’m educating at home, which is a world apart from classroom teaching. Behavior modification is pretty simple. :) I don’t do bulletin boards (or use opaque projectors—lol) administer reading tests, etc. Don’t tell my professors, but I’ve even given up on weekly lesson planning. Ouch! That’s really hard to admit.
I might comment more later…Gotta run for now.
Discussion