"My contention is that the Bible does not address at all 'drinking in moderation.'"
From the article:
[Quote] My contention is that the Bible does not address at all “drinking in moderation.” This is not a question any Old or New Testament person would ever have asked. For him, it was a fact of life that there was a very high probability that everyone would consume alcohol. It was virtually impossible to avoid it. The emphasis of the Bible was on warning the saints to exercise great caution lest they fall victim to the pernicious effects of consuming too much alcohol.Hmmm…a warning about consuming “too much” (i.e. moderation) appears to be exactly what the author asserts is not addressed in Scripture.
Interestingly and also from the article:
[Quote] My contention is that the Bible does not address at all “drinking in moderation.” This is not a question any Old or New Testament person would ever have asked. For him, it was a fact of life that there was a very high probability that everyone would consume alcohol. It was virtually impossible to avoid it. The emphasis of the Bible was on warning the saints to exercise great caution lest they fall victim to the pernicious effects of consuming too much alcohol.Hmmm…a warning about consuming “too much” (i.e. moderation) appears to be exactly what the author asserts is not addressed in Scripture.
Interestingly and also from the article:
So back to my question—what does the result of a natural process in ancient times have to do with the commercially produced beverages of today? Little if anything. Alcohol consumption today is a social activity, often associated with raucous living. This hardly fits the biblical world where alcohol consumption in some form was virtually unavoidable.So if in this “biblical world” where the author claims the consumption of alcohol was not associated with “raucous” living then one must wonder why he stated right before this:
But by itself, wine was also very dangerous—thus the numerous warnings against drunkenness. From the time of Noah, the Bible cautioned of alcohol’s power to wrest control of the individual and cause him to do some very sinful things.It appears quite clearly that there is plenty of “raucousness” associated with alcohol in the “biblical world”. What I believe the author is failing to do is distinguish between the misuse of alcohol and the appropriate use of alcohol. I find no one, either in today’s world or the biblical world associating “raucousness” with the appropriate use of alcohol, only in its misuse.
This is been dealt with thoroughly
Pastor Mike Harding
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Whether or not you agree with Straub, I think it’s inaccurate to say the “horse” is dead. The issue is being revisited in the minds of many Christians, with a growing perception of a moderation perspective increasing (or at least, reducing the forcefulness of an abstention position). I’m sure that’s true at a seminary level as much as it would be anywhere. I for one applaud Straub for addressing the matter in the manner he did. If matters assumed settled by one generation may not be proved to be so in the next- and that is even more the case if no one ever addresses it.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[Aaron Blumer] http://sharperiron.org/sites/default/files/images/09_08/deadhorsebeat_2…]
We can dream, can’t we?
[Aaron Blumer] http://sharperiron.org/sites/default/files/images/09_08/deadhorsebeat_2…]
Doesn’t that little yellow guy ever get tired?
Greg,
My point is that this has been discussed ad infinitum ad nauseum on SI.
My point is that this has been discussed ad infinitum ad nauseum on SI.
Pastor Mike Harding
[Mike Harding] Greg,Frankly it’s been debated for centuries
My point is that this has been discussed ad infinitum ad nauseum on SI.
In Jesus’ day, what were the hydration choices? The three basic options were water (often unsanitary), animal milk (hard to keep for any length of time without refrigeration), and the fruit of the vine (also hard to preserve in its fresh, unfermented state).so why not boil water if abstinence was desirable?
It also killed bacteria in other liquid—like water. In biblical times, alcohol was often mixed with water to purify the water and make it safe to drink.what concentration of alcohol is necessary to kill bacteria?
http://archsurg.highwire.org/cgi/content/summary/60/3/492
50% by some sources, 60-70% by others
definitely not the kind of concentrations you get by diluting wine. and definitely not a source for hydration.
[Mike Harding] My point is that this has been discussed ad infinitum ad nauseum on SI.
True. Maybe this time we’re just discussing the fact that someone else is discussing it… :) I’m increasingly thinking that this topic—like so many other “lifestyle” topics—depends almost entirely on where you’re already standing when you look at it. That is, there is a context /frame for thinking about the subject that has much more to do w/the conclusion than the actual facts and reasoning on the topic itself. We have more work to do in the area of sanctification and application of Scripture than on the specifics of alcohol, music, rules, etc. So sometimes we’re wrangling over what’s on the surface when the real questions are more foundational.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Jim Peet]Besides the Manicheans and the American temperance movement, can you think of any groups in Christian history that debated this? (The Manicheans were a Christian group only in the broadest sense of the word.)[Mike Harding] Greg,Frankly it’s been debated for centuries
My point is that this has been discussed ad infinitum ad nauseum on SI.
I’m not much of a historian so I probably misspoke.
Discussion