Should women be called upon to publically pray in a Sunday morning worship service?

I voted “yes.” Not sure exactly why this would be a problem for anyone, although I am sure that y’all will let me know if you disagree. If there is concern about a woman “usurping authority,” the fact that she is called on, presumably by the pastor/worship leader, indicates that she is acting under the authority of the male leadership of the church.

I voted “no” because I see public prayer as a male activity. Support 1 Timothy 2:8 where Paul uses the noun “ἀνήρ” for masculine men not the generic word for men.

“ούλομαι οὖν προσεύχεσθαι τοὺς ἄνδρας ἐν παντὶ τόπῳ ἐπαίροντας ὁσίους χεῖρας χωρὶς ὀργῆς καὶ διαλογισμοῦ”

We typically avoid having a woman pray in church, but every once in a while when we are specifically praying for a young lady in the church, we will call on woman to pray. I see no biblical precedent in Scripture indicating that something should be done otherwise.

If there is concern about a woman “usurping authority,” the fact that she is called on, presumably by the pastor/worship leader, indicates that she is acting under the authority of the male leadership of the church.

FYI, this same argument is used to allow women to teach men, so long as they are doing it under the authority of the elders of a church. The hard part is the exegesis, that it is hard to “remain silent” while also teaching with the permission of the elders.

The question seems rather to be whether praying publicly on Sunday morning is an act of authority. If it is, then she cannot pray publicly; she must remain silent. If it isn’t, then she is able to pray publicly.

This conversation is always interesting. It seems that asking women to pray is an expectation in the church rather than a question, at least for Paul. 1 Corinthians 11:4-5 tell us that Paul expected women to pray and prophesy, albeit with certain conditions in place. Verse 13 continues with the expectation of women praying in the church.

[Larry]

If there is concern about a woman “usurping authority,” the fact that she is called on, presumably by the pastor/worship leader, indicates that she is acting under the authority of the male leadership of the church.

FYI, this same argument is used to allow women to teach men, so long as they are doing it under the authority of the elders of a church. The hard part is the exegesis, that it is hard to “remain silent” while also teaching with the permission of the elders.

The question seems rather to be whether praying publicly on Sunday morning is an act of authority. If it is, then she cannot pray publicly; she must remain silent. If it isn’t, then she is able to pray publicly.

I agree this is a hard part. But, if you are going to assume that remaining silent in the church is a blanket statement, then you can’t have women give testimonies or participate in special music either. In fact, you cant have them join in the congregational singing for that matter. Nor can you allow them to teach other women and children since this would also break the supposed command for silence in the church. If you allow any of these other activities, then you cannot use this verse to prohibit women praying.

The role of men, as best we know in the New Testament, is clear - men are called to be spiritual leaders. Men are called to be the leaders of their homes. Men are called to be leaders (Elders/Deacons/Pastors) in the church. To allow women to lead the church in corporate prayer, chips away subtly at that teaching.

Jay,

Is praying really leadership? How is it more a leadership role than singing a solo for special music or playing the piano during the offertory - since they are both “leading” the congregational worship at that time too?

Query - if women are prohibited from praying in public gatherings of the church, are they also prohibited from participating in church business meetings? Even if they single, adult members of the church?

If you allow any of these other activities, then you cannot use this verse to prohibit women praying.

I disagree for this reason. The issue in 1 Tim 2 is exercising authority or remain silent. The silence, in other words, is tied to authority. It is not a generic silence. No one that I know of argues that a testimony or special music is authoritative. I suppose if someone believes that, then this applies.

That’s why I say the issue is whether or not the public prayer is authoritative.

[Larry]

If you allow any of these other activities, then you cannot use this verse to prohibit women praying.

I disagree for this reason. The issue in 1 Tim 2 is exercising authority or remain silent. The silence, in other words, is tied to authority. It is not a generic silence. No one that I know of argues that a testimony or special music is authoritative. I suppose if someone believes that, then this applies.

That’s why I say the issue is whether or not the public prayer is authoritative.

I understood the “should” to be “could.” Although it is best to model male leadership, women are encouraged to pray in a mixed group if their heads are covered (I Corinthians 11:4-10). The idea of a “formal worship service” is a creation of church history, not the Bible. The church had meetings, not “formal worship services.” In those meetings, women were discouraged from engaging in debate (I Corinthians 14:33-35) or to teach men (I Timothy 2:11-15).

The whole idea of the head covering was to make the point that women who were prophesying or praying were doing so while recognizing the men were the leaders. Whether the head coverings are cultural or counter-cultural at the time is a matter of debate; the point is, that, under certain circumstances, women are encouraged to pray in a church meeting.

As far as making distinctions between Bible studies, business meetings, Sunday School (with mixed genders), etc., these are artificial constructs. When believers meet for spiritual purposes (and even a church meeting is a spiritual purpose), they are meeting.

Look in the epistles and Acts. Where is the phrase “worship service” used? Indeed, individuals may worship, but the terms “corporate worship” or the idea that the church gathers primarily to worship is brought in from outside the Scriptures.

Ed,

You said that much better than I have been able to so far.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Jay,

Is praying really leadership? How is it more a leadership role than singing a solo for special music or playing the piano during the offertory - since they are both “leading” the congregational worship at that time too?

Chip,

Let me say that I do see your point.

That being said if the role of the worship leader / pastor is primarily to lead the congregation in their corporate praise and worship, then yes, I think that group prayer would be included in that. I would certainly include the opening prayer and benedictory prayers in that.

Jay,

How would that be different from singing a solo during special music or playing an instrument during the offertory? It seems that the soloist in particular fits your parameter of leading the congregation in worship for that period of time.

@Ed

When believers meet for spiritual purposes (and even a church meeting is a spiritual purpose), they are meeting.

All of that is true, Ed. But not all speech in church is the exercise of authority. That is the real issue, isn’t it?

@Chip

I don’t understand why public prayer would be different from singing a solo or playing an offertory.

It may not be. But you raise the issue of the phrase “lead in prayer.” Why do you think it has traditionally been called that? We don’t talk about “leading in special music,” or “lead in playing an offertory” do we? Is that just tradition? Or is there something more to it?

My question would be, on what grounds are we declaring public prayer authoritative

I am not declaring it authority. I am merely saying that is the issue. I encourage women to pray in public meetings. I have not had a woman lead the congregation in prayer in a public service. My main point is that this, IMO, is the deciding issue as to the question at hand.

Colossians 3:16 … teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs …

If one of the purposes of songs/music is to teach, are women teaching men when they sing special music?

I would say no. Many people just about preach when they pray and that would just about usurp I would say.

Larry said:

@Ed

When believers meet for spiritual purposes (and even a church meeting is a spiritual purpose), they are meeting.

All of that is true, Ed. But not all speech in church is the exercise of authority. That is the real issue, isn’t it?

You quoted me as though we disagreed. I argued that speech other than teaching the Word IS allowed.

I argued that speech other than teaching the Word IS allowed.

Again, we agree. But authoritative speech is only allowed by men. The question is whether or not public prayer in a Sunday morning service is authoritative. Doesn’t the question at least need to be asked?

I don’t know if “authoritative” speaking can really be pigeonholed.

A woman can sing a song that contains a lot of doctrinally authoritative stuff in it. She can give a testimony the same way. And I dont’mean speaking in a commanding way. Just speaking God’s truth and applying it to life.

so just what do we mean by “authoritative”? or exercizing authority?

maybe changing the approach of what we think it means to “lead” in public prayer. Is anyone exercizing authority when we pray together? is a man exercising authority when he prays publicly? is that even the way prayer happens?

cultural note: In churches here, there are often times of public prayer, in the sunday service, where anyone can pray, and women often do. it’s different than when americans just have one person praying at an appointed time, but maybe more Biblical in pattern.

I don’t know if “authoritative” speaking can really be pigeonholed.

Doesn’t this mean that there is no way to apply 1 Tim 2 then? If we don’t know what “authoritative speaking” is, how in the world can Paul forbid it? Or us apply Paul’s prohibition?

Again, I am not sure whether public prayer in a Sunday morning worship service fits that. I have never really thought about it until now. We do encourage women to pray in prayer groups and prayer meetings publicly. But to deny the category, or at least to deny the possibility of defining the category, seems to present an unworkable situation.

Larry,

Working through the thinking on this with you. Are your prayer groups and public prayer meetings mixed gender? I attended a church once that had congregational prayer time on Wednesday night where prayer requests were taken in a whole group setting before we all broke up into small groups scattered around the auditorium. However, the small groups where we actually prayed are always 2-5 people people of the same gender. So even though we met together and kind of prayed together, women were not praying with men specifically. I haven’t really seen that kind of break up in small group settings though.

As you are thinking through this, how might you see potential differences between a mixed small group prayer time and a Sunday morning prayer? Why might someone consider one possibly an authoritative speaking but not the other?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Larry,

Working through the thinking on this with you. Are your prayer groups and public prayer meetings mixed gender? I attended a church once that had congregational prayer time on Wednesday night where prayer requests were taken in a whole group setting before we all broke up into small groups scattered around the auditorium. However, the small groups where we actually prayed are always 2-5 people people of the same gender. So even though we met together and kind of prayed together, women were not praying with men specifically. I haven’t really seen that kind of break up in small group settings though.

As you are thinking through this, how might you see potential differences between a mixed small group prayer time and a Sunday morning prayer? Why might someone consider one possibly an authoritative speaking but not the other?

this is how our church does it. At first I thought it was strange but I got used to it. My wife has noted that at every church we have attended there has been at least one lady that preaches sermons in her prayers. I am not saying that prayers should not reflect on theology and doctrine. I believe they should but in our experience in church prayer is the medium that is easiest for a woman to teach.

the advantage then of breaking up into groups (we break up into one men’s group and one women’s) is that you avoid that as a potential problem.

Are your prayer groups and public prayer meetings mixed gender?

Yes.

As you are thinking through this, how might you see potential differences between a mixed small group prayer time and a Sunday morning prayer? Why might someone consider one possibly an authoritative speaking but not the other?

If there is a difference, I would say it is in the nature of the prayer in the context. A prayer group where everyone is praying might be different than a congregational context where someone is leading the congregation in prayer. I don’t think calling it “wording” a prayer changes that. It could be argued that it is spiritual ministry of leadership in the context of the gathered assembly.

[Chip Van Emmerik] Working through the thinking on this with you. Are your prayer groups and public prayer meetings mixed gender? I attended a church once that had congregational prayer time on Wednesday night where prayer requests were taken in a whole group setting before we all broke up into small groups scattered around the auditorium. However, the small groups where we actually prayed are always 2-5 people people of the same gender. So even though we met together and kind of prayed together, women were not praying with men specifically. I haven’t really seen that kind of break up in small group settings though.

Hey Chip-

Good question. We actually went to this format at my church after we finished going through the Courageous studies last year (We used these books for the men and these for the women, although the feedback I received for the women’s book is that it wasn’t as solid or deep as the men’s was for me). I think that this type of setup is actually kind of an ideal - it follows the Titus 2 pattern of older men teaching younger ones and older women teaching younger ones, and the groups are small enough that it isn’t just a bible class with prayer time, but a real opportunity for disciplemaking.

you’re right that authoritative has to have some meaning. but we know that praying and prophesying were not considered teaching and having authority. maybe you/we (as a culture) are giving prayer that idea of exercising authority. It’s possible. need to think about this some more.

Is it possible that the attitude of the one praying is the key to the question of authority? Doesn’t that mark the difference between praying/prophesying authoritatively or under submission to the church authority?

If 1 Tim 2 is the passage that controls this (and I think it is), then the contrast to exercise authority is not “watch your attitude” but “keep silent.” So I would imagine there is not much of case to be made for this.

I think the phrase “under submission to the church authority” is not one that is applicable here, again, since the Bible does not seem to have the category in the discussion concerning 1 Tim 2. The categories are in authority or not in authority.

The silence Paul refers to is an act of submission. Thus, Paul is not saying she should keep her mouth shut at all times, but that her submission to the male authority in the church should be evident. So it is a question of authority, not simply a command for silence.

Yes, but it is silence, not a particular kind of teaching. “Remain silent” doesn’t mean “teach under someone else’s authority.” It doesn’t mean that her submission to male authority should be evident. It means she should be silent in the matter of teaching and exercising authority.

So does that mean you are advocating absolute silence for women in church, or just no teaching? And does that include all forms of teaching and all potential audiences? Since Paul doesn’t mention prayer in this passage, how does the silence relate to prayer?

If you go back and read my previous comments, you can see that I have said that the issue is teaching and exercising authority over men in the church. That is what the text says. It is not absolute silence, as I have already said. It doesn’t include all forms of teaching or potential audiences.

The issue of prayer, as I said, is whether or not public prayer in a Sunday morning worship is an issue of authority.

It might be beneficial to go back and read the whole discussion where all these things were mentioned.

[QUOTE] Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[/QUOTE] Yes, the context is prophecy (authoritative speaking). But this text seems to go beyond a prohibition of feminine prophecy.

Verse 35 explicitly extends the prohibition to doctrinal inquiry. At face value, 35 says that a woman should not ask a question in “the churches”, but should keep her question to herself until she is home with her “own husband”.

34 also references “the law”. Is there an OT cross-reference for a law that prohibits women from speaking in the congregation? Was this prohibition a part of the Jewish Synagogue tradition? Perhaps that could enlighten us.

Finally, we should consider the word “disgraceful”. Violation of this law is not a mere breach of etiquette. It is “disgraceful”. Sounds pretty serious to me.

I struggle with this one. I have been taught to take the Bible at face value (allowing for poetry, hyperbole, etc. where appropriate). At face value, Paul’s rule for silent women is in conflict with my respect for my wife and other good women. I want to argue against Paul, but I don’t think we have that option.

The way I read it, our churches are in violation of I Corinthians 14. What am I missing?

[Larry]

So does that mean you are advocating absolute silence for women in church, or just no teaching? And does that include all forms of teaching and all potential audiences? Since Paul doesn’t mention prayer in this passage, how does the silence relate to prayer?

If you go back and read my previous comments, you can see that I have said that the issue is teaching and exercising authority over men in the church. That is what the text says. It is not absolute silence, as I have already said. It doesn’t include all forms of teaching or potential audiences.

The issue of prayer, as I said, is whether or not public prayer in a Sunday morning worship is an issue of authority.

It might be beneficial to go back and read the whole discussion where all these things were mentioned.

You seem to miss the point that you are asking everyone else to define whether prayer qualifies as an issue of authority, and you have offered no thoughts on that subject other than to continue referring to a passage which never mentions prayer.

I did offer some thoughts here, namely, that I hadn’t really thought about it. The point of the passage is that it addresses the ministry of women in the church, and prayer fits into that category it seems to me.

I have previously stated that prayer is not necessarily the exercise of authority if one is clearly demonstrating submission to said authority. Do you disagree? Why or why not?

I disagree that “clearly demonstrating submission to said authority” is a biblical category for the discussion of women teaching or exercising authority in the church. That is a category that, IMO, seems to be created by those who want to allow women to teach and exercise authority in the church. They use that exact kind of language of being “under the authority of the elders.”

Given the little thought I have put into it, I tend to think that “leading in prayer” is, by definition, leading, and therefore authoritative. I think other contexts of prayer aren’t.

Larry,

How do you perceive a difference between “leading in prayer” during the Sunday morning service being an act exercising authority but praying in a prayer corporate meeting on Wednesday night or even at a church pot luck not being an act exercising authority? Are you working on a gut instinct while you sort through the matter, or is there some specific detail that is pushing you toward this conclusion?

How do you perceive a difference between “leading in prayer” during the Sunday morning service being an act exercising authority but praying in a prayer corporate meeting on Wednesday night or even at a church pot luck not being an act exercising authority? Are you working on a gut instinct while you sort through the matter, or is there some specific detail that is pushing you toward this conclusion?

Primarily because one (actually two, praying at a pot luck) are authoritative: the person is “leading” in prayer; the other is cooperative, people are praying together.