FYI (if you’re a teenage girl)

I’ve seen lots of discussion about this blog post on Facebook over the past few days. I think Mrs. Hall’s tone is kind and her message well-intentioned, but I think that she subscribes to a few fallacies—some fatal flaws—that shouldn’t be propagated unchallenged.

I found this response helpful (and its tone appropriate) in addressing a few of the things I saw as problematic:

http://putdowntheurinalcake.com/2013/09/dear-mrs-hall-regarding-your-fy…

Please, please tell me if I’m reading too much into what you’re saying here, but it looks like you’re suggesting that once a male sees a female in only a towel, he can only think of her in a sexual way. If so, YIKES. Also, NO. I made a phone call on this one, just to double check with one of the most rule-following, law-abiding, deeply-rooted-in-Christian-culture men I know… my father, former Marine, former missionary. And he said two things that stood out like flashing neon signs: 1) Although men certainly retain memories of seeing exciting things – “like I’ll never forget seeing my first Ferarri!” he said – it’s demeaning to men of any age to presume they can only see a woman as a sexual object once they’ve seen her in a state of undress, and 2) This shifts an unreasonable burden of responsibility to young women for ensuring men don’t view them sexually.

Another post I found helpful—much more helpful than Mrs. Hall’s—was one written by a father about how he’d address these issues with his son(s). (FWIW, it’s dated August 14, 2013, so it doesn’t appear to be a response to Mrs. Hall.) Wouldn’t say I agree with 100% of what Nate Pyle says in this post, but I think his perspective is very helpful in combating some fatal flaws in how conservative Christians often approach the modesty issue. Just a sampling:

Unfortunately, much of how the sexes interact with each is rooted in fear. Fear of rejection, fear of abuse, fear of being out of control. In some ways, the church has added to this. We fear each other because we have been taught the other is dangerous. We’ve been a taught a woman’s body will cause men to sin. We’re told that if a woman shows too much of her body men will do stupid things. Let’s be clear: a woman’s body is not dangerous to you. Her body will not cause you harm. It will not make you do stupid things. If you do stupid things it is because you chose to do stupid things. So don’t contribute to the fear that exists between men and women.

- See more at: http://natepyle.com/seeing-a-woman/#sthash.pXmlnCkz.dpuf

I too disagreed with some of Mrs. Hall’s statements which seemed to not take into consideration male responsibility, (hopefully) increasing maturity, and the idea that men can’t unthink certain things. There is no doubt that a man’s mind is a dangerous minefield of sinful lusts and desires. This is not only experience talking, but the Scriptures description of a “deceitfully wicked heart.” John Owen is indeed correct that we must be killing sin or it will be killing us and that we cannot think for a moment that we are done mortifying sin.

I am very thankful that Mrs. Hall is encouraging young women to cover up. I struggle with responses that suggest that there is no responsibility in a young woman not flaunt her body and if a guy has sinful thoughts, its his problem not hers. It is more likely both of their problems to greater and lesser degrees. For example, the girl who is playing a sport and her shorts or shirt flares up or some other thing and a boy sees that and dives into lustful thinking… be controlled man, look away. A girl who dresses provocatively to be noticed by boys… God is serious about those who lead others toward sin. It is a real problem in both areas in our culture today.

I also am very thankful for the spirit of Mrs. Hall in telling girls, what it seems like a lot of fathers and mothers are afraid to do, that their actions, including what they wear (or don’t wear) is important. And also for the responsible nature in “deleting” social media friends and posts. Indeed, more parents need to not brush off such behaviors as youthful indiscretions or “but she has a really good heart” and take to heart what Job said, “I have made a covenant with my eyes, why then should I look upon a young woman.”

But what I was bothered by was what many of the commenters were also bothered by. The pictures of her boys in to some degree a state of undress. I am a brother to three sisters, I have a wife and one daughter, my wife’s sister lived with us as a single woman for a few years (now recently married), our youth group is filled with young ladies. It is a matter of fact that young women are sexually attracted to the physical features of young men and particularly the shirtless male flexing. Should men never flex, no. But it is high time that we pulled our heads out of the sand and realized that lust is not just a young man’s problem, it is a young woman’s problem too. And not just emotionally, but raw, physical lustful attraction. It is true that men are more likely to be quickly aroused and tempted by immoral dress, body language, etc of young women. But studies have shown that pornography viewing by women is on the rise aggressively. Watch any commercial for aftershave, axe cologne, etc. and it is obvious that they are appealing to women with men in a state of undress. I know that my physic poses very little problem to women lusting after me (I could stand to lose a few pounds), but we seek to be consistent in our home, our boys where swimming shirts when they go to the pool.

I do not for a second think Mrs. Hall was intentional in this or think down upon her or her family. I am concerned that we seek to be consistent when we speak of modesty to both genders, the over-sexualization of our culture is both a male and female problem because it is a sin problem.

The author did qualify her statement saying those images are not “quickly” forgotten. I think that’s pretty accurate. I noticed she also accepted admonition and changed the pictures accompanying the post. Seems like a pretty good article that’s pretty well done at this point.

“Hey mom, all the girls on my FB account just unfriended me!”

The blogger has changed out the pictures .. and she noted that ..

I agree that boys/men DO have a responsibility - but as a mom to two (now men) boys - I feel she was pretty on target.

It amazes me how both young women AND men seem to take these “cheesecake” shots .. and it’s in Christian circles too. My sister and I were commenting on it a few months back -

We can talk all we want about boys/men being responsible for what they look at .. but there IS a responsibility on the part of girls/women as well .. there’s a huge difference in “clothing malfunction” in the wind - and taking a picture trying to look like something out of a “men’s magazine”..

and one more thing… this is an aside - but the whole “selfie” thing drives me nuts .. It seems to be all “hey look at me” .. just don’t get it..

Paul used shame to help the Corinthians. You should consider that when you state that the use of shame is not maturity. The use of shame doesn’t mean a person is immature.

didn’t see any scripture foundation for any of hall’s “wisdom”, but i had always assumed the primary text for this sort of thing was matt 5:28 where men were having a problem thinking about women in potato sacks. jesus’ solution wasn’t to tell the women to wear better potato sacks. he puts the burden squarely on those who apparently thought that as long as they didn’t actually do the deed, any and every fantasy was fair game.

[handerson] One of the things that bothered me about this post (besides what others have pointed out) was the heavy-handed, passive aggressive style. It was a classic example of an older woman shaming a younger woman. Now, I grant you, I’ve seen my fair share of young women that need to be taught to be more conscientious about their dress and comportment, but the very fact that they are not is part and parcel with their youth. As an older woman in a position to guide and mentor them, I can tell you that shaming will not result in spiritual growth. Sadly, it’s precisely the approach that many leaders take in church and Christian school situations when modesty guidelines need to be enforced. The younger woman may need to be corrected but you don’t use your position or knowledge to shame her. This is not maturity either.

I agree that a much better approach would be to help young women deal with the root issues of why they publish dozens of pictures of themselves, and provocative pictures to boot.

I have a 15 yo daughter who is getting more gorgeous by the day, and we have to have many, many talks about the correct, Biblical meanings of beauty, allure, and sexuality, and how God intends women to view themselves in the light of His Word. Just scolding her about men and lust and implying that she might even be responsible for inciting men to violent acts doesn’t give her a meaningful Scriptural picture of her standing and purpose in Christ.

As Christians, we are responsible to each other, to be an example to other believers, and to the world, of our new creatureness in Christ. But that responsibility ends where the other person’s will begins.

Young men have their own vanity issues to deal with as well, they just don’t usually take the form of selfies in their underwear. Unless they are politicians. :/

Susan, the options are not to ignore the problem or scold her. Shame is a useful tool when appropriately used. Again, Paul used it.

God does indeed hold women responsible for dressing in a manner to incite. To say otherwise is to ignore much of scripture on this matter and to speak as a fool.

I think the issue is how much we can assume about what a teen age girl understands about what she is doing. Shaming itself is not out of bounds but Mrs. Hall assumes that the girl acted with full knowledge and full volition in trying to be seductive and shamed her for that. The reality is that most young girls are more ignorant than anything else. They want to be “attractive” but the world has offered them such a skewed view of what is “attractive” that they have little way of understanding what is appropriate and what is not.

The difference for me is how we approach teenagers— do we assume that a 15 year old girl bears the same responsibility as a bar- hopping thirty year old? I don’t for the simple fact that a teenager is still a child in many ways. As I told a friend just this evening, I don’t shame my child for not reading if I haven’t taught him how to read. I correct him. I teach him. On the other hand, if he is simply being lazy and doesn’t want to read, I will discipline him and possible use appropriate shame. The difference is his knowledge and what I understand him to be capable of. Mrs. Hall assumed that a young girl was intentionally posting pics in order to be provocative, judged her accordingly, and cut her off.

If a 15 y/o isn’t aware that shots of her in barely any clothes or braless or in a towel could cause a problem, then maybe she isn’t mature enough to handle facebook, her own camera, etc. I approach teenagers the way I would an adult, since that is presumably what we want them to act like.

I agree with James K.

Even Christians have accepted the silly notion that a 15 year old is still a child. Taking selfies of provocative poses wearing just a towel is the behavior of someone who is aware of their sexuality and is seeking approval and attention.

If young men or young women are not aware of the effects their action in the area of human sexuality can have, by the time they are 15, the biggest problem we have is the parents, who are treating their sons and daughters as little children, instead of teaching them to act as young adults.

I think, maybe, there’s a middle ground here. I am convinced most 15 yo girls understand sexuality and seduction - to a point. I don’t think they have a full understanding of its extensive power yet. It is naive or foolish to think they have no idea, but just as much to think they have a full understanding.

I agree with Chip. But I would also like to put a reminder. I think we should still put our focus on reminding men (young and old) that no matter what a lady is wearing or not wearing, the brunt of the responsibility for lust (or acting on lust) lies with us. I guess in other words, we need to man up and take responsibility for our self-control! :) Yes modesty is a Biblical issue, and we should teach it for both men and women. But we men must find ways to exercise Biblical self-control in less modest world.