19 Brides and Grooms, 19 Cakes, One Ceremony

And stuff like this makes me wonder, as a single person myself — what’s the point of waiting? People don’t seem to mind this kind of sin as long as you eventually make it right, even church people. Maybe it’s abusing the extravagant grace of Jesus (which I admittedly abuse myself sometimes, to my shame).

I’m waiting, at age 31, as a never married person, and I’m a rarity. I’ve never been divorced, never had a baby out of wedlock, etc. And yet the people around me (good Christian people) who’ve done these things usually end up getting married again and having a happy, fulfilling union.

It’s definitely my devil’s advocate talking, but why not follow in their steps? Seems to work for them!

(yes, that’s definitely devil’s advocate. I’ll keep waiting :)

I don’t think we should look at it as them saying it was OK to be shacked up. Just the opposite. The effort to get them to marry says “It’s not OK to shack up.” If they thought it was OK, they’d have left it alone.
So… I’m all for waiting, of course, but should these couples have continued to fornicate? What else can a repentant sinner do but move forward? I’m trying, but I can’t see much of a downside to this.

A church that has 19 couples, some living together (are they sleeping together as well?) outside of marriage…*looks around for the Holy Spirit’s presence on this one*.

I didn’t see anything that said they were believers, though they may be disobedient believers. Sometimes believers sin too … and do it in big ways. In a big church that is growing (which this one is judging by it’s list of staff), it would not be unlikely at all to have 40 couples unmarried and living together. In a small church of 100 people, that sounds huge. In a church of several thousand, it’s not that many. You might have hundred first time guests every Sunday.

In a church that is growing and reaching people, you are going to have these problems. What do you do? The very fact that the pastor brought it up means they are not accepting it. They are calling on these couples to do what is right.

People don’t seem to mind this kind of sin as long as you eventually make it right, even church people.

What’s the alternative? Not make it right? Of course you wouldn’t say that, and I agree. How do you make it right? It seems in most cases you make it right by getting married, don’t you? The fact that the pastor brought it up means he does mind this kind of sin, and he provided a biblical solution, it seems to me.

[Larry]

People don’t seem to mind this kind of sin as long as you eventually make it right, even church people.

What’s the alternative? Not make it right? Of course you wouldn’t say that, and I agree. How do you make it right? It seems in most cases you make it right by getting married, don’t you? The fact that the pastor brought it up means he does mind this kind of sin, and he provided a biblical solution, it seems to me.

I think there is always a danger of being the ‘older brother’ when someone who has been living a ‘clean’ life sees the Big Bad Sinner repent and the subsequent rejoicing and ‘fuss’ that is made over them.

It’s like “What- don’t I get a cake too for being a Good Person?”

I actually had a problem with this attitude when my husband repented of his alcoholism and adultery (note this all you single women dying to be married-marriage is just a brand new set of challenges and solves nothing). He spent 6 years out in the pig pen while I kept the kids in church and remained faithful and loving (well, most of the time I was loving- I’m only human). It seemed that when he got right, everyone was happy, and life just went on like nothing happened. Even though things were much MUCH better in our home, and I was rejoicing, I really wanted him to grovel at my feet and have to do dishes for a year.

Let’s hope and pray that the counseling these couple submitted to helps them make it, because they already have strikes against them. Don’t studies show that shack-up couple have a higher rate of divorce? And whatya’ wanna’ bet that there are some kids involved in this equation who now have a married Mommy and Daddy?

Here’s to hoping they live Happily Ever After. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-love025.gif

I wonder how many of these couples were church members. Also, what about church members (if there are any) who refused the offer? What is happening with them. I had a couple attend an evangelistic service last night at our church. I found out that they are living together. The girl claims to be saved. The boy does not. We gave them both the gospel and are praying for their salvation. However, I could not allow a couple living together to be granted church membership, despite any profession of faith. It would send a terrible message to the other young people in the church.

I also applaud the decision - it seems creative, utilitarian, and Biblical all wrapped into one. We’ve all been places where there’s an elephant in the auditorium, as there seems to have been here, and the pastor seems to have reached a balanced conclusion that calls out the sin for what it is, brings people to a point of decision, and most importantly, doesn’t leave them hanging there. I’ve heard many sermons on the evils of thus-and-so but almost never heard it followed up with a “now, folks, if any of you are living in this sin, I would like to announce that we will be offering free one-on-one counseling for you; just email or call the church office to set up an appointment.” (I know it’s not that simplistic. But a lot of times I’ve felt like the shepherd just whipped the sheep and wandered off to Ryan’s for the afternoon, leaving the sheep on their own to recover however best they know how, rather than taking the time to actually help them.) And he removed one of the biggest obstacles - finances - to allow for a smooth road to recovery for those in that sin.

I’m with Aaron - if there’s a downside, I can’t see it.

The Rev. Bryan Carter’s eyes will not be tricking him Sunday when 19 couples face him to exchange vows in a mass wedding.

Concord Missionary Baptist Church and volunteer sponsors are paying all expenses, covering gowns, tuxedos, wedding bands, decorations and 19 cakes. The church has provided counseling and is exploring overnight hotel stays for brief honeymoons.

This largess of commitment results from the sermon series, “The Real Flava of Love,” which Carter preached at the church, where he is pastor.

Look, I may sound like the original older brother here, but I’m not really sure that this is a great idea. The pastor means well, that’s for sure…but is it really the job of the church to provide physical and financial incentives for people to do the right thing? Sinners who repent and get married aren’t any closer to the Kingdom of Heaven simply because they got married - if they aren’t saved, then it doesn’t matter what their marital status is.

[edit]
I understand the expense - my wife and I had a tiny wedding that we could only afford because a lot of her friends helped us. But all we really had to do was shell out for the marriage license and the rings. If a person is serious about dealing with their sin and obeying Christ, I think that they’d find a way to get this done, big and fancy wedding or not. Frankly, I think that the pastor should have addressed the materialistic presuppositions that were causing them to delay the wedding ceremonies rather than just offering to pay for them ‘so they can be right’.

This situation, IMHO, says more about the sorry state of preaching and the church than it does about anything else.

Maybe a good thing, but I would be curious to know what was covered in prenup counseling. I get the impression the immorality of the living together is proclaimed by the pastor/church, but were the 19 required to own it? What part did repentance play in all of this? How many of the 19 took the church up on the offer primarily because it gave them an inexpensive way to get a church wedding—you know, the “Hey! A free wedding!!?? Sounds like a no-brainer to me!!” response? [I wonder how many of the guys talked the girls into it!! Seems like a guy response, doesn’t it?] Does signing on a dotted line after an unrepentant immoral couple recite their vows cause the sin to go away? If the sinful heart hasn’t changed, it will surely manifest itself in unseemly ways after the knot is tied.

As with most of these novel ideas, time will tell what the real fruit will be—for the church, the couples, and the youth.

[Jay C] The pastor means well, that’s for sure…but is it really the job of the church to provide physical and financial incentives for people to do the right thing?

Whether the pastor is providing incentives (a “value-added proposal” to use the appropriate buzzwords) or simply removing obstacles seems pretty subjective and would ultimately rest on his motives and the motives of the people taking him up on the offer. To me it’s kind of like an allowance. When I was younger the only way I’d sweep the floor or do the dusting was if there was some cash in it, and the more I did the more I got. As I matured I started doing those things for a variety of other reasons - to help out, because they needed to be done, because it was expected of me. But that didn’t happen until I grew up a little. Maybe the couples in this church fit that model. I do find it interesting that just under half of the folks who responded to the initial challenge finished the counseling and went through with the marriage. I have no idea why 21 couples dropped out but if it was a month-long counseling session you almost have to wonder if at least some of those were in it just for the free wedding and decided it was too much work.

Lots of unknowns, and ultimately it’ll take a few years to see how wise this decision actually was. But given this or the alternative of just railing against cohabitation and not providing any suggestions on how to get out or make it right, I suspect most people here would make the same decision. Might not have been the *best* decision but it was *a* decision that maintained the momentum of the preaching series, and if the pastor is smart he can direct the momentum as needed.

:edit:

Hopefully I didn’t just reopen the “I’m not mature enough to get married” debate again…

I had a couple who had been living together for a long time get married within the last year. They did premarital counseling and seperated for a time. I can’t tell you the joy of when they made this right. This Sunday, Lord willing they are joining the church. A couple of weeks ago she taught the kids in our weekly kids meeting. It was has been a long and sometimes messy process. But God has been good!

[Jim Peet] Pastors face situations “dealt to them”.

You had in this church a number of couples living in sin. The question is “What does repentance look like for the sin of cohabitation (fornication + sharing a household)?”

I suggest that for people who are committed to each other, that marriage might just be the legitimate outworking of inward repentance!

About the “financial incentives”, $500 to cover a wedding looks more like sincere help than an incentive.

Actually, the article says:

Concord Missionary Baptist Church and volunteer sponsors are paying all expenses, covering gowns, tuxedos, wedding bands, decorations and 19 cakes. The church has provided counseling and is exploring overnight hotel stays for brief honeymoons.

My other point is that when you read their comments, it seems [to me anyway] that they had no idea that what they were doing was wrong even though they were attending the church for a while. If there was a couple living together in my church, I’d want to individually talk with them and lay out all the options/possibilities if they planned to continue attending or become members [although I really can’t afford to chase anyone away right now ;)]. Seems to me that is what any pastor should want to do, not wait until it got so bad that he had to address is it from the pulpit.

Look at the comments in the article:

Denise James said she and her fiance, LaPrie Townsend, were amazed as they sat in the audience. They live together but planned to marry later. They had followed the series, but the challenge shocked them.

“We looked at each other and our jaws dropped,” James said. They whispered to each other and decided to meet with the pastor.

“We wanted to marry but didn’t have the resources to do it like we wanted to,” Townsend said. “All I can say is I’m grateful.”

Raymond Adams and his fiancee, Heidi Mathis-Bayley, said Carter’s offer stunned them, too. They said living together helped them financially, but they wrestled with the morality and planned to marry in the future.

“I knew immediately,” Mathis-Bayley said, “but we couldn’t discuss it sitting there.” Outside at the car they decided to go back and talk with the pastor.

“I wanted to make a sound decision, and I wanted to be obedient to God,” Adams said.