Justice, Wrath, and Propitiation
I thought I’d check back and see how Andre’ was doing in his Battle Royal. I see he still stands. As a matter of fact he doesn’t look that tired. His opponents are less energetic. Some still mock but their best is ineffectual. Most have been deposited over the top rope. Others run about the ring hoping to last by avoiding real battle. It is a fine show.
Don, you are presenting our arguments dishonestly. No one said that Jesus was abandoned on the cross. We are saying that Jesus felt forsaken by God at the moment he took on our sins on the cross. He wasn’t merely quoting Scripture.
You replied to Wayne with a list of all the things that Christ’s death accomplished. And once again, we cannot disprove them because they are true. And once again you are trying to say that one thing negates the other, when you have not proven that they do. The two are not mutually exclusive ideas.
[Don Sailer]I have stated all of this before and you don’t know what I think Jesus’ death and life accomplished? Really?
Brother Don, I understand what you think His death accomplished, but what I don’t see is how His death accomplished these things apart from the one thing you reject – penal substitution. If you cut the heart out of the body, the body has no life. You have cut the heart out of Christ’s saving work, but somehow delight in all it’s effects. How can we be reconciled to God while our sin condemns us? How is our debt to justice satisfied? That I don’t understand from everything you’ve written. I can’t imagine how you explain it to others.
But I guess Psalm 34:15-20 is wrong. The righteous really are forsaken by God.
I think you are seriously misusing Psalm 35. Jesus is both righteous in Himself and became sin for us. That’s the whole idea of His being a spotless sacrifice, the just for the unjust. He is not unrighteous, but our sin is imputed to Him and He bears the penalty of it. Why is that hard to understand? As the sin-bearer, He is treated as unrighteous, as I deserve to be, and it seems from His own cry that He experienced the penalty as we deserve to experience it. But through it all He was righteous. He became sin, but did not become a sinner. Jesus, the Righteous One, was delivered once satisfaction was made. Once His atoning work was done, His fellowship with the Father was restored, and he could submit His spirit to Him with a full heart, and be received. The Lord did hear and accept His righteous Son, but the work had to be accomplished to satisfy divine justice, and it was.
The great rule of systematic theology is to account for all the relevant biblical data. I don’t think you do that, so you miss something not only precious, but central to the faith.
Jeffery, you haven’t provided any contribution to this topic. Don’s persistence does not mean he is correct. Merely that he is persistent. Our seeming to be less energetic doesn’t mean that we are less correct. It merely means that some of the people here have gotten tired of writing things that Don will not address properly, and others know that Don will not change his mind, no matter how well put our argument is.
You seem to be falling into the trap that Don falls into. Trying to give the impression that his idea contradicts our ideas(mutually exclusivity), when they do not.
Don (and I think you also) will never agree with us, until we show him a bible verse that says “Jesus suffered the wrath of God”. He knows we never will, so he thinks he has won the argument.
But as any good bible scholar knows, there are many doctrines(ideas) in Scripture that are not proven with a single verse. (e.g. the Trinity, Perseverance of the Saints, Eschatology, etc)
Wayne, this is a great statement:
I believe this profound narrative is intended to drive me to conclude the Lord Jesus is experiencing what I deserve as a sinner – to be forsaken by God
As my Substitute, Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Wayne, this is a great statement:
I believe this profound narrative is intended to drive me to conclude the Lord Jesus is experiencing what I deserve as a sinner – to be forsaken by God
As my Substitute, Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Don, have you ever prayed to God for something you didn’t have? Does that mean you think God does not provide for all of your needs? Have you ever prayed that God would bring justice or right a wrong? Does that mean you think that God is unjust? Of course not!
In the same way, Jesus crying to God and saying “.. Why have you forsaken me?” does not mean that God had abandoned him. It merely reflects how Jesus felt at that moment.
[Wayne Wilson][Don Sailer]I have stated all of this before and you don’t know what I think Jesus’ death and life accomplished? Really?
Brother Don, I understand what you think His death accomplished, but what I don’t see is how His death accomplished these things apart from the one thing you reject – penal substitution. If you cut the heart out of the body, the body has no life. You have cut the heart out of Christ’s saving work, but somehow delight in all it’s effects. How can we be reconciled to God while our sin condemns us? How is our debt to justice satisfied? That I don’t understand from everything you’ve written. I can’t imagine how you explain it to others.
The heart of Christ’s saving work is his righteous life (Romans 5:9-10). It is in his life that we are saved from God’s wrath. You just can’t accept the nature of the atoning sacrifice “for our sins” (1 John 2:2, 4:10). He covered our sins so that God in Christ is reconciled to the world. Now everyone can be reconciled to God if they only believe in Christ. The Scriptures do explain the how. When Christ covered our sins on the cross, the barrier to reconciliation with God was removed. You can now be reconciled (2 Corinthians 2:20). When you believe in Christ he intercedes for you at the Father’s right hand with his own blood (Hebrews 9:12). You are forgiven and you receive his righteousness.
When Christ condemned sin in sinful man, he did so by covering our sins by his blood. Our sins no longer condemn us. Now God no longer counts our sins against us (2 Cor. 2:19). The barrier to reconciliation is removed. We can be reconciled.
“How is our debt to justice satisfied?” It is pardoned. It is forgiven. We are no longer in prison (Gal. 3:22-23).
If our sins no longer condemn us, and God no longer counts our sins against us, then how can anyone be justly condemned? If this statement is true, nobody goes go Hell.
G. N. Barkman
[christian cerna]Don, you are presenting our arguments dishonestly. No one said that Jesus was abandoned on the cross. We are saying that Jesus felt forsaken by God at the moment he took on our sins on the cross. He wasn’t merely quoting Scripture.
You replied to Wayne with a list of all the things that Christ’s death accomplished. And once again, we cannot disprove them because they are true. And once again you are trying to say that one thing negates the other, when you have not proven that they do. The two are not mutually exclusive ideas.
How do you know that Jesus felt forsaken when he quoted Psalm 22:1?
Jesus also stated, “I am thirsty” (John 19:28), and according to Scripture he did so “knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Apparently, Jesus said “I thirst,” not because he was thirsty but to fulfill Scripture. And yet we aren’t supposed to believe that Jesus quoted from Psalm 22:1 for the same reason? To point out that Scripture (Psalm 22) is being fulfilled?
I think I will stick with Scripture.
[Wayne Wilson][Don Sailer]I have stated all of this before and you don’t know what I think Jesus’ death and life accomplished? Really?
But I guess Psalm 34:15-20 is wrong. The righteous really are forsaken by God.
I think you are seriously misusing Psalm 35. Jesus is both righteous in Himself and became sin for us. That’s the whole idea of His being a spotless sacrifice, the just for the unjust. He is not unrighteous, but our sin is imputed to Him and He bears the penalty of it. Why is that hard to understand? As the sin-bearer, He is treated as unrighteous, as I deserve to be, and it seems from His own cry that He experienced the penalty as we deserve to experience it. But through it all He was righteous. He became sin, but did not become a sinner. Jesus, the Righteous One, was delivered once satisfaction was made. Once His atoning work was done, His fellowship with the Father was restored, and he could submit His spirit to Him with a full heart, and be received. The Lord did hear and accept His righteous Son, but the work had to be accomplished to satisfy divine justice, and it was.
The great rule of systematic theology is to account for all the relevant biblical data. I don’t think you do that, so you miss something not only precious, but central to the faith.
Answered numerous times already. You are reading into Scripture what is not there.
[Ron Bean]Wayne, this is a great statement:
I believe this profound narrative is intended to drive me to conclude the Lord Jesus is experiencing what I deserve as a sinner – to be forsaken by God
As my Substitute, Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner.
Are you serious? Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner? Are you kidding? I deserve eternal conscious punishment. If Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner he would have to suffer eternal conscious punishment in my place!
[G. N. Barkman]If our sins no longer condemn us, and God no longer counts our sins against us, then how can anyone be justly condemned? If this statement is true, nobody goes go Hell.
Christ condemned sin in sinful man so that the righteous requirements of the law “might” be fully met in us (Romans 8:3-4). Some of you need to read the passages for yourselves. If you do, you will find your answer.
God no longer counts our sins against us. This means that there is no barrier to being reconciled to God. So Paul implores, “Be reconciled.” How? Believe in Christ. Refusal to believe in Christ and his sacrifice results in “being condemned already” (John 3:17). Those who reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ can expect judgment and a raging fire (Hebrews 10:26-27, 29).
Our sins no longer condemn us only when Christ intercedes for us on our behalf with his own blood (Hebrews 9:24, 7:25).
His atoning sacrifice covers our sins (God is reconciled to man). His intercession pardons or forgives our sins (man is reconciled to God).
How do you know that Jesus felt forsaken when he quoted Psalm 22:1?
Jesus also stated, “I am thirsty” (John 19:28), and according to Scripture he did so “knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Apparently, Jesus said “I thirst,” not because he was thirsty but to fulfill Scripture. And yet we aren’t supposed to believe that Jesus quoted from Psalm 22:1 for the same reason? To point out that Scripture (Psalm 22) is being fulfilled?
I think I will stick with Scripture.
Now, Don, you’re just being silly. Jesus wasn’t thirsty either? So the prophecy wasn’t given because he would actually be thirsty, but so He could say “I thirst”? What about Psalm 22:15?
Do you believe His crucifixion hurt? Do you believe He was truly human?
As for the matter of Jesus feeling forsaken, I believe Jesus felt forsaken based on the question He asked. Remember the question? “Why have You forsaken Me?” The question suggests that He noticed in some significant way that He was forsaken. It is indeed much like His thirst. He said “I thirst” because He was very, very thirsty (a result of being crucified) and it fulfilled prophecy. He asked about being forsaken because He felt forsaken, and it points to Psalm 22.
Don, I think I have the here the pebble that will break your house of glass. Read the following:
Mark 15:33-41
And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
Don, if Jesus was only quoting Psalm 22 in order for the Pharisees to hear him, he didn’t do a very good job. In fact, he failed. The people that heard him thought he was calling for the prophet Elijah.
Discussion