Should Pastors Know How Much Church Members Give?

DLCreed,

One could argue that Jay might be demonstrating character by not wanting to put himself in the path of temptation unnecessarily.

Keith

One of the reasons I prefer not to know what people give is that I wish to remain above reproach and to avoid even the appearance of evil where I can. Let me explain.

I see this issue as analogous to other issues I face as pastor. For example, although I think I could be trusted to handle the church’s money, I choose not to have any ability to access the church’s funds without asking approval from at least one other elder and at least one deacon. This simply removes the temptation for me, but my main concern is to remain above reproach. In a ministry in which false accusations seem to come easy for disgruntled people, they simply cannot ever accuse me of personally misusing church funds when everybody and his brother knows full well that I have no access to them.

I also have a policy of never being alone in a room or car, etc., with a woman who is not my wife. And I have adopted this policy not so much because I am so fearful that I might succumb to temptation but rather because of how others might be tempted to view it. Again, in a ministry in which false accusations seem to come easy for disgruntled people, they simply cannot ever accuse me of impropriety in this area if there is absolutely no time that such impropriety could occur.

In a similar way, I prefer not to know what people give so that no one can ever accuse me of favoritism based on such knowledge (the very kind of accusation floating around a number of churches I attended as I was growing up).

To be sure, we will never be able to remove every possible thing that a person might try to use against us to make an accusation, but I am going to do my best to live above reproach and to avoid even the appearance of evil to take away any and every possible weapon the enemy might try to use against me. I certainly don’t want to adopt any policies that will make his job any easier!

Just some mroe to think about.

Keith

Keith…

I’m grading papers tonight and to break the tedium, I pop into a few of my favorite sites every few Research Papers. I know it’s strange, but effective for me, at least. So this won’t be a thorough response. This definitely isn’t a hill I’m willing to die on, but I do enjoy the debate and in the end, each must be guided by their conscience. One last point of clarification before I raise a counter, I did not have you or your setting personally in mind — I was just regurgitating my standard talking points.

I respect your rationales and how you describe the elders in your church would be almost precisely the position of most elders in our church. (I’m a practical elder, but have chosen not to be a voting elder because of my role as an Executive Pastor. Which is kind of odd, because we almost never have votes, but at least it’s got semantic distance.)

One counter I would make is to raise the specter of legalism. When a policy is made such as this, it can (not saying it DOES, but can) become legalistic or lead in that direction. You kind of made my point. If we are interested in protecting our reputations as elders, why not codify ALL of the potential weak areas. Here are a few I’ve seen raised beyond “not seeing who gives” or as you mentioned “not being alone with a woman in a car/office, etc…” — one which I practice. (Billy Graham would not even get in an elevator with a woman.) “Not attending movies lest someone think the elder is watching something wicked”, “not going to a restaurant that serves liquor”, “not being seen without a tie (I’m serious)”, “not going to amusement parks”, “not playing sports on Sundays”, “not drinking alcohol ever (again, one of my personal ones), “not attending any concerts/plays”, “not reading after certain authors (lest weaker Christians see the books in the office and think they are ‘OK’)”, “not traveling for more than 3 days without having your wife go with you lest you be morally tempted”, “not staying in a hotel where adult movies were an option on the TV”, “not owning a TV” and more.

Now, I think many of these are actually quite good protections. We each have SOME weaknesses or vulnerabilities based on our sin natures. Should that potential be put into policy and uniformaly applied for each elder? Maybe we can think of some more like “not being alone with a guy” (I mean, we’ve all heard stories, right?), not reading fiction, not using Craig’s List, not driving a new car and many more. (I’m really good at coming up with legalistic rules as a recovering pharisee.)

So, I really don’t have a problem with someone saying, “I want to stay above board in XYZ area.” I’m just suspicious of our tendencies to think that policies will actually solve anything.

Thanks for the engagement!

Dan

“That thine alms may be in secret; and thy Father which seeth it in secret himself shall reward thee openly.”

The reason for this verse is negated when a parishioner knows the pastor is watching.

“The only people that generally have a problem are the people who don’t give or who are cynical toward the pastor”

This is quite the ironic statement You talk about cynical.

Dan,

You are correct about avoiding legalism. Of course, most of the other matters you have mentioned usually involve pastors who are already in legalistic churches. I don’t think anyone in our church would ever dream of thinking ill of me, for example, because they saw me go into a movie theater.

I would also point out that I never mentioned “codifying” anything. We elders chose a policy of not knowing what other people give for a number of reasons, one of which for me personally was to stay above reproach. The other two policies I mentioned were simply my own. I have not demanded that anyone else follow my way of doing things. And the areas in which I have adopted such policies are not trivial ones, such as wearing a tie or going to a movie or playing sports, etc. I would also note again that, where these more trivial issues tend to be raised is in contexts that already have a tendency toward legalism and not in most ministry settings, at least not in my experience over the years. The issues of sexual morality and money are two really big issues in Scripture — not just in the minds of people who want to raise issues to a level that is not warranted by Scripture — and they are potential problems anywhere and everywhere I have ever been.

So, just because trivial issues can be blown out of proportion and made to seem serious doesn’t mean that genuinely serious issues should potentially be trivialized.

Keith

You made good points, Barry. Thanks.

Keith

[Barry L.]

“That thine alms may be in secret; and thy Father which seeth it in secret himself shall reward thee openly.”

The reason for this verse is negated when a parishioner knows the pastor is watching.

“The only people that generally have a problem are the people who don’t give or who are cynical toward the pastor”

This is quite the ironic statement You talk about cynical.

Barry….like “judge not lest you be judged” and “He who is without sin cast the first stone”, I would say this verse ranks in the Top 10 of misused text proofs in Scripture. There are examples throughout OT and NT scripture of public giving and this is not a directive passage. You jerk it out of context to apply it to a church when Jesus was specifically dealing with the externalism of the Pharisees. If you are going to apply this passage as you have, to be intellectually and theologically honest, you must also infer that public prayers in church services, etc… are not permitted either. What are you going to do with the passage that speaks of “provoking one another through good works”?

My statement regarding “problem people” is based on 30 years of ministry leadership experience. Not once….not a single time, have I ever heard from someone who was a regular giver who was concerned that someone might know that that they gave. However, on multiple occasions, I have later discovered that someone who was loudly opposing a building campaign, a new position, a budget, etc… never gave a dime the previous year. (Albeit, I would have to concede that they could be giving in cash, but considering the size of cash offerings in this modern era, I doubt it.) If one would want to be cynical toward ministry or the “Sheep” — most pastors will tell you that we have far greater opportunities to reach that state than through giving reports.

Again, I emphasize, let each be convinced in their own mind. I’m fine with individuals, elders, churches, etc… having a “pastoral/elder blindfold” in regard to giving. I’m just pointing out other arguments for the sake of discussion.

Dan said:

like “judge not lest you be judged” and “He who is without sin cast the first stone”, I would say this verse ranks in the Top 10 of misused text proofs in Scripture. There are examples throughout OT and NT scripture of public giving and this is not a directive passage. You jerk it out of context to apply it to a church when Jesus was specifically dealing with the externalism of the Pharisees. If you are going to apply this passage as you have, to be intellectually and theologically honest, you must also infer that public prayers in church services, etc… are not permitted either. What are you going to do with the passage that speaks of “provoking one another through good works”?

When you’re right, you’re right.

On the other hand, Jesus’ teaching does warn us against the Pharisaical tendency we all have, so seeking to avoid the problems they had isn’t such a bad thing. I think we need to combine your comment here with your warning against legalism earlier.

“This notion of pastors not knowing how much people give is a recent development, born out of a materialistic, individualistic society. As a pastor, you’re the doctor of the congregation. You’ve got to be looking at diagnostic information, and there’s none better than financial giving.”
Jim Sheppard, CEO, Generis

I don’t disagree that if giving is an act of obedience, that a lack of giving could be an indication of disobedience that the pastor needs to address.

But practically speaking, how would this work? If all he knows is a dollar amount of how much people give to the church, how does he know if they are giving more or less than a “10% tithe” unless he also has access to their income information?

We are, in a sense, stewards of each other- we are to care for, bear burdens, and even rebuke each other. But how we do this requires an enormous amount of discernment and humility, and I think we are all a bit scared of what it really means to be in each other’s lives to the point where we are able to do this effectively. We are individualistic and embrace our right to privacy, and nobody is more all about privacy than I am. But at some point we have to let down our guard and let each other in if we want to be obedient to God’s commands to minister to each other.

Jeff,

I also work at/attend a church that practices the same governance of pastor/elder/bishop as it appears that you do. Some are vocational and others non-vocational, but all are Biblically qualified. Before someone is placed in leadership from small group leader to elder, they are interviewed and questioned on a variety of matters including financial support. It sounds like the approach in your church is very similar to ours and it is a wise process. No elder, other than me, has access to the giving records and I have been instructed very specifically not to give them information. If I were to become aware that someone had lied, I would go to them first and only after doing that (Matt. 18) would I be freed to bring it to the elders. This would be the process for any other sin as well.

Blessings….

Dan