The Gospel Coalition: Can God Save a Fundamentalist School?
[TylerR] I don’t agree with NIU’s music or the casual dress style they appear to bring to worship. However, they are a very conservative Bible College in a world which is sorely lacking in Biblical education.
Tyler -
I’m not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else, but what exactly would you prefer that the students wore to a college chapel? I mean, really?
Mike -
The singing at NIU was robust the day Dr. Olson announced the change in leadership. So what does that mean?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jay:
I’m NIU‘d out. Please forgive me if I am not interested in re-hashing something all over again.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Jay,
I mean that the students sang loudly, enthusiastically, from the heart, from the head, with reverential awe for the greatness of God, the purity of Christ, and centered on the tremendous gospel truths so dear to all of us. MBBC is a great school that I have endorsed and supported for 35 years. I highly recommend it. It is in better shape today than I have ever seen it.
Pastor Mike Harding
[KD Merrill]I disagree that the question is red herring-like, though I partially agree with the rest of this statement. The problem I see with it is your choice of the word “ensure” which is why I believe the principles you gave, though very good, to be inadequate to *prove* that the worship style traditionally used by fundamentalists is God honoring. Even if we do our best to follow those principles, I don’t see any way to *ensure* that what results is “well-pleasing to God.” At best, it’s an attempt, not a guarantee.Further, I must agree with Anne that there is disagreement on the exact application of those principles, and therefore even if your principles are followed, two different people using them could come to very different applications. Much of what we now accept as traditional worship resembled the cultures they came from, which were often times no better (and sometimes even apparently worse) than what we live with today. If difference in time allows us to use things that were once pretty close to their culture, then I’m curious which scriptural principle allows that.I’m also curious which emotions are those that are honoring to Christ. I can agree that just about all of our emotions can have inappropriate and sinful expression, but many of the negative emotions are also expressed by God: anger, hatred, jealousy, derision, which means they are not wrong in an absolute sense. In addition, though God does not express fear, there is a sense in which that emotion is also a positive for us, namely “the fear of the Lord.” I’m not sure how it’s completely possible in exact musical terms to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate forms of either the positive or negative emotions. I will agree that the music should fit the text to the ability we can make that determination, and that the text should be in line with scripture.The reason I asked the question I did, is *because* I’m traditional in my worship music choices. However, I’m unsatisfied with just “believing” my musical choices to be the right ones without adequate proof. I’m well aware that maybe I’m traditional because it makes me comfortable, or because that’s what I’ve grown up with, or because change “seems” wrong. I’ve stated many times on SI over the years that I make my choices by both association, appropriateness, and trying to stay away from worldliness. However, I know that all three of those can have pretty fuzzy boundaries, which is why even though I can use them (inexactly) to eliminate much modern music, I can’t pronounce all things that would be considered by some to be CCM as being wrong by any of the criteria I use for judgment.However, unless you can more specifically narrow down the way you apply your principles, and prove that your application of them is right and *ensures* that God is pleased with what you choose, I can’t see that your system can prove traditional music pleasing to God while other forms are not, even if you can use it (like I do) to eliminate some obvious choices.Red herring-like question, Dave. It’s incumbent on all believers to provide at the very least, Biblical principles to ensure that their approach is well-pleasing to God.
Dave Barnhart
[Mike Harding] I mean that the students sang loudly, enthusiastically, from the heart, from the head, with reverential awe for the greatness of God, the purity of Christ, and centered on the tremendous gospel truths so dear to all of us. MBBC is a great school that I have endorsed and supported for 35 years. I highly recommend it. It is in better shape today than I have ever seen it.
Mike,
I’m not trying to be stupid or anything, but that was what I took away from the NIU chapel service as well. So what does that mean? That you believe MBBC to be better because of…what, exactly?
You seem to be arguing that MBBC is objectively better on the basis of a subjective criteria. So I’m a little puzzled.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jay:
I pray this thread won’t denigrate into a “x is a better school” discussion. My overarching point is that MBBC is a vibrant, healthy, thriving school with a very bright future. The straw man that “fundamentalist schools are dying” is just that - a straw man. Enrollment is up, innovations are happening and the spirit of the students and faculty, from what I’ve gathered on occasional visits to campus and attendance at Convocation last week, is simply excellent.
Why is NIU allegedly struggling and MBBC thriving? I’m not in a position to make this analysis. I believe accreditation plays a large part, and undoubtedly leadership has as well. Beyond that, we’re on very tentative ground.
I don’t think we’ll achieve anything of substance by pursuing this a MBBC vs. NIU track any further.
Returning to the matter of fundamentalist schools in general; IPEDS says BJU has an enrollment of approx. 3600. Is this substantially down from previous years? I honestly don’t have any idea. Are fundamentalist schools in general really “dying” or is this just so much smoke and mirrors put forth by critics?
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
As we ponder the multitude of threads on NIU, I came across this from a wonderful book by Douglas McLachlan, Reclaiming Authentic Fundamentalism:
There are two opposite and equally destructive options open to us as Christians. One is to see no basis for separation at all. The other is to see every little difference as a basis for separation among God’s people. If the first option is a manifestation of naiveté, the second is a manifestation of heresy (133).
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Are you arguing that guys like Greg Long and I don’t practice separation or that we’re ‘manifesting heresy’ by because we use modern music in our services?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]Are you arguing that guys like Greg Long and I don’t practice separation or that we’re ‘manifesting heresy’ by because we use modern music in our services?
Interested to hear Tyler’s response, but I doubt McLachlan presented that in context as an either/or.
Everyone wants a revolution. No one wants to do the dishes.
@ Jay,
If I am reading the quote correctly, you could not have both possibilities apply to the same person. He is saying the two separation errors are too little separation (naive by holding error to close) or too much separation (heresy by pushing brothers away over nothing).
@ Tyler,
That book has been around for awhile (1993). It raised a lot of ire among IFB leadership when it came out, but it has been kind of a jumping off point for the young fundamentalists seeking balance over the last 20 years.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Jay,
I agree with McCune’s assessment of MBBC based on the criteria he laid out. NIU, as you noted, has an uncertain future. My guess, and it’s only an educated guess based on recent conversation I have had with former associates of the school, is that a change in the administration by the governing board was due to management issues and not over the philosophical direction of the school per se. Over a decade ago when Les Ollila retired from the presidency, the college had nearly 700 students and about 18 million in the bank. Next year they were budgeting for approximately 250 students with only a small financial cushion. I personally think (and I may be wrong here) that NIU is continuing to follow the trajectory that Matt and the board set several years ago. I don’t see that changing.
To be fair, nearly all the major fundamental colleges and seminaries have taken a hit in the last ten years, including BJU. BJU is at approximately 3200 fulltime students currently; nevertheless, their freshman class last year exceeded their enrollment goal of 950 new students. They expect this year’s freshman class to do the same based on their pre-enrollment numbers. They announced last year that they are seeking regional accreditation, have begun intercollegiate sports, and are hoping to start an ROTC program. All those things are helping BJU with their recruitment efforts. I agreed with those changes and I think they will help the school. I also agreed with the music statement that BJU recently published. All our schools need our prayers as they navigate the difficult challenges they face economically, culturally, politically, and theologically. Whatever changes come, pray that they be done carefully, wisely, and appropriately. The days are coming and to some degree are already here when the militant atheists, hedonists, and anarchists are going to attempt to destroy all vestiges of biblical Christianity in America.
Pastor Mike Harding
[Mike Harding]All our schools need our prayers as they navigate the difficult challenges they face economically, culturally, politically, and theologically. Whatever changes come, pray that they be done carefully, wisely, and appropriately. The days are coming and to some degree are already here when the militant atheists, hedonists, and anarchists are going to attempt to destroy all vestiges of biblical Christianity in America.
Agreed. Our churches need our prayers as well.
And when those days do come in totality, will we be more interested in quarreling over the presence of drums on the platform, or whether the president of a fundamentalist college attended a Big Daddy Weave concert?
Or will we be more interested in declaring the gospel against all odds? No matter what the cost may be.
Everyone wants a revolution. No one wants to do the dishes.
If I am reading the quote correctly, you could not have both possibilities apply to the same person. He is saying the two separation errors are too little separation (naive by holding error to close) or too much separation (heresy by pushing brothers away over nothing).
Chip - thanks for clarifying. I have to admit that I’m getting tired of being separated from by my conservative brethren over music.
Mike -
I agree with you on most of that; I would strongly disagree with you that NIU’s ‘downfall’ is linked solely to the music and cultural changes at the school. Material prosperity is not promised to those who are faithful, as Isaiah (sawn in two), the Apostles, and countless other martyrs have found out. I find it a little hard to believe that NIU is down to 250 students at this point, but the conservative side of the music debate is doing a good job of publicizing all of NIU’s shortfalls and issues.
My biggest concern at this point is that we need to be preparing US Christians for the persecution that is surely coming and that we already see in isolated pockets (Canada’s HRC commissions, the Obamacare mandates that force schools to violate their consciences, etc). When that happens, all of our arguments about the ‘right’ music will be swept away. At this point, some persecution might be a good thing for us.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jay wrote,
I have to admit that I’m getting tired of being separated from by my conservative brethren over music.
Without naming names, can you specify how people have separated from you?
Have they not invited you to speak at their church?
Have they been invited to speak at your church and declined?
Are they not singing songs that you write?
Do they not talk to you in private or on a public forum such as this blog?
How are people separating from you personally over music? Remember, disagreeing with you does not constitute separating.
What detriment is there? Maybe a college could be hurt, but an individual person or church? As long as you and your congregation are on the same page who cares about what outsiders say?
Discussion