The New Fundamentalism of “Religious Affections”

[dgszweda]

[Alex Guggenheim] Andrew It is called slang. But we will play dress-up and call it informal to make it as pretty as possible . And you and Shai wish to call this brilliance? I suppose you considered dividing fractions to be the work of geniuses. The praise of base and deconstruction as achievement continues onward. LOL.

Why is slang bad?

[Alex Guggenheim]

[dgszweda]

[Alex Guggenheim] Andrew It is called slang. But we will play dress-up and call it informal to make it as pretty as possible . And you and Shai wish to call this brilliance? I suppose you considered dividing fractions to be the work of geniuses. The praise of base and deconstruction as achievement continues onward. LOL.

Why is slang bad?

This alone tells me you aren’t paying attention. No one said it was bad and you respond as if someone did. Saying more only risks your further confusion.

You called them “pretend words”. Which means that you don’t feel they are real words.

[Alex Guggenheim] I can go further if you wish and cite more weak and dischordant properties which heavily populate rap’s form which are quite removed from brilliant.

You can, but in the end, it will be just your opinion. Just as you feel that the use of slang detracts from “brilliant”, while another individual will say that slang makes Mark Twain’s work “brilliant”.

[Andrew K.]

Slang itself often becomes standard, by the way. Have you ever used the words “blizzard” or “movie”? Ha! Brilliant!

And on that note, what makes you think the usage of slang precludes “brilliance”? Again, I see nothing more than linguistic prejudice here. Skill is manifest by working within a certain set of boundaries. Now I note you didn’t address the point I made, that Shai didn’t make up those words. But even if he did, so what? So did Shakespeare.

Now, much like another person commenting, where did I say it precludes brilliance? I did not. You should pay attention to what I say and what you import into what I say. Your not paying attention demonstrates to me that you do not value attendance to dialog which is critical to debate.

Rap’s oft contrived and conspicuous use of slang is but one of the many poor properties of this genre, much like parody and its use which does not preclude thoughtfulness but can based on the nature of its use. And rap is much more that of an inordinate application of slang along with being surrounded by the same discordant properties which produces quite the opposite of brilliance, just as an over use of parody and worse, parody used in an overall combative and hostile context, fails to yield propitious illumination and instead presents overstating and mockery. Such are not be mainstays in high or good art but rare or timely uses. And frankly the exaggerated use of slang in rap is the beginning of of many of rap’s beggarly and wanting elements.

[Andrew K.]

[Alex Guggenheim]

[Andrew K.]

Slang itself often becomes standard, by the way. Have you ever used the words “blizzard” or “movie”? Ha! Brilliant!

And on that note, what makes you think the usage of slang precludes “brilliance”? Again, I see nothing more than linguistic prejudice here. Skill is manifest by working within a certain set of boundaries. Now I note you didn’t address the point I made, that Shai didn’t make up those words. But even if he did, so what? So did Shakespeare.

Sometimes slang does become the standard but with rap it is precisely not the standard that is being sought, you miss the entire point of its use, its counter-culture employment. When it becomes the standard or is ratified by broad use, hence formalized, it is not slang. But if you wish to declare yourself brilliant for stating the obvious and irrelevant, have a party.

Now, much like another person commenting, where did I say it precludes brilliance? I did not. You should pay attention to what I say and what you import into what I say. Your not paying attention demonstrates to me that you do not value attendance to dialog which is critical to debate.

Rap’s oft contrived and conspicuous use of slang is but one of the many poor properties of this genre, much like parody and its use which does not preclude thoughtfulness but can based on the nature of its use. And rap is much more that of an inordinate application of slang along with being surrounded by the same discordant properties which produces quite the opposite of brilliance, just as an over use of parody and worse, parody used in an overall combative and hostile context, fails to yield propitious illumination and instead presents overstating and mockery. Such are not be mainstays in high or good art but rare or timely uses. And frankly the exaggerated use of slang in rap is the beginning of of many of rap’s beggarly and wanting elements.

No, I addressed the point of its use: an identity marker. Who isn’t paying attention to whom?

Andrew K. wrote:

Slang itself often becomes standard, by the way. Have you ever used the words “blizzard” or “movie”? Ha! Brilliant!

And on that note, what makes you think the usage of slang precludes “brilliance”?

I did not make reference or address you claim of its identity marker which is irrelevant in the first place when evaluating its high or low form or its brilliance or lack thereof.

If you have a germane response to my point(s), fine, but if you wish to contend about irrelevancy, I do not have time for that.

I am going to try this again, a few days removed from the original posting.

C.T. Studd is attributed as having said:

“Some want to live within the sound
Of church or chapel bell;
I want to run a rescue shop,
Within a yard of hell.”

I see Bob Bixby as having a similar kind of demeanor and approach here. I consider Bob a friend, and though I don’t see him often (which is realistically true of many of people I consider friends), I have always admired what I perceive to be his bold approach to ministry. We also share things in common- his church, as is ours, has a ministry relationship with Burmese refugees (he works with Karenni, our group is S’gaw Karen). We have both adopted children.

I consider Scott Aniol and some of the other guys who write for Religious Affections friends, too. I’ve had some of them speak in my church. I have though that their general approach to giving careful thought to serious worship and the affections bears consideration, and I have been grateful to take some things and apply them into our ministry setting here in Marshall.

Bob is very smart and well-read, but he’s not a perpetual academic. Bob has a lot of ground level experience. Scott, Ryan Martin, and others who write with him are finishing up doctorates, and approach things from a different perspective. I am not saying that they don’t have experience in real churches. One, for certain, serves in a congregation with a lot of different ethnicities (Dave DeBruyn in S. Africa). I think that they have different personalities and ministry priorities that fuel their perspectives.

I will also say that the landscape is changing. Scott is now an elder in an SBC church. I was intrigued to see some of the music selections used in Scott’s church. I wonder if Bob has seen some of this before he wrote his post.

I have given this a lot of thought over the last several days. I haven’t reached full conclusions on this, so this may seem meandering. I do know that some of those who identify to some degree with the philosophy of Religious Affections have on occasion made choices based on worship and liturgy prioritized over other matters of doctrine and practice (choosing a Presbyterian congregation with ideal liturgy over a Baptist one more influenced by a “popular sensibility,” for example). I know I went to Faith “MUST HAVE BAPTIST IN THE NAME” Bible College, but I do have people I consider friends who are not Baptist, and have even had a Presbyterian in my pulpit (Michael Barrett). I could visit a Presbyterian congregation and fellowship with them on some level as fellow believers.

At the same time, if I was going to live in a community and be part of a church, I could not be a part of a congregation like that. If I am talking to a neighbor or co-worker and lead him to Christ, I need to direct him to a place where he can follow the Lord in baptism and learn more than just the precise points of proper liturgical expression in a Sunday worship service. I can appreciate on one level debating the merits of weekly communion, but in the end, it’s not a boat I need to rock when there are more urgent ministry matters to consider.

Right now, how I’m looking at it is that RA provides food for thought, and helpful categories that assist me in thinking through how to be more intentional in making musical choices for my congregation. But the help they offer me, ultimately, is limited, because I am willing to be more flexible and accommodating in music, apparently, than their beliefs and principles as a whole allow them to be- even as some of them are apparently willing to be more broad and flexible in their ministry associations than I would be.

I value Bob Bixby’s creativity, candor, and dedication to ministry. I know less about Bob’s music choices, but I would guess he has a higher toleration for some things than I do. But as a fellow pastor, I have to say there are things I appreciate and admire about the way I have seen Bob serving.

One more thing- I suspect this discussion is more personal than anyone is admitting (and Bob has admitted some in his post)- but that is pure speculation on my part.

[Andrew K.]

[Alex Guggenheim] And? Somehow you conclude I feel their use is bad? The context was part of an illustration of the claim by Linne that rap is brilliant to be dubious. I can go further if you wish and cite more weak and dischordant properties which heavily populate rap’s form which are quite removed from brilliant. But the fact is RAM has such essays with which it appears few wish to interact, hence Ieave you to visit them and take on their volume

But since you wish to move on…

You give one illustration of how Shai’s rap is bad: the use of a few slang words. Then when people ask how that demonstrates inferiority, you say that, by itself, it doesn’t, and that isn’t what you were saying. Well then what are we supposed to address or argue against? What does demonstrate the lack of “brilliance”? You’ll pardon us if this is all seeming a bit vague and subjective.

[Greg Linscott]

I will also say that the landscape is changing. Scott is now an elder in an SBC church. I was intrigued to see some of the music selections used in Scott’s church. I wonder if Bob has seen some of this before he wrote his post.

This is very interesting. They don’t specifically state that they are reformed, but their worship journal is aligned very much to the reformed subgroup within the SBC (of which I am a member of one). The song selections don’t look any different from other reformed SBC churches, including Mark Devers and others. Which is very curious to me. Because this is what Scott has said about this before (http://religiousaffections.org/editors-picks/the-sovereign-gracegetty-m…)

But with just a quick glance at the first worship journal that I pulled up they sing “How deep the Father’s love for us”, in the Getty/SGM/Townsend circle http://www.christthekingfortworth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/13.03…

Very interesting

Very interesting news about Scot Aniol. I wonder how he can be a part of that church in good conscience, leading the ministry he does?

This is from the About Us / Our Ministries portion of his church’s website:

In our worship services this priority is expressed by a joyful, reverent tone and the use of a broad variety of forms and styles which converge to express the voice of the people in response to the voice of God heard in His Word, all to the glory of God! (emphasis added)

Obviously, Scot doesn’t have to answer to me or anyone else. Maybe I’m misreading the goals of RAM, but it doesn’t appear to jive with the statement above. Now, I wholeheartedly affirm the statement above and am happy Scott is serving in a place that does too. Just wondering out loud, here….

Oh, and I think Greg might be right about the personal nature of Bob Bixby’s post - there seems to be some personal interactions and specific interactions that may even lie behind the comment about the black grandmother…

Maybe Scott doesn’t sing. :)

Thank you, the other Greg L., for your thoughtful post. To me this is the crux of the matter…why is something that is not revealed in Scripture (musical form) elevated to a place of importance over things that are clearly revealed in Scripture (mode and meaning of baptism)?

I have never been in the position that some others have, Mr. Long- and if for some reason, I was, I would probably just do what I could to get a church started if there wasn’t one (I mean, right now, if I go somewhere, we’ll have at least nine of us most Sundays to start with… :D ). But for me, I suppose, that would true be in the face of either scenario I mentioned- especially if the Baptist option was more revivalist leaning and Calvinist-hostile.

I can understand, I suppose, in one sense. Consider, if someone was romantically interested in your daughter, and professed to care for her deeply, but insisted on displaying that care in inappropriate ways- I don’t know, something like slapping her backside playfully in public on a regular basis as a form of greeting/endearment (I am picturing a young unmarried couple of 18-20 year olds). That would be a hard thing to dismiss as simply being part of his culture and the way he expressed his care for her- or at least, it would for me. Something like that would make me want to discourage my daughter from associating with him- and not just because of the gesture, but the level of familiarity he would be taking with her I would find highly inappropriate given the nature of their relationship.

Apart from whether or not you agree with their premises, I think that’s where they come out at. This is their God, and people are not treating Him in the way they believe He should be. It’s a big deal, and one they can’t take lightly.

Bob, maybe there is a misreading of the goals of RAM (not just by you, but many of us). In the comment section of the latest post over there, Scott wrote

The other false assumption here is that worship rooted in the traditions of the historic church is not already diverse culturally. It indeed is. In our worship, for example, we use worship forms from Africa, Turkey, Spain, France, German, Great Britain, and America that span hundreds of years. I’d say that’s pretty diverse.

[Andrew K.]

[Alex Guggenheim]

[Andrew K.]

[Alex Guggenheim] And? Somehow you conclude I feel their use is bad? The context was part of an illustration of the claim by Linne that rap is brilliant to be dubious. I can go further if you wish and cite more weak and dischordant properties which heavily populate rap’s form which are quite removed from brilliant. But the fact is RAM has such essays with which it appears few wish to interact, hence Ieave you to visit them and take on their volume

But since you wish to move on…

You give one illustration of how Shai’s rap is bad: the use of a few slang words. Then when people ask how that demonstrates inferiority, you say that, by itself, it doesn’t, and that isn’t what you were saying. Well then what are we supposed to address or argue against? What does demonstrate the lack of “brilliance”? You’ll pardon us if this is all seeming a bit vague and subjective.

That was answered two posts ago.

That “contrived and conspicuous use of slang” bit? Excuse me, how is that not subjective? It may be “contrived and conspicuous” to you, but certainly not to the inner city child who grows up with it as his first language. You think he can just drop that and start speaking the Queen’s English?

“Beggarly and wanting”? All I’m hearing is, “I don’t like it because it sounds bad to me.”