"Are 'Christian' and 'rap' mutually exclusive? Hardly."
Fourth, even though Hip-Hop is global and multi-cultural, its roots are African-American and its core audience is African American.Interestingly, either Allen or Linne (not sure which) deny this. They say that hip-hop culture is not predominantly African American (about 38:30 or so).
If someone from a culture or race who can trace a certain cultural or racial attachment to a music style is offended because others do not see an elevated value in their music or see the value of such an element as sub-standard, the offense is the fault of the one being offended. This is because they are demonstrating no capacity for objections and in fact, their very objection to the values of others and the expression of such values makes them the person committing an offense by attempting to deny the legitimate existence of the expression of other values and scales through their claim of being offended.
Secondly, I have yet to see anyone point to the “racial” cause for not esteeming Rap’s musical value to a degree sufficient to warrant its use in worship. This again points to the person being offended as at fault for reading into what is being said by others who simply do not share their point of view. This reminds me of the Democrats who cry racist every time something is objected to by Republicans.
Regardless of its history, the fact is Rap is no longer isolated in its cultural/racial origins and the largest consumers of Rap music are white (70% of rap and hip-hop music is purchased by white consumers. [The Source, October 99] ) so these those objecting to it, if they are Anglo-Saxon, they, themselves, should be given the same consideration, that it isn’t racial and it isn’t (never minding the group of people whose racial make-up is African in part or whole that do not accept Rap a source for worship music, we just can’t imagine their motives).
But I will say this again:
And this is a very difficult subject for many and it is understandable. The world is so pressurized today that anyone making a value judgment on any other group or an element of a group (as if this cannot be done objectively) is excoriated.
Secondly, I have yet to see anyone point to the “racial” cause for not esteeming Rap’s musical value to a degree sufficient to warrant its use in worship. This again points to the person being offended as at fault for reading into what is being said by others who simply do not share their point of view. This reminds me of the Democrats who cry racist every time something is objected to by Republicans.
Regardless of its history, the fact is Rap is no longer isolated in its cultural/racial origins and the largest consumers of Rap music are white (70% of rap and hip-hop music is purchased by white consumers. [The Source, October 99] ) so these those objecting to it, if they are Anglo-Saxon, they, themselves, should be given the same consideration, that it isn’t racial and it isn’t (never minding the group of people whose racial make-up is African in part or whole that do not accept Rap a source for worship music, we just can’t imagine their motives).
But I will say this again:
I suspect that one of the issues with music is that many people take the erring position that all assigned values are purely subjective therefore there can be no true measure of poor or excellent, crude or sophisticated and unacceptable or acceptable . And the result is that there is an attempt to hoist or project personal tastes (often undeveloped) onto or into the science of music hence contentions are made with its objective findings. Of course this is ridiculous but the ridiculous never gets in the way of a foolish mind.And when it comes to cultures and assigning values for cultural development or contributions it is politically incorrect (something it appears that Evangelicals and Fundies alike are swallowing en masse these days) for any Anglo-Saxon to assess the element of any other culture (or the culture itself) and place that particular element or culture lower than itself on a scale. There is some kind of odd protest that is aroused and unfortunately too many people have been taught and accept the practice of false guilt that leads to false charges of impure motives toward those who come to such conclusions and the demand that all other cultures and their elements be given a default equal value status or better than anything Anglo-Saxon or else…you’re insensitive in the least and a possibly a bigot or something like that (possibly like Paul when he affirmed a certain negative value to the Cretians in Titus 1:12b: “the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies”).
Often, I also suspect that it might indeed be that certain types of music manifest what is already thematic of the overall inferiority of some cultures and it is simply unbearable for them to once again acknowledge this. This does not mean one should conclude there is absolutely no utilitarian value to Rap, that is not what is being said, rather its true position in regard to all order is being identified.
And this is a very difficult subject for many and it is understandable. The world is so pressurized today that anyone making a value judgment on any other group or an element of a group (as if this cannot be done objectively) is excoriated.
Larry,
I was giving one reason not the entire spectrum about why African-Americans don’t embrace fundamentalism and actually was going to edit my comment, but you beat me to it…..
“What about those who don’t really take time to understand it and accept it as good? Is that also bad?” I would agree with you that discernment is in order. The Biblical framework that I observe culture is creation, fall, redemption, and consummation. I teach my inner-city students to do the same when it comes to hip-hop. So the depravity of man is very much on our radar when it comes to engaging and confronting the evils of hip-hop culture. However, we Christians need to be careful that we don’t exclude creation (God creating everything good, and humankind through Adam was given the task of the cultural mandate) as God’s image bearers when it comes to music and the development of this genre. Yes the fall has distorted everything, all culture, all ways of life. Just like the fall distorted the development of every genre of music and the cultural context of those genres that have developed over the ages.
“Is that life from which this music springs and which this music addresses consistent with the gospel?” My answer is when you look through the lens of creation, fall, redemption, and the final consummation…..then yes….
The push back question I would have is that those who dismiss the importance of a robust doctrine of creation and the cultural mandate when it comes to culture and begin with the depravity of man as the starting point, are they the ones that have really distorted the gospel? Many contemporary Reformed thinkers such as Brian Walsh in “A Transformed Vision: Shaping a Christian Worldview,” Al Wolters in “Creation Regained: Biblical Basics for a Reformational Worldview” Michael Wittmer in “Heaven is a Place on Earth: Why Everything you do matters to God,” and even parts of D.A. Carson’s “Christ and Culture Revisited” have argued eloquently that a minimizing of the doctrine of Creation when it comes to confronting and engaging culture ultimately distorts the gospel and even leads to Platonic thinking. (By the way Walsh, Wolters, Wittmer, and Carson also emphasize a robust view of the fall) I am not making accusations because I haven’t read enough of Scott Aniol or even know enough of your Biblical worldview.
I was giving one reason not the entire spectrum about why African-Americans don’t embrace fundamentalism and actually was going to edit my comment, but you beat me to it…..
“What about those who don’t really take time to understand it and accept it as good? Is that also bad?” I would agree with you that discernment is in order. The Biblical framework that I observe culture is creation, fall, redemption, and consummation. I teach my inner-city students to do the same when it comes to hip-hop. So the depravity of man is very much on our radar when it comes to engaging and confronting the evils of hip-hop culture. However, we Christians need to be careful that we don’t exclude creation (God creating everything good, and humankind through Adam was given the task of the cultural mandate) as God’s image bearers when it comes to music and the development of this genre. Yes the fall has distorted everything, all culture, all ways of life. Just like the fall distorted the development of every genre of music and the cultural context of those genres that have developed over the ages.
“Is that life from which this music springs and which this music addresses consistent with the gospel?” My answer is when you look through the lens of creation, fall, redemption, and the final consummation…..then yes….
The push back question I would have is that those who dismiss the importance of a robust doctrine of creation and the cultural mandate when it comes to culture and begin with the depravity of man as the starting point, are they the ones that have really distorted the gospel? Many contemporary Reformed thinkers such as Brian Walsh in “A Transformed Vision: Shaping a Christian Worldview,” Al Wolters in “Creation Regained: Biblical Basics for a Reformational Worldview” Michael Wittmer in “Heaven is a Place on Earth: Why Everything you do matters to God,” and even parts of D.A. Carson’s “Christ and Culture Revisited” have argued eloquently that a minimizing of the doctrine of Creation when it comes to confronting and engaging culture ultimately distorts the gospel and even leads to Platonic thinking. (By the way Walsh, Wolters, Wittmer, and Carson also emphasize a robust view of the fall) I am not making accusations because I haven’t read enough of Scott Aniol or even know enough of your Biblical worldview.
Alex and Larry,
I mention that although Hip-Hop is global and multi-cultural at its core are African-Americans under the age of 40. My basis for saying this is Bakari Kitwana, a scholar who has done the most research when it comes to hip-hop culture and music and he goes deeper than the surface observations. His book “Why White Kids Love Hip Hop” dispels alot of myths and stereotypes that even research such as 70% of whites listen to hip-hop doesn’t really give a true picture of reality.
Alex, I am struggling how to approach what you have said. Have you even listened to Shai Linne or Cross Movement to hear if there is legitimate value that Mark Dever or myself put on Christian Hip-Hop that I just talked about?
I find it interesting that you would rather blame the Christian(s) that have been hurt by comments and accusations and justify your own view. You might be strengthening my argument that maybe some of us fundamentalist are ethnocentric.
I am curious to know what your “science of music” standards which enables you to judge “undeveloped” types of music? What objective standard are you referring to?
By the way, I have ministered in the ‘hood for 20 years to mostly African-Americans. I have spent two decades of my life understanding the culture of African-Americans and I have never ever detected any inferiority complex when it comes to hip-hop or any other genre such as urban gospel, R&B, and etc….. in comparison to other genres of music.
I mention that although Hip-Hop is global and multi-cultural at its core are African-Americans under the age of 40. My basis for saying this is Bakari Kitwana, a scholar who has done the most research when it comes to hip-hop culture and music and he goes deeper than the surface observations. His book “Why White Kids Love Hip Hop” dispels alot of myths and stereotypes that even research such as 70% of whites listen to hip-hop doesn’t really give a true picture of reality.
Alex, I am struggling how to approach what you have said. Have you even listened to Shai Linne or Cross Movement to hear if there is legitimate value that Mark Dever or myself put on Christian Hip-Hop that I just talked about?
I find it interesting that you would rather blame the Christian(s) that have been hurt by comments and accusations and justify your own view. You might be strengthening my argument that maybe some of us fundamentalist are ethnocentric.
I am curious to know what your “science of music” standards which enables you to judge “undeveloped” types of music? What objective standard are you referring to?
By the way, I have ministered in the ‘hood for 20 years to mostly African-Americans. I have spent two decades of my life understanding the culture of African-Americans and I have never ever detected any inferiority complex when it comes to hip-hop or any other genre such as urban gospel, R&B, and etc….. in comparison to other genres of music.
[Joel Shaffer] Alex, I am struggling how to approach what you have said. Have you even listened to Shai Linne or Cross Movement to hear if there is legitimate value that Mark Dever or myself put on Christian Hip-Hop that I just talked about?One of my earlier posts reflects that I acknowledge that their may be some value to Rap:
[Alex Guggenheim] This does not mean one should conclude there is absolutely no utilitarian value to Rap, that is not what is being said, rather its true position in regard to all order is being identified.
[Joel Shaffer] I find it interesting that you would rather blame the Christian(s) that have been hurt by comments and accusations and justify your own view. You might be strengthening my argument that maybe some of us fundamentalist are ethnocentric.Joel, if someone is “hurt” without just cause then indeed that person is to blame. The cause of the hurt being brought up, is the claim of some “cultural/racial” insensitivity by those objecting to Rap for worship as if that is a legitimate reason for being offended. Sorry Joel, it isn’t, hence those being offended are at fault for demanding others not express objections or else they will be offended.
As well, the point is not made to justify an alternative position since it isn’t offered as a justification for the alternative, rather as a rebuttal to the claim of being “offended” by those who seem to take the position that the mere existence of objecting parties and the expression of such objections is a valid reason for claiming offense, it isn’t.
[Joel Shaffer] I am curious to know what your “science of music” standards which enables you to judge “undeveloped” types of music? What objective standard are you referring to?Your question seems to ignore the existence of the science of music and music theory itself. I refer to the very “orthopraxical” science of music that identifies notes, octaves, scales, tones, pitch, composition and so on. Are you asserting no such science exists?
[Joel Shaffer] By the way, I have ministered in the ‘hood for 20 years to mostly African-Americans. I have spent two decades of my life understanding the culture of African-Americans and I have never ever detected any inferiority complex when it comes to hip-hop or any other genre such as urban gospel, R&B, and etc….. in comparison to other genres of music.Well, I have seen many postures of inferiority complexes but that really doesn’t matter in the end since such experiences are subjective. But the point of “African-American” does. Remember, the objection to Rap isn’t based on race, it is based on musical value. Your statement here returns the argument to one of race which is not the context, it is about an assigned value of the musical format.
Alex,
I think we are having a communication problem. You are talking about rap music itself and I am talking about Hip-Hop culture. Although Rap music is an aspect of Hip-Hop culture, it is not hip-hop. This is not just my opinion. Just about every contemporary sociologist that written on the subject agrees with this assessment. My students and those who are African-American under the age of 40 embraces Hip-Hop culture as a way of life. It is the lens which they operate and do things. So if someone says that rap music is substandard and the person is offended by it because of racial overtones you are absolutely right to call that out as wrong. However, Hip-hop culture is so much more than music and takes so much more to understand so if a person makes a disparaging comment about hip-hop culture without taking the time to discern the good, bad, and the ugly, then there is a problem. That is why I took the time to answer Larry’s question dealing with culture within the Biblical framework of creation, fall, redemption, and the final consummation. Sorry on my part that I assumed you were talking about something else.
And I got a little distracted and asked you the question about the science of music. I just didn’t want to interpret you wrong. Of course all these elements that you mention are part of music. And of course a genre such as classical is more complex and has more depth than rap. Again my focus at the beginning was on hip-hop culture, rather than rap music.
I think we are having a communication problem. You are talking about rap music itself and I am talking about Hip-Hop culture. Although Rap music is an aspect of Hip-Hop culture, it is not hip-hop. This is not just my opinion. Just about every contemporary sociologist that written on the subject agrees with this assessment. My students and those who are African-American under the age of 40 embraces Hip-Hop culture as a way of life. It is the lens which they operate and do things. So if someone says that rap music is substandard and the person is offended by it because of racial overtones you are absolutely right to call that out as wrong. However, Hip-hop culture is so much more than music and takes so much more to understand so if a person makes a disparaging comment about hip-hop culture without taking the time to discern the good, bad, and the ugly, then there is a problem. That is why I took the time to answer Larry’s question dealing with culture within the Biblical framework of creation, fall, redemption, and the final consummation. Sorry on my part that I assumed you were talking about something else.
And I got a little distracted and asked you the question about the science of music. I just didn’t want to interpret you wrong. Of course all these elements that you mention are part of music. And of course a genre such as classical is more complex and has more depth than rap. Again my focus at the beginning was on hip-hop culture, rather than rap music.
You know, I think Joel may be on to something here, even if it hurts to read.
I’m going to take a guess that at least 90% of the SI readers are white. And while many of us embrace the robust rise of African American fundamentalists, we also recognize that we are only now starting to have mutually-beneficial conversations with them. Joel’s idea—that hip hop culture is different from white culture (and that African American culture is different than white culture) seems simple enough to affirm.
But then our personal baggage kicks in. One could immediately point out that the rap idiom carries its own share of worldly, sin-sick baggage (and that some African American fundamentalist leaders would never use it in ministry). But what about our own white baggage? At the same time white fundamentalists were locking our African American brothers out of our colleges and seminaries (and later complaining that they developed the wrong theology!), we were also hurling “savage jungle music” accusations at anyone who strayed from the canon of European art music. Personally, I look back at our white response to jazz and rock with more than a little embarrassment. We could have used these moments to teach biblical discernment, but too often we resorted to racial insults.
I think most of the readers here have embraced the idea that one culture can be morally superior to another. But on the subject of parsing meaning (and on the broader subject of biblical discernment) we haven’t made much progress. The bottom line is that we (whites) don’t understand much about African or African American culture (though many of us have an encyclopedic knowledge of European art music). So we tend to criticize something we do not know.
If I understand him correctly, that’s Joel’s main point. [I’m not sold on the idea of quickly borrowing rap for use in the church, but I don’t want to overlook the larger issues at hand.]
I’m going to take a guess that at least 90% of the SI readers are white. And while many of us embrace the robust rise of African American fundamentalists, we also recognize that we are only now starting to have mutually-beneficial conversations with them. Joel’s idea—that hip hop culture is different from white culture (and that African American culture is different than white culture) seems simple enough to affirm.
But then our personal baggage kicks in. One could immediately point out that the rap idiom carries its own share of worldly, sin-sick baggage (and that some African American fundamentalist leaders would never use it in ministry). But what about our own white baggage? At the same time white fundamentalists were locking our African American brothers out of our colleges and seminaries (and later complaining that they developed the wrong theology!), we were also hurling “savage jungle music” accusations at anyone who strayed from the canon of European art music. Personally, I look back at our white response to jazz and rock with more than a little embarrassment. We could have used these moments to teach biblical discernment, but too often we resorted to racial insults.
I think most of the readers here have embraced the idea that one culture can be morally superior to another. But on the subject of parsing meaning (and on the broader subject of biblical discernment) we haven’t made much progress. The bottom line is that we (whites) don’t understand much about African or African American culture (though many of us have an encyclopedic knowledge of European art music). So we tend to criticize something we do not know.
If I understand him correctly, that’s Joel’s main point. [I’m not sold on the idea of quickly borrowing rap for use in the church, but I don’t want to overlook the larger issues at hand.]
Any person with a specific cultural background can make claims that there are ‘racist’ undercurrents in comments or criticisms of that culture. I was born and raised in WV, and I hear jokes all the time about ignorant, toothless, barefoot hilljacks. Don’t make no never mind to me, and if someone doesn’t like bluegrass or southern gospel or smokin’ a corn cob pipe, I don’t get my knickers in a bunch about it.
I agree that some of our understandings of different cultures and musical styles are quite shallow and our tastes are based on our own experiences… which cuts both ways, as has been pointed out. My father adored negro spirituals and Spanish guitar, so I enjoy those styles tremendously, and feel they influenced me quite a bit. Since I’m of French/Irish/Scottish descent, what does that mean?
My African-American friends would 1) hate the term “African-American” and spit in your eye for using it 2) deny vehemently that rap or hip-hop reflects their heritage in any way. I think it’s odd to claim that because those who originated a certain style of music were of a certain ethnicity, that their music will automatically resonate with others of their culture. IOW, do “All black folks love jazz?” Isn’t that the kind of stereotype we’ve been so desperately trying to get away from?
I still believe the larger question is the proper use of music, period. I haven’t listened to the interview again, but I do remember being struck by their comments as to how they used rap music to make preaching more interesting to those they ministered to. Is this appropriate, not just for rap, but for any style of music? If so, how does this work? Does singing “At Calvary” make the message of salvation more interesting or palatable to white Europeans? If a lost Caucasian walks past a church with “And Can It Be” wafting out the windows, are they going to feel compelled to check it out?
I’m just not getting it. Dumb hillbilly, I reckon. Gonna’ go make some sassafras tea.
I agree that some of our understandings of different cultures and musical styles are quite shallow and our tastes are based on our own experiences… which cuts both ways, as has been pointed out. My father adored negro spirituals and Spanish guitar, so I enjoy those styles tremendously, and feel they influenced me quite a bit. Since I’m of French/Irish/Scottish descent, what does that mean?
My African-American friends would 1) hate the term “African-American” and spit in your eye for using it 2) deny vehemently that rap or hip-hop reflects their heritage in any way. I think it’s odd to claim that because those who originated a certain style of music were of a certain ethnicity, that their music will automatically resonate with others of their culture. IOW, do “All black folks love jazz?” Isn’t that the kind of stereotype we’ve been so desperately trying to get away from?
I still believe the larger question is the proper use of music, period. I haven’t listened to the interview again, but I do remember being struck by their comments as to how they used rap music to make preaching more interesting to those they ministered to. Is this appropriate, not just for rap, but for any style of music? If so, how does this work? Does singing “At Calvary” make the message of salvation more interesting or palatable to white Europeans? If a lost Caucasian walks past a church with “And Can It Be” wafting out the windows, are they going to feel compelled to check it out?
I’m just not getting it. Dumb hillbilly, I reckon. Gonna’ go make some sassafras tea.
Susan,
I don’t think you understood Shai Linne correctly. He doesn’t use hip-hop to make preaching more interesting, it is used to support it. For example, I have used hip-hop to go along side of my Bible studies with my students to help teach the sovereignty of God in the midst of suffering, substitutionary atonement, and even presuppositional apologetics, and I have never compromised the ministry of preaching and teaching Christ in any way. We need to be careful not to assume that pragmatism is at work in this situation.
No doubt your experiences with African-Americans and hip-hop are different than mine. I have no qualms with that. The people I serve are older teens and young adults that come from impoverished backgrounds, mostly single-parent families, and have lived their entire lives exposed to crime and violence. They see life through the worldview of hip-hop in a way that their parents and grandparents don’t. The generational difference between the hip-hop generation and their parents and grandparents among African-Americans has been compared by some sociologists to the differences among hippies and their parents in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s. Likewise, hip-hop has replaced the church as the center of life among African-Americans. Therefore, there are some African-American Christians that deplore hip-hop (usually those who are older than 40…….)
I am not trying to stereotype my African-American brothers and sisters. I am just speaking from 20 years of ministry experience living in the ‘hood and several books and articles that I’ve read to try to go deep and understand the worldview of hip-hop culture as apposed to the temptation of only looking at the beliefs and behaviors within the culture and then making erroneous assumptions (I am not accusing you of this, by the way).
I don’t think you understood Shai Linne correctly. He doesn’t use hip-hop to make preaching more interesting, it is used to support it. For example, I have used hip-hop to go along side of my Bible studies with my students to help teach the sovereignty of God in the midst of suffering, substitutionary atonement, and even presuppositional apologetics, and I have never compromised the ministry of preaching and teaching Christ in any way. We need to be careful not to assume that pragmatism is at work in this situation.
No doubt your experiences with African-Americans and hip-hop are different than mine. I have no qualms with that. The people I serve are older teens and young adults that come from impoverished backgrounds, mostly single-parent families, and have lived their entire lives exposed to crime and violence. They see life through the worldview of hip-hop in a way that their parents and grandparents don’t. The generational difference between the hip-hop generation and their parents and grandparents among African-Americans has been compared by some sociologists to the differences among hippies and their parents in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s. Likewise, hip-hop has replaced the church as the center of life among African-Americans. Therefore, there are some African-American Christians that deplore hip-hop (usually those who are older than 40…….)
I am not trying to stereotype my African-American brothers and sisters. I am just speaking from 20 years of ministry experience living in the ‘hood and several books and articles that I’ve read to try to go deep and understand the worldview of hip-hop culture as apposed to the temptation of only looking at the beliefs and behaviors within the culture and then making erroneous assumptions (I am not accusing you of this, by the way).
[Joel Shaffer]… I have used hip-hop to go along side of my Bible studies with my students to help teach the sovereignty of God in the midst of suffering, substitutionary atonement, and even presuppositional apologetics, and I have never compromised the ministry of preaching and teaching Christ in any way. We need to be careful not to assume that pragmatism is at work in this situation.
In what unique way does hip-hop or rap more effectively communicate the sovereignty of God? Or…what corresponding cultural practices or music styles would do the same for Hispanics, Orientals, Southerners, Yanks… IOW, if there is a new tool in the spiritual toolbox, do the rest of us get to use it? :p
No doubt your experiences with African-Americans and hip-hop are different than mine. I have no qualms with that. The people I serve are older teens and young adults that come from impoverished backgrounds, mostly single-parent families, and have lived their entire lives exposed to crime and violence. They see life through the worldview of hip-hop in a way that their parents and grandparents don’t. The generational difference between the hip-hop generation and their parents and grandparents among African-Americans has been compared by some sociologists to the differences among hippies and their parents in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s. Likewise, hip-hop has replaced the church as the center of life among African-Americans. Therefore, there are some African-American Christians that deplore hip-hop (usually those who are older than 40…….)
I went to a private Christian school with kids from many walks of life, and culture or race was just never an issue, so you are right that my experiences as a young person were not with kids from impoverished and dysfunctional families. The black kids I knew grew up in the ‘burbs, not the ‘hood. I don’t even think there was a ‘hood in Huntington in the 80’s.
Do perhaps these older African American Christians who deplore hip-hop have some insight to share about the wisdom of using hip-hop culture- a culture that you’ve said is the center of life for some of these young people- as a draw into the church? If the older generation rejects some new-fangled stuff, shouldn’t we ask them “Why?” Or do we just call them fuddy-duddies and kick them to the curb?
I am not trying to stereotype my African-American brothers and sisters. I am just speaking from 20 years of ministry experience living in the ‘hood and several books and articles that I’ve read to try to go deep and understand the worldview of hip-hop culture as apposed to the temptation of only looking at the beliefs and behaviors within the culture and then making erroneous assumptions (I am not accusing you of this, by the way).
I don’t think you are trying to stereotype African Americans, but when the apparent assumption is that the only way to reach into their hearts and minds is through their culture, and that this need is unique to African Americans, I thinketh therefore that I espy a slippery slope.
Let me ask it this way- how effective is the Gospel message with young African Americans without being wrapped in hip-hop culture/music?
Discussion