My error and misinterpration

I have not studied this issue in depth. I just now realized this was my response to your earlier post on Landmark-ism! I do study things, honest, just nothing you’ve brought up … !

The holiness expected of God’s people, in any dispensation, is the defining point on this issue for me. There is absolutely nothing positive in Scripture about alcohol, except perhaps Paul’s advice to Timothy (1 Tim 5:23). Everything about it is negative. How can a people whose goal is to imitate God (Lev 19:2; Eph 5:1; 1 Pet 1:16) reconcile the consumption of alcohol?

There are volumes written about how the NT use of “wine” actually refers to grape juice. I admittedly haven’t looked at any of these arguments yet, but do accept them.

I’ll read your article a bit later tonight.

You concluded with a very good summary statement:

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid drinking a beverage, the Bible does say that believers are royal priests (1 Peter 2:5,9), and have the Holy Spirit living inside of them (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) and therefore drinking would be foolish and not wise.

It is far better to focus on the holiness of God and the behavior expected of His people than parse whether “wine” really meant “grape juice with no alcohol.” It may indeed mean this, but we’d be missing the larger picture if that is all we focused on. The whole tenor of Scripture weighs heavily against drinking alcohol, for reasons you enumerated very well.

I did not get the impression you are a “teetotalist.” You wrote a reasoned article backed with Scripture. I am a “teetotalist.” My stand would be based on the holiness of God and the behavior standards expected of His people. I recognize the liberty of Christians to respectfully disagree and consume alcohol, but I believe they are seriously in error and will emphatically say as much. Unrepentant alcohol consumption would be a matter of church discipline at my church.

Good article, Brother.

[TylerR]

You concluded with a very good summary statement:

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid drinking a beverage, the Bible does say that believers are royal priests (1 Peter 2:5,9), and have the Holy Spirit living inside of them (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) and therefore drinking would be foolish and not wise.

It is far better to focus on the holiness of God and the behavior expected of His people than parse whether “wine” really meant “grape juice with no alcohol.” It may indeed mean this, but we’d be missing the larger picture if that is all we focused on. The whole tenor of Scripture weighs heavily against drinking alcohol, for reasons you enumerated very well.

I did not get the impression you are a “teetotalist.” You wrote a reasoned article backed with Scripture. I am a “teetotalist.” My stand would be based on the holiness of God and the behavior standards expected of His people. I recognize the liberty of Christians to respectfully disagree and consume alcohol, but I believe they are seriously in error and will emphatically say as much. Unrepentant alcohol consumption would be a matter of church discipline at my church.

Good article, Brother.

On what biblical basis would you discipline someone who disagreed with your position of total abstinence? How would you make this argument first to the person asking him to repent then to the church asking them to convict?

My Biblical basis for abstinence is the holiness of God and the behavior expected of His children, in any dispensation (Lev 19:2; Eph 5:1; 1 Pet 1:16), and others.

If we are dealing with an unsaved individual, my focus will not be on alcohol. It will be on salvation first, sanctification will obviously be dealt with afterwards.

My contention is that the consumption of alcohol is not proper Christian behavior and is a poor testimony for Christ for the primary reasons cited above. I would also apply the principle of the body of the NT Christian being likened to a temple (1 Cor 3:16-17).

Church discipline would follow Mt 18:15-17, with the goal being reconciliation not malicious condemnation. I am aware that the concept of “church discipline” has very negative overtones for some people. It is not negative or malicious. It is an honest, patient, longsuffering attempt to help a brother or sister in Christ in fellowship who is struggling with sin.

To shift gears for a moment …

I believe this issue is more contentious than most because of the social acceptability of drinking. You could take the very same arguments for social drinking among Christians and substitute “cocaine” or “meth” and have the very same argument.

Surely nobody here would advocate responsible Christian use of meth or cocaine!?

Surely nobody here would hesitate to counsel and lovingly admonish a brother or sister in Christ indulging in recreational cocaine use? Why is alcohol different, particularly if the holiness of God and the body as a temple are the grounds of our standards of behavior in this dispensation?

I gather from comments you made earlier that your argument hinges on making the wine at Cana grape juice. That would be an aberration from a more conservative hermeneutic, since the plain reading of the passage indicates a fermented drink. This is the same oinos we are told not to be drunk with in Ephesians 5:18 and the same oinos aged women are warned not to give themselves over to in Titus 2:3. My point is not to convince you to drink, but to encourage you to reconsider alcohol as a disciplinary action in the church. I also abstain and encourage others to do the same as the path of wisdom. However, that is not the same as declaring that God has identified this innately as sin for believers, a requirement of the disciplinary process in the assembly.

I have heard the grape juice argument. I haven’t looked into it. I guess it sounds possible, but who knows? It wouldn’t be part of any argument I make.

However, that is not the same as declaring that God has identified this innately as sin for believers, a requirement of the disciplinary process in the assembly.

Has God identified cocaine or meth innately as sin? Would you discipline a brother or sister who uses either of these substances recreationally? If you would exercise disciple in these instances, why is the alcohol issue different?

I must return to the holiness God expects of His people, and the body of the NT Christian as a temple.

If the wine in Cana was alcoholic, how do you discipline a church member for drinking something Jesus made and gave to others to consume? You cannot stretch an application (temple argument, cocaine analogy) to override a clear biblical action (Jesus serving wine).

Cocaine and Meth are very different, first of all, because they are illegal. A person that does meth and cocaine recreationally is breaking the law. Beer and Wine is not illegal. Second, as one who has ministered to crack cocaine addicts over the past 20 years out of the many hundreds of people that I know that has done crack cocaine, I’ve never met someone that smokes or smoked crack in moderation. It is extremely addictive to everyone. In contrast, I know hundreds of people that drink alcohol in moderation where it has not led to addiction. Drinking a glass of wine or having a beer does not automatically lead to drunkenness. Just as there are many in our world that are addicted to alcohol, there are many within our world that can drink in moderation and not get drunk.

Chip:

If the wine in Cana was alcoholic, how do you discipline a church member for drinking something Jesus made and gave to others to consume?

Yes, the question is “if.” The grape juice issue does deserves further study from me. I have always meant to get to it.

Off the cuff I would say that there is a real question about how “alcoholic” this beverage is. Sources I have seen, elsewhere and in Bro. Wolf’s article, suggest it was nothing more than fermented grape juice heavily diluted with water. The article also raises the practical necessity of this custom, due to the poor condition of the drinking water. I have no resources with me now, so that is as far as I can go. These are my initial thoughts.

On the other hand, 1 Jn 2:10 suggests wine drinking led to intoxication. Left unsaid in this particular passage is what Christ thought of intoxication, but is safe to say He would not have approved!

I would also appeal to the principle of liberty acting as a stumbling-block to weaker brethren (1 Cor 8:9).

Food for thought for me. I’ll look in some commentaries and lexicons when I get home.