California Tax Bill Seeks to Punish Scouts for Gay Ban

Tyler I appreciate your fervency, but the truth is and I think you will agree. this place is a place for a thinking mind, not for ranting opinions. I feel I was pretty obvious that I enjoy the privilege of tax exemption, but I was also clear that I questioned our right to it. Many Christians (this thread makes it clear) talk about this country not just in terms of Christian influence in its creation, but also in Christian sovereignty. I think when one sees their privileges as rights, they lose perspective on what our rights truly are, and what fortune we have had for being Christians in America. They instead treat their privileges as entitlements (sound familiar). The Bible is clear that as part of God’s will for Christians is suffering and persecution, which for the majority of this country’s history we have been spared from. God truly has blessed this country. But as the time for Christian marginalization in this country nears, we must understand what our rights are and what our privileges are. That was my intention in my posts, to challenge the faulty notion of Christian superiority as far as governing policies are concerned.

My exact opinion which I said before anyway is really irrelevant to an intellectual discussion. The government should do a lot things differently. The government should stay out of the business of church. In my opinion less government is ideal. But! should a Bible believing Christian fulfill his 2nd amendment “right” (some would say responsibility) given him by the government when the government doesn’t do what in our opinions should be doing? Things are always more complicated than what “I” want. Yes I want the church to be tax exempt. I also wouldn’t mind to not have to pay taxes myself. In fact if the government could give me a million dollars I’d really appreciate it. Yet, that’s probably not going to happen.

It is my hope that when Christian marginalization happens that the majority of us will respond in a way fitting of Christ. Yet when we see the Christian response to issues like gun control more then likely further marginalization is going to be responded to with fits of tantrums from the Christian community. We as Christians are not entitled to anything in this country, every privilege we’ve been given in this country is by the providential grace and mercy of God. We could live in China, or Russia, or the Middle East, and things would be so much different. Enjoy your privileges and use them as God would have you, or they may end up getting taken away.

Brother:

I am not enraged, merely exasperated. Please believe me when I tell you that if I was actually enraged, and so inclined, I would simply call your church and speak to you over the phone.

My concern is that I detect a certain aloof, detached calculation in your musings. I understand your greater point, but I get the impression you do not even want to advocate for the Christian perspective in the public square. This is very troubling to me.

I have also lived and traveled overseas for many years. I am not aware if you have served in the military or not. I am quite aware, from first-hand experience, of the fleeting nature of human life and our blessings as American citizens. I fully understand the need to, as you put it:

Enjoy your privileges and use them as God would have you, or they may end up getting taken away.

I have interpreted your position as essentially passive. “They can keep tax exempt if they want, but, you know, it’s not really our right, so government is free to do what it wants …” This whole issue seems to be met with a shrug of the philosophical shoulders from you.

I may be terribly incorrect. Forgive me if this is so.

My view is definitely not passive, that being said I do feel that one should be careful how they “advocate for the Christian perspective in the public square.” As the Christian perspective is only relevant attached to the Gospel which is usually not present in the “public square.” I would say one should vote according to their convictions. I personally will vote for individuals that best represent what I feel will bring the most freedoms and liberties to Christians and that provides an economic atmosphere for churches to thrive. In this particular area, I would probably not base my vote on it. There are much bigger hills for me to die on. In my mind although we must to an extent be involved and active in politics and issues like these, The Gospel and to a much lesser extent education are far more effective tools for changing culture then political endeavors. In my mind it is much more important to discuss what would/should we do if something like this issue comes to pass.

Paynen:

I appreciate this point:

The Gospel and to a much lesser extent education are far more effective tools for changing culture then political endeavors.

I honestly did not get this out of your previous posts. Too many people show little discernment with Christain involvement in politics. The incessant “President Obama = evil communist Satanist” Facebook pictures are really annoying and disgraceful.

Paynen:

The government is our authority corrupt or not, Unless biblical commands over ride it the government has the right to do whatever it wants.

No. The government does not have right to do whatever it wants. The government is limited by the constitution and can do only what the constitution allows. We know, of course, that is not true in practice, but that doesn’t mean that it is a right.

What is the constitution? The constitution is a part of the government. The government limited themselves with the constitution. It was a “covenant” between the colonies. Should they abide by that? yes. If they break the covenant do we have to as individuals abide by their authority, technically no. BUT! things are more complex if we are Christians. Scripture clearly tells us to submit to the authority of the government unless the government is trying to force us to disobey God. There is no clause that says, “we must submit to the authority of the government unless the government is no longer abiding by the United States constitution.” That is just silly. We should with in the ability that we are legally given attempt to make biblical changes within government. If the government decided to throw out the constitution tomorrow, we would not have a biblical merit to rebel.

What Biblical warrant was there for the Revolutionary War in the first place? Shouldn’t the colonists have been good Christians and accepted what Britain forced upon them? Shouldn’t they have prayed for King George and Lord North’s government (Rom 13)?

This is why I have occasionally accused your position of being similiar to fatalism, Paynen.

That is a good question, was the Revolutionary war a just war? Ethically as Christians is it okay to Rebel to fight against and attack others, killing them in order to have “taxation = representation” I’m not saying we should call up GB and say hey we were wrong we submit to your authority, but honestly think critically about this, was it a just war according to any system of Christian ethics?

My view is definitely not fatalism. Because there is a point when you stand up and take military action. My issue is this. I am a Christian on my way to an eternity in heaven, this is not my home. If I pick up a gun and shoot someone for any reason and that person is unsaved. I have just taken a life and a soul is on its way to hades. It would take a pretty big legitimate reason for me to pull that trigger. I am proud to be an American and I love my country… but I couldn’t do it. I’m not sure I would go as far as the missionaries such as John Williams who allowed themselves to be eaten by cannibals because they knew were they were going and they didn’t want to take the lives of those who would go to hell if they had. But at what point is war okay is killing okay?