John Vaughn (FBFI President/CEO): "one thing is clear: this video ends the fiction that 'Northland has not changed.'”

Dr. Doran argues that associational issues are legitimate when there is a clear or direct relationship which does not require special research, but is generally known (i.e., playboy bunny logo on a shirt). Today there is no clear or direct relationship between wedding rings or similarly dressed groomsmen with spiritism as there was apparently 400 years ago, and secondly that knowledge today would require an unusual level of inside information virtually unknown to 99:9 percent of Christians or non-Christians. Is rap/hiphop generally perceived in our culture as sexual, violent, misogynist, and expressive of the values in urban culture?

[Joel Shaffer]

You just proved my point! The only ones that still make that connection of rock music and rebellion and free love in our culture are the fundamentalists…..

Because of how my wife and I raised our children (2 of which are teenagers) and the music I played while in our Christian rock band and the music we use for worship in our church, they associate CCM with beauty and holiness. I also expose them to classical music and hymns as well (I am a classically trained musician that graduated with a music degree). What seems so obvious that what I’m describing is somehow worldly, is so obvious to me that you are denouncing an aspect of God’s creation that he declared good, even in such a fallen world (I Tim 4:1-5).

I guess I can be a self-fulfilling prophecy of your point in that I’m a fundamentalist and I make the connection. :) Understand, however, that I’m pointing to a historical precedent and not necessarily just recycling the arguments of those who experienced this at the time. I didn’t live through that era, I only look back on it.

I agree that with regards to associations, it is far different than it was at the time it occurred. There is no question about that. While at the time the rock and roll style was a very new, striking sound in music (although it had a long line of predecessors), over several decades it evolved and was assimilated by the culture. Because nearly everyone listens to it in some form, and not just rebellious teenagers or hippies, there is not the direct association in the current generation(s) to “free love”, etc.

Where we differ is that you view such styles as only associative, while I am arguing there is something innate in them. From my view, it is natural that these strong associations no longer exist, because as Greg pointed out, our culture has moved so far into immorality and debauchery that viewing things from the bottom of the pit doesn’t make the things halfway up look so dirty. In the last 2 decades (or even 1), our culture has undergone a dramatic shift in how homosexuality is perceived. It doesn’t change what is innate about it.

I appreciate you sharing I Tim. 4:1-5, and I understand your argument. You should understand that in that context, however, you placed me and others arguing our position outside the faith (vs. 1)! Is that really what you mean?

I believe you’d argue that music falls within the category of “every creature of God” - with nothing to be refused. Even in the context of meats, its not as broad as it may first appear. Let’s broaden the spectrum very little to include only drinks or other consumables. Is the only guiding principle that we give thanks over it, and in such cases nothing is to be refused? What about alcohol, narcotics, poisons? Even some meats might be poisonous and harmful to the body. We still apply practical principles found in Scripture to this statement. I believe the context is clearly what we see in Acts 10-11, where God specifically lifts the ban of the law on “unclean” foods. This is to reflect the Spiritual principle of the washing of Christ’s blood which makes all things (read: Gentiles) clean. So in effect, to restrict eating of meats is symbolically tied to a denial of Christ’s atoning work. The wickedness in prohibiting these meats is the spiritual symbolism tied to doing so!

Prohibiting certain types of music does not carry the same effect, because God has not used it to symbolize the same thing as meats. It’s use/prohibition does not imply the same thing.

Now, is every type of music “good” and “nothing to be refused”? Even though I believe applying music to this passage and statement is a stretch contextually, I’ll try it. As many have said, music is communication - similar (but not the same) to the way art is communication. The paintbrush, canvas, and paints are not inherently good or evil. Even the finished painting itself (as a combination of these items) is not inherently good or evil. However, the purpose (or at least the consequence) of combining all these elements is communicative; meaning that what it communicates carries a moral weight.

Again, music is so subjective that at times this becomes difficult to quantify. However, just as with a painted picture, there are some areas which should be easy to quantify. The “sound” in Exodus 32:17-18 and the “sound” of I Sam. 16:23 communicated very different things; one of which was evil and one of which was good. This is a simplistic answer, but I believe that by applying principles found throughout Scripture, there is ample evidence to conclude that God would expect us to bring our music styles in subjection to Him as well.

[Mike Harding]

Is rap / hiphop generally perceived in our culture as sexual, violent, misogynist, and expressive of the values in urban culture?

To me, yes.

That being said, I can understand that not all rap songs are one or all of these things (sexual, violent, misogynistic, etc). If you go WAAAAY old school, Coolio’s Gangsta Paradise (link to lyrics only) from the movie “Dangerous Minds” (which I have not seen) was none of these, although it does reference violence more than a few times.

I don’t like rap and would not endorse it for congregational worship (I can understand why some would for individual worship), but I remember that song vividly from high school. It portrayed a lot of the emptiness and futility that I was dealing with at the time, and it’s a very sad song. To be honest, it reminded me a lot of the book of Ecclesiastes.

Rappin with Qoheleth, hmmm?: “There’s a time to win and a time to lose, a time to wait and a time to choose– a bop ba da lu bop, zis bam bou!”

Sorry Jay, but I couldn’t resist the temptation.

[Joel Shaffer]

You just proved my point! The only ones that still make that connection of rock music and rebellion and free love in our culture are the fundamentalists…..

The issue is not music, per se. It is culture defining idolatry and the instruments/inventions of that idolatry (and, since idolatry and immorality are like conjoined twins, immorality is also the issue). Every culture on the face of the planet has several defining factors, not the least of which is what it worships. Most cultures are idolatrous, and that idolatry permeates every level, even to the level of normal commerce and accepted customs. Know the worship structure of the culture and you can identify the idolatry, idols, and other inventions of that idolatry. And scripturally, you MUST keep them out of the church and the life of the disciple at every level. And yes, they vary from culture to culture so that the instruments and inventions of one culture may be completely meaningless in another.

While music plays a part in the worship practice of almost every culture’s specific form of worship/idolatries, there are some idolatries that are defined by the music. The “shaman” music/dance of native American cultures might be a good example, as would some of the tribal music of some African cultures steeped in the spiritism of those cultures. Though that does not mean the music represented in these cultures is inherently evil, as a defining element of their idolatry, even though it could be argued that it is just a societal custom, scripturally it cannot be incorporated into true worship of God within the sphere of that culture without violating scripture, particularly passages such as I Cor. 10:18-22.

Though of a much more subtle design than the ancestor and spirit worship of the aforementioned cultures, our own macro-culture is defined by idolatry , a core element of which is a very specific genre of music and its associated spin-offs, which effectively brings the culture in general into accord with that idolatry. Scripturally we cannot bring even this outside ring of idolatry into the church. “Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table and the table of devils.”

Is rap/hiphop generally perceived in our culture as sexual, violent, misogynist, and expressive of the values in urban culture?

As more and more underground hip-hop (non-commercial hip-hop with socially conscience and positive lyrics) and Christian Hip-hop have become mainstream over the past 10 years or so, those who are 40 and younger see certain types (such as Christian and Underground) of hip-hop as positive and the commercial hip-hop artists such as Lil Wayne as sexual, violent, and misogynist…….

[Lee]

[Joel Shaffer]

You just proved my point! The only ones that still make that connection of rock music and rebellion and free love in our culture are the fundamentalists…..

The issue is not music, per se. It is culture defining idolatry and the instruments/inventions of that idolatry (and, since idolatry and immorality are like conjoined twins, immorality is also the issue). Every culture on the face of the planet has several defining factors, not the least of which is what it worships. Most cultures are idolatrous, and that idolatry permeates every level, even to the level of normal commerce and accepted customs. Know the worship structure of the culture and you can identify the idolatry, idols, and other inventions of that idolatry. And scripturally, you MUST keep them out of the church and the life of the disciple at every level. And yes, they vary from culture to culture so that the instruments and inventions of one culture may be completely meaningless in another.

While music plays a part in the worship practice of almost every culture’s specific form of worship/idolatries, there are some idolatries that are defined by the music. The “shaman” music/dance of native American cultures might be a good example, as would some of the tribal music of some African cultures steeped in the spiritism of those cultures. Though that does not mean the music represented in these cultures is inherently evil, as a defining element of their idolatry, even though it could be argued that it is just a societal custom, scripturally it cannot be incorporated into true worship of God within the sphere of that culture without violating scripture, particularly passages such as I Cor. 10:18-22.

Though of a much more subtle design than the ancestor and spirit worship of the aforementioned cultures, our own macro-culture is defined by idolatry , a core element of which is a very specific genre of music and its associated spin-offs, which effectively brings the culture in general into accord with that idolatry. Scripturally we cannot bring even this outside ring of idolatry into the church. “Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table and the table of devils.”

It is because of Scripture that I will not keep them out of the church and out of the disciple’s life because I am responsible before God to protect those under my care from such dualistic thinking that declares certain things bad what God created good. I have argued this elsewhere. http://sharperiron.org/comment/50438#comment-50438 Wow…maybe I am reading you wrong, but it seems as if you are making your convictions about this an absolute!

Earlier on this and another thread I put up a few posts concerning the music issue. That broke a long-standing personal rule, and I wish I had not broken it. Not because the matter is unimportant, but because there are so many pieces to the argument that it cannot be addressed hit-and-miss in a discussion forum like this. Coherence on this issue requires a sustained conversation, and the fact is that I have too many other things to do in the real world to be able to devote the necessary time and effort to a drive-by discussion on a very ephemeral medium.

I suspect that it looks like I just want to lob a grenade or two and then duck out. That’s not the case. There’s just too much else going on.

So my apologies for putting out bait and then not pulling the trigger.

Kevin

[Mike Harding]

Rappin with Qoheleth, hmmm?: “There’s a time to win and a time to lose, a time to wait and a time to choose– a bop ba da lu bop, zis bam bou!”

Sorry Jay, but I couldn’t resist the temptation.

Mike -

Tell you what - you write the song and I’ll listen to it. We both ‘win’…or something. Something being the operative term.

:D

Ok, I am going to check out for awhile because of many ministry responsibilities that I have going on……..

[Andrew K.]

Incidentally, I was just listening to Shai Linne’s “Fal$e Teacher$” and thought of an interesting question:

Even allowing for views on rock music, what do people have against rap as an art form? I’m serious. I’m not a huge rap fan, I admit. But listening to it… it isn’t really even music in one sense, is it?

I’m currently teaching a poetry unit and we’ve talked some about various rhythms poets utilize. That’s all rap seems to be—a fast-paced colloquial poetry where a beat emphasizes the rhythm. It’s really very verbal. How can it be affecting our emotions sensually?

I was reading some Cowper the other day and noticed something fascinating. As most would agree, Cowper was an excellent lyricist (poet if you prefer). One of his strengths was his variety. Some of his longer, prose like poems follow the same rythmic pattern and cadence and ryhmn scheme as “rap.” Now I am not professionally trained, but I tried to rap Cowper and found that it flowed perfectly. BTW, I don’t get rap and am unconvinced that it is appropriate for worship and probably will remain unconvinced as I still think the association is still too close (in time mostly) to the negative associations with it. But I found it interesting that Cowper could be done as “fast-paced colloquial poetry.”

Here is one of his poems that could be done as a lyrical art in the modern “rap” sense.

http://www.puritansermons.com/poetry/cowper1.htm

Actually, the poetic/rhythmic form of rap is kind of pleasing to my ear, what irritates my sensibilities in rap is the background noise and (IMO) “musical instrumentation” implanted in the “song.” For example, Linne’s “False Teachers” rap was interesting to listen to, but the constant vocal backups and the music attached was distracting. I am sure that for those who listen to rap, those elements are essential.

[Mike Harding]

Rappin with Qoheleth, hmmm?: “There’s a time to win and a time to lose, a time to wait and a time to choose– a bop ba da lu bop, zis bam bou!”

Sorry Jay, but I couldn’t resist the temptation.

Sorry, Mike, neither could I…

Greg,

I’m speechless. That’s what you get when you fuse a picture of Jerry Falwell and Patch the Pirate. I knew that moment of levity would get me into trouble.

Joel Shaffer wrote:

You just proved my point! The only ones that still make that connection of rock music and rebellion and free love in our culture are the fundamentalists…..

The only people who say that are the CCM types who use that type of argument to marginalize conservatives.

That quote is absolutely horrible! It is almost as bad as Jason Janz’ quote in Pensees about music that it has “such minimal actual impact on a person’s sanctification.” Truly, people that attend a Madonna or Kid Rock concert come away singing “Jesus Loves Me” all the way home.

I just did a quick Google search for things Rock Stars (and I do not mean rock stars just from the 60’s either) say about their own music and the influence it has on themselves and other people. I’ve already heard plenty, just wanted to verify.

Both Joel & Jason need to get out more if they actually believe what they are saying. I honestly can’t believe I read those quotes.

Found this quote about music. Guess who said it?

“… . is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe.”

Pope Benedict XVI

Who knew Benedict was a stuffy ol’ Fundy.