"Are 'Christian' and 'rap' mutually exclusive? Hardly."
[Charlie] Can I separate from a church if they have a really ugly sanctuary…?Interesting question, considering the effort that european cathedral architects put into reflecting Theology in buildings designed for worship. They would probably have cause to see our buildings as inappropriate for the high purpose of worship, much as some here see some musical forms inappropriate for worship.
[Susan] Are people who eat at McD’s every day stupid, or do they have a death wish? I doubt it.Hmmm… Why would you doubt these?
[Daniel] Susan…actually, I heard a report the other day that put McD towards the top of the list of healthy places to eat, and restaurants that we think healthy at the bottom. It had to do with nutritional value and meal size. I still will not eat anything from them except a coke, milk shake, and ice cream…Anyways, carry on. Just found that interesting.
There are healthy offerings at even the most greasiest of greasy spoons, but most folks don’t go to McD’s to munch on green stuff- they go for the QP w/ cheese, the crispy fries, the thick milkshakes… I’ve told my dh to have McD’s cater my funeral. That way all my friends will join me asap. :p
Why do some of us oppose rap music? We oppose it because of its associations with “Gansta” culture. However, the question remains, is rap (in and of itself) sinful?
The discussion we’re having today could have been on card playing or desecrating the Lord’s Day in the 1920’s and 1930’s. It could have been on interracial marriage in the 1940’s and 1950’s. It could have been on women wearing pants in the 1960’s and 1970’s. It could have been on Bible translations in the 1980’s. Now, the discussion has turned to subjects such as alcohol and music.
What am I saying? YF’s are discouraged, IMO, because the line between right and wrong keeps changing! CE’s sit smugly back and say, “We base our doctrine and practice on the Scriptures,” and they insinuate that Fundamentalists, like the Pharisees of old, have added new rules to the Bible to keep folks in line. When the rules keep falling, YF’s look for something more stable to run to.
In 20 years, most within nominal Fundamentalism will probably see nothing wrong with expressing oneself in worship by using various styles of music, including Rap.
YF’s do not want to rise to the top within the ranks of Fundamentalism. Instead, they want to be on the cutting edge. Therefore, they are lining up with those who represent the future of Fundamentalism (if it continues going in its present direction): Conservative Evangelicalism.
Kevin Bauder’s comments on populism, common sense, and sentamentalism all apply to this thread. Why do we oppose rap? Well, it isn’t popular amongst a mostly white audience, it seems like common sense to oppose a music genre associated with the baser elements of society, and we like traditional hymns because we grew up with them.
Don’t get me wrong: I oppose the recreational and worshipful use of rap music. However, does the fact that our arguements against it are not based on the Bible mean that our opposition to it, as a movement, is doomed to failure?
This thread practically applies some of the theoretical concepts that we have been discussing in other threads on SI. We need these practical workshops.
.
BTW, what’s the difference between camp cheers and rap? I’ve always wanted to know! :-)
The discussion we’re having today could have been on card playing or desecrating the Lord’s Day in the 1920’s and 1930’s. It could have been on interracial marriage in the 1940’s and 1950’s. It could have been on women wearing pants in the 1960’s and 1970’s. It could have been on Bible translations in the 1980’s. Now, the discussion has turned to subjects such as alcohol and music.
What am I saying? YF’s are discouraged, IMO, because the line between right and wrong keeps changing! CE’s sit smugly back and say, “We base our doctrine and practice on the Scriptures,” and they insinuate that Fundamentalists, like the Pharisees of old, have added new rules to the Bible to keep folks in line. When the rules keep falling, YF’s look for something more stable to run to.
In 20 years, most within nominal Fundamentalism will probably see nothing wrong with expressing oneself in worship by using various styles of music, including Rap.
YF’s do not want to rise to the top within the ranks of Fundamentalism. Instead, they want to be on the cutting edge. Therefore, they are lining up with those who represent the future of Fundamentalism (if it continues going in its present direction): Conservative Evangelicalism.
Kevin Bauder’s comments on populism, common sense, and sentamentalism all apply to this thread. Why do we oppose rap? Well, it isn’t popular amongst a mostly white audience, it seems like common sense to oppose a music genre associated with the baser elements of society, and we like traditional hymns because we grew up with them.
Don’t get me wrong: I oppose the recreational and worshipful use of rap music. However, does the fact that our arguements against it are not based on the Bible mean that our opposition to it, as a movement, is doomed to failure?
This thread practically applies some of the theoretical concepts that we have been discussing in other threads on SI. We need these practical workshops.
.
BTW, what’s the difference between camp cheers and rap? I’ve always wanted to know! :-)
The question raised by the interview, IMO, is not about the use of rap (or any artistic expression that reflects one’s culture) in the worship and edifying of the saints, but to make the Gospel message interesting and understandable to the lost, and to assist in ‘making preaching applicable’. I still would love to know what that means exactly… I’ll have to listen to the interview again and see if I missed something.
I’d also like to hear about how rap qualifies as ‘music’, since my understanding of music is that it is the use of melody and harmony in a structured manner. Rapping is rhythmic chanting, isn’t it? Is chanting recognized as music, and how can it be used within Biblical guidelines/definitions of ‘music’?
I’d also like to hear about how rap qualifies as ‘music’, since my understanding of music is that it is the use of melody and harmony in a structured manner. Rapping is rhythmic chanting, isn’t it? Is chanting recognized as music, and how can it be used within Biblical guidelines/definitions of ‘music’?
[Susan R]Susan,
Expressing one’s distaste for rap is not the same as ‘taking potshots’ at people. Do you think McDonald’s is junk food? Most people do. Does that mean you hate people who work at McD’s, or believe they are part of a wide spread conspiracy to make people fat and result in their early demise due to heart disease and high blood pressure? Are people who eat at McD’s every day stupid, or do they have a death wish? I doubt it. We shouldn’t make it impossible for people to express their opinion or dislike for something without being accused of being offensive or attacking people.
I think the question should be- is it Biblically supportable to use ‘music’ as a method of making preaching more palatable or applicable? On this issue I do not think those men were ‘deep’ or ‘theologically sound’.
I would just think at least that you should at least know about rap and/or music before publicly dismissing it. For example, in your first post, you made this statement.
About rap. It isn’t singing, it is chanting. IMO it should not be called music- it doesn’t incorporate melody or harmony in a structured manner on any planet.This is incorrect for any number of reasons and demonstrates my point. Harmony has rarely if ever been part of any music until the last half of the last millenium and then only in Western music. For centuries, music was chanting. And at least some rap is undoubtedly structured; those men discussed at length the structure of rap in the interview. You obviously don’t understand the structure, that does not mean that it does not exist.
[Susan R]Isn’t this what most churches do with hymns every week? So if we are saying it is not Biblical to do this with rap, then it is also not Biblical do this with hymns. Is there a difference that I am missing?[Susan R] I think the question should be- is it Biblically supportable to use ‘music’ as a method of making preaching more palatable or applicable? On this issue I do not think those men were ‘deep’ or ‘theologically sound’.[rogercarlson] Susan,
I would be curious as to why you don’t think these men were theologically sound or deep?
On the topic of using music to ‘apply preaching’ or make the message of the Gospel more interesting to the lost, I did not hear any Biblical foundation given for this premise.
We need to take Biblical principle and apply it to our methods, instead of taking our methods and squishing them into the Bible.
Ricky
[RickyHorton]
Isn’t this what most churches do with hymns every week? So if we are saying it is not Biblical to do this with rap, then it is also not Biblical do this with hymns. Is there a difference that I am missing?
Ricky
Is that how most churches use music? To make the preaching applicable and interesting to the lost?
As for the musical quality of rap, perhaps one has to have an ‘ear’ for it to hear its musical qualities or perceive its structure. I shall hereafter claim complete ignorance about the musical qualities of rap.
I’ve asked a question that so far has remained unanswered- is it Biblically supportable to use ‘music’ as a method of making preaching more palatable or applicable? If we are doing this regularly in our churches, there must be some Scriptural basis, right?
The contradictions I am seeing are that many have utterly rejected evangelism as practiced by Jack Hyles and company, where the “anything goes as long as it gets them in” is viewed with distaste and even scorn. What is so different about using rap or country/western or thrash to propagate the Gospel? I also see folks protesting the shallow and sentimental content of hymnbooks, and many advocate a return to songs that contain heavy doses of Scripture instead of stories about how Jesus took the wheel.
I personally don’t care one wit for “how it has always been done”- how does what we do measure up to Scripture? I’m not asking because I think I have all the answers, but because it is THE question we must always ask about our beliefs and methodologies. If we have traditions that under intense Biblical scrutiny are insipid and of little spiritual value, let’s buck up and get rid of the clutter and go forward.
[Susan R] I personally don’t care one wit for “how it has always been done”- how does what we do measure up to Scripture?
Ouch! :Sp Susan, now you’ve “gone to meddlin’!”
Susan,
I agree with you in that the primary reason for music is NOT evangelism. I would say that music is to reinforce the Word. That is why we sing songs, hymns and spiritual songs. I need to listen to the discussion again too. Because, I thought that is what the men were saying (although making preaching applical was a poor choice of words). When I was asking you to explain, I was refering to when they were not talking about music.
Also I should be clear. I am not saying the songs in hymnals are shallow. The problem is our former Hymnal was not really a hymns but gospel songs. There is a huge difference, between “Amazing Grace” and “Love lifted me.” So what we have done in our church is mainly sing hymns - once in a while a group, solo or duet will sing a modern hymn. We almost never sing gospel songs, because most are shallow and don’t reinforce much.
I agree with you in that the primary reason for music is NOT evangelism. I would say that music is to reinforce the Word. That is why we sing songs, hymns and spiritual songs. I need to listen to the discussion again too. Because, I thought that is what the men were saying (although making preaching applical was a poor choice of words). When I was asking you to explain, I was refering to when they were not talking about music.
Also I should be clear. I am not saying the songs in hymnals are shallow. The problem is our former Hymnal was not really a hymns but gospel songs. There is a huge difference, between “Amazing Grace” and “Love lifted me.” So what we have done in our church is mainly sing hymns - once in a while a group, solo or duet will sing a modern hymn. We almost never sing gospel songs, because most are shallow and don’t reinforce much.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
[Susan R]And I agree with you 100%. Yet how many in this thread are ready to condemn these rappers (I personally hate rap yet don’t see anything intrinsically evil about these guys), yet do not apply their same methodologies to hymns. We need to consistently apply Scripture…even to our own traditions.
I personally don’t care one wit for “how it has always been done”- how does what we do measure up to Scripture? I’m not asking because I think I have all the answers, but because it is THE question we must always ask about our beliefs and methodologies. If we have traditions that under intense Biblical scrutiny are insipid and of little spiritual value, let’s buck up and get rid of the clutter and go forward.
That being said, is there anything wrong with singing a hymn that reinforces the message or makes the message more “acceptable to the mind” (definition of “palatable” according to Webster)? The original question you posed was “I think the question should be- is it Biblically supportable to use ‘music’ as a method of making preaching more palatable or applicable?” I know I do this with hymns in our church. If I know the sermon topic, I will try to use hymns that reinforce the sermon. If Scripture prohibits this, then I hope someone will point it out quickly. I have a feeling someone will say that this is in reference to using music evangelistically. Does it matter whether we use it to reinforce the message for Christians or the unsaved? I’d be interested in seeing the biblical support one way or the other on this if someone has anything.
My point in all this is that we need to apply the same principles to whatever our preferred music is rather than just the kinds we don’t like.
Ricky
Ricky- I think that is where a forum like this can be very valuable- oftentimes our questions lead to better questions. But just because we haven’t asked a certain question yet doesn’t mean that we can’t ask any. IOW, there are hymns that we’ve always sung without asking ourselves their spiritual value or accuracy of message. It’s just like when I put something by the door so I’ll remember to bring it with me to church. If it sits there too long, it becomes invisible. Maybe this only happens to me, but in my experience, the things that we view as ‘normal’ are not based on whether or not they are good and right, but what we are accustomed to. It’s not an evil intention either, just oversight.
So if we can ask ourselves if it is appropriate to use new and popular music forms to reach out to the lost, then perhaps we will also turn those critical insights inward to how we use music now.
I don’t see how these rappers have been condemned, however. I don’t understand how rap can be considered a quality music form, nor how it can legitimately be used to make the Gospel interesting so the lost will want to come to church, nor how long it takes for unpleasant associations to be distant enough for something like rap to be spiritually useful. But that doesn’t mean I think those men are bad, stupid, or carnal. I have questions and doubts, that’s all. And I need to listen to the interview again, because first time through I was multi-tasking quite a bit and might have missed hearing information that would help answer those questions.
So if we can ask ourselves if it is appropriate to use new and popular music forms to reach out to the lost, then perhaps we will also turn those critical insights inward to how we use music now.
I don’t see how these rappers have been condemned, however. I don’t understand how rap can be considered a quality music form, nor how it can legitimately be used to make the Gospel interesting so the lost will want to come to church, nor how long it takes for unpleasant associations to be distant enough for something like rap to be spiritually useful. But that doesn’t mean I think those men are bad, stupid, or carnal. I have questions and doubts, that’s all. And I need to listen to the interview again, because first time through I was multi-tasking quite a bit and might have missed hearing information that would help answer those questions.
The fact is that Christian rap music has been around since at least 1986, this is nothing new. What is new is that the Christian rap music is getting more doctrinal and theological.
For people like myself it is the Country music, Southern Gospel and Blue Grass type music that is weird and foreign.
Many of your comments give the impression to Christians of other cultures or age groups that “if you want to be a mature, Biblical Christian, you need to become like us” that is, dress like us, talk like us, listen to our kind of music, etc.
For people like myself it is the Country music, Southern Gospel and Blue Grass type music that is weird and foreign.
Many of your comments give the impression to Christians of other cultures or age groups that “if you want to be a mature, Biblical Christian, you need to become like us” that is, dress like us, talk like us, listen to our kind of music, etc.
Jason E. Schaitel MCP
co-founder FrancisSchaefferStudies.org
student at Veritas School of Theology
[Larry] Would you perhaps highlight some of these comments for us, and tell us how they are “offensive”?The dismissive remarks from Aaron and Susan would be examples. As if rap is not even worth Aaron’s consideration and is not even music according to Susan. I am sure no one is a racist, but that comes across as implying that music from other cultures is so pathetic, it is not worth our time or effort to understand.
Could you discuss this culture and how it is expresses its values through rap. Why does this culture choose rap, and what does the style of communication mean?I am no expert on rap. It seems clear that none of us are. But it would seem to me that we could at least try to understand that genre before we judge or dismiss it.
I made that statement because in the arts, it is common that people have to understand before they can like. Modern classical music is an example as is some jazz. It sounds like noise until you understand it. If you talk to a rap artist (or listen to that interview), it is quite likely that you will discover that rap is a bit more sophisticated than some might give it credit for. Only when you understand the sophistication can you begin to appreciate it.What we don’t understand, we don’t like or appreciate.Always? Aren’t there times when understanding things brings out more dislike? Why don’t you “have a feeling that if we understood more about rap, we would [not] appreciate some things about it”? In other words, I am trying to figure out the basis from which you are making this statement. What sort of reasoning did you use to get here?
[GregH]When I said I didn’t consider rap to be music, it wasn’t in the sense of “rap is such garbage it shouldn’t be considered music”, but “Is rap by Biblical definition ‘music’?”.[Larry] Would you perhaps highlight some of these comments for us, and tell us how they are “offensive”?The dismissive remarks from Aaron and Susan would be examples. As if rap is not even worth Aaron’s consideration and is not even music according to Susan. I am sure no one is a racist, but that comes across as implying that music from other cultures is so pathetic, it is not worth our time or effort to understand.
As for understanding something before it can be appreciated, I can agree with that to some extent. Continued exposure will often result in developing a ‘taste’ for something. I mean, who ever thought whiskey or beer tasted good the first time they drank it? Who truly enjoyed their first cigarette, cup of coffee, bowl of steamed broccoli? If you listen to anything often enough, you’ll end up liking it- just as I learned to like the KISS Destroyer album as a kid because my neighbor played it constantly… and she also played the Oak Ridge Boys at least as much. I am surprised I survived with my wits intact.
It is impossible to be perfectly objective about music. Didn’t someone already say something like “we need to ask what God considered to be beautiful”? Doesn’t God have preferences that He has expressed in His Word? Do we even take attempt to apply what Scripture says about music to our churches and our cultures?
+Moderator Note+
I edited my post to remove a misinterpretation of GregH’s comments, and then removed his post about my post. So now we’re all nicely back on topic. Please excuse my taking mod action in a thread in which I am also engaged in conversation. Hat changing is sometimes necessary, and my goal is to maintain the integrity of the thread, but if you have any questions or concerns about this action, please direct them via email or PM to myself, Aaron, or Jim (when he gets back from rehab).
JUST KIDDING! HURRY BACK JIM!
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
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