John Vaughn (FBFI President/CEO): "one thing is clear: this video ends the fiction that 'Northland has not changed.'”

[jcoleman]

BJU regularly yanks chapel messages too (even from Dr. Bob III), but I don’t hear anyone accusing them (on SI) of dishonesty.

Well, if so, I ‘m not aware of them. Let me know- maybe I’ll contribute to that thread, too… ;)

Greg and Jay,

Years ago under Les Ollila I was invited to speak on music at Northland. I spoke an expositional message on Phil 4:8. I then presented a topical message on The Beauty of God. Both were very strong messages on a principle and application basis. Les told me that those were the most helpful messages the school had ever heard on the subject. He was 100% for them. When Matt came over to Northland 10 years ago, I was never invited back to speak on the subject or any other subject for that matter. Did Matt ever bring in experts in this field to chapel and class in order to educate the students under his presidency—People like Bauder or Aniol for instance? Also, did the school ever have written policies about music in their handbook, employee manual, published statements on doctrine or philosophy? If they did, exactly when did they officially change those written documents?

[Greg Linscott]

[jcoleman]

BJU regularly yanks chapel messages too (even from Dr. Bob III), but I don’t hear anyone accusing them (on SI) of dishonesty.

Well, if so, I ‘m not aware of them. Let me know- maybe I’ll contribute to that thread, too… ;)

Some of them really should be yanked—I remember two specifically from an open evangelistic services special speaker during the first semester of my junior year there a couple of years ago that were…particularly insulting.

As far as the Dr. Bob III ones, well, some of those need to be yanked, but I wouldn’t recommend getting in on the discussion as that might put you in the odd company of the Do Right BJU type folks :)

[Mike Harding] When Matt came over to Northland 10 years ago, I was never invited back to speak on the subject or any other subject for that matter. Did Matt ever bring in experts in this field to chapel and class in order to educate the students under his presidency—People like Bauder or Aniol for instance? Also, did the school ever have written policies about music in their handbook, employee manual, published statements on doctrine or philosophy? If they did, exactly when did they officially change those written documents?

I don’t know. Given what I know from my time at Northland, I’m fairly sure someone would have come in at some point, but I don’t actually know. I graduated long before Olson came onboard. I would think that Bauder would have been brought in to speak, but that was a long time ago - well before Dr. Bauder became as well-known as he is now.

We did have an introduction to music class that was required of all students (first year, first semester), but it was more of an “exposure to classical music” type class than anything that dealt with the principles we’re discussing here on SI, from what I can remember. It looks like there is some kind of class like that now that all students must take (PHI 302 Christian and the Arts), but I have no idea who teaches it or what textbooks they use. Or, for that matter, what the actual position is that they’re teaching.

I do think it was probably a good idea to move it out of the Freshman level because we had quite a few block classes my freshman year and it was overwhelming to me to have so many short block classes. I’d also support moving it to Junior year, after the students have started taking courses on theology and exegesis (as opposed to a guy like me who had no idea about what was acceptable other than the school said so and adopted their standard because it kept me out of trouble).

And, yes, some messages at BJU should definitely be pulled from the catalog. There are some real whoppers in there. :)

Did Matt ever bring in experts in this field to chapel and class in order to educate the students under his presidency—People like Bauder or Aniol for instance? Also, did the school ever have written policies about music in their handbook, employee manual, published statements on doctrine or philosophy? If they did, exactly when did they officially change those written documents?

Mike,

Bringing in Bauder and Aniol would be good (I think). However, I think that even most fundamentalists would not agree with their conclusions (not just the ones traveling in NIU’s trajectory). Bauder would, for example, identify problems with a great deal of the Majesty Music catalog, for example. As he himself acknowledged in a thread entry here recently, there are times he chooses not to sing. Whether you think that is a good idea or not, I know that there are those in leadership in Fundamentalist institutions that aren’t agreeable to exposing their students to that.

Scott would probably be more nuanced and less controversial than Bauder, I believe- but would likely invite some unrelated controversy of his own, teaching at an SBC school as he does.

But again, this illustrates why I don’t think you can say there is one Fundamentalist position on music. I mean, you look at all the different manifestations just in “BJU Fundamentalism,” as it has been referred to here. Who would be representative of that? Dwight Gustafson or Patch the Pirate? Mac Lynch or the Steve Pettit Team? Fred Coleman or Scott Aniol? It gets more complicated as you branch out from there into other overlapping circles.

In the end, I don’t think that having Bauder in once a year at NIU would have altered things significantly. Bauder hasn’t even convinced the other Central professors fully of the nuances of all his positions. That’s no knock against Kevin or what he believes, either. It’s just where things are at.

[dgszweda]

[Jay]

[TylerR] I do contend that CCM is indicative of an evangelical approach to ministry, in that it mimics secular music. It is more appealing to contemporary audiences because there is a corollary between the musical style of CCM and secular music. I contend this is reflective of the historic evangelical philosophy eschewing militant separation at the expense of love - to greater or lesser degrees depending on the nature of the ministry and temperament of the Pastor, etc.

Tyler,

As an attender of an ‘conservative evangelical’ / ‘fundamentalist’ church, we do not mimic secular music for evangelism. That may be your experience or idea of what non-Fundamentalist churches do; it may be what you are told by traditional music advocates, but it is not our music philosophy. Never has been and never will be (as long as Pastor, our deacons/elders, and I have something to say about it).

I’ll be happy to provide a copy of our church music policy to any who ask.

This is a good point, as I am a member of a CE church that is not in the fundamentalist circle, and we do not mimic secular music as well, although we may sing a CCM (lite) song once in a while. We would not allow the NIU group Redeemed to minister in our church, although many members and elders may listen to them and/or go to one of their concerts (or whatever they would call them). We have not only a fairly strict and concise music philosophy, but also a very concise and detailed way in which we conduct the church services, neither of which resemble what we would even consider the looseness of fundamenalist church services. I think sometimes fundamentalist (of which I still feel I sit in that camp to some degree), paint conservative evangelical churches into one camp, which as a member now for a year and interacting with other CE churches fully realize is not anywhere close to the situation. Just as it is in fundamentalism.

Dave,

thanks for this. I am familiar with some of the pastoral staff at a church in the area that is confessional reformed, and among those we would label as CE, though they don’t seem to use those labels much. Their pastors would never think of appearing in anything but a black suit and black tie in their pulpit. If they were preaching elsewhere, they would have freedom to do otherwise, but at home, for the sake of propriety and for matters related to reverence, etc, they have something of a uniform. Yet, to worship with them is to find a freedom and a joy which is delightfully connected to the Text, etc. At their choral concerts they might have more modern songs (but not of the type heard in the video), but their practice on the Lord’s Day is Psalm singing. I would not say they alone “have it figured out”—but with their history in confessions, creeds, catechisms, and ties to Reformed and English Puritan practices/teachings, they help bring out a richness and a connectivity to Christian heritage which is phenomenally helpful in areas of worship—and is lacking in much of the free-wheeling fundy/CE stuff I see. Seeing what they attempt to do makes the notion of introducing CCM songs into their liturgy seem like introducing Tater Tots as the main course in a 5 star restaurant’s menu. Their church is filled with young and old, not just from “old reformed” families, but from evangelistic efforts in their neighborhood. While they would likely not want to make remarks about the wisdom/propriety of what NIU is doing w/ their Redeemed team, the sense I get is they might ask “why feed the next generation of worshipers this kind of food when they may starve?” But, they would leave them to it, and perhaps see if they might be able to come in and preach on invitation. I am amazed at some of the areas in which they are strict, and where they are “loose” (so-called) at least in relation to some of the standards exhibited by members at SI.

Last night I started to put Vaughn’s statements in context a bit. I am familiar with the FBFI, but am not part of it, but I realized that for some in the FBFI, “Northland” may have been out of bounds way before Matt Olson came on board. For example, consider that Watertown, WI (Maranatha) and Menomonee Falls, WI (BCM) are only about 35 miles apart. The impression I get from some who like BCM is that Maranatha is quite worldly. Of course this is not representative of all of the FBFI, but perhaps this explains a part of what is going on.

[Dan McGhee] Some real life persecution would do the people of God, and especially pastors here in the USA, some good. Perhaps then, with the testing of our faith, all of this foolish, petty, nit-pickiness, where brothers are attacking brothers over non-essential matters, would end.

[Dan McGhee]… you want to fight with your brothers because they are allowing their students to use guitars and drums?

[jcoleman] So the question ends up being whether NIU is a disobedient brother. And to answer this question, we might ask this “If they continue doing what they’re doing, would I practice church discipline on them? Which is to say, am I going to treat them as an unbeliever?”

Since I don’t believe for a moment that they should be treated as unbelievers, I don’t believe that you can call them disobedient brothers.

It strikes me that you have this backwards. In essence, you are deciding whether one has broken the law (disobedience) by whether you feel that they should be punished (treated as an unbeliever). Instead, you should be judging disobedience by comparing the deeds, doctrines, or affections to the applicable commands and related principles of God’s Word.

[Brent Marshall]

[Dan McGhee] Some real life persecution would do the people of God, and especially pastors here in the USA, some good. Perhaps then, with the testing of our faith, all of this foolish, petty, nit-pickiness, where brothers are attacking brothers over non-essential matters, would end.

On what basis do you say that the issues are not essential? Is this not a matter of how we worship God? How can we call this supreme duty non-essential?

[Dan McGhee]… you want to fight with your brothers because they are allowing their students to use guitars and drums?

Have I missed something? Who is objecting to the guitar and drums per se? It has seemed to me that the objections involve how and why they are being used. That is different.

Brent, let’s decide if musical style is an essential matter of doctrine by simply quoting all the specific passages of Scripture that deal with the issue. You go first.

Now substance or content is a different matter. Scripture speaks clearly and forcefully to the issue.

Ephesians 4:29.

Your turn.

[Scott Aniol]

Ephesians 4:29.

Your turn.

Oh, I see. This verse speaks to the matter of musical style/genre? Ok, then… So, here’s my verse Genesis 1:2.

[Scott Aniol]

Ephesians 4:29.

Your turn.

Scott -

Waiting for you to demonstrate how you get from:

Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:17-21)

to this:

So the highest value in terms of Christianity and culture is not preserving the indigenous culture of every people group, whether American culture or Indonesian culture. The highest value is preserving, or in some cases introducing, cultural forms that best express biblical values. Sometimes those forms will reflect the surrounding culture; many times they will not. -A Distinctly Christian Culture

As easily and simply as possible, please, for those of us who aren’t musicians.

[Brent Marshall] OK, Dan, let’s work with that. Two questions: 1. How would you complete this sentence: “Scripture clearly and forcefully says that the substance and content must be ….”? I am thinking of the primary attributes of right substance/content. What do you think they are? 2. How is substance or content a different matter than musical style?

I’m not going to have a philosophical discussion with you concerning this subject. No offense, but I’ve done that in the past, even in the very early days of Sharper Iron and found it to be wasted time. I’m sorry, but I just don’t have the time for that.

However, I will discuss the specific passages of Scripture that speak directly to the matter of musical style/genres that God prescribes for His people.

I’m waiting for you to list one that you believe speaks to this matter. Scott just listed one that he believes speaks to this issue specifically, and I’ve listed one as well that equally speaks to it.

Having a philosophical argument regarding musical style is like having a philosophical argument over whether Bible Colleges ought to exist or not. At the end of the day, nobody’s opinion is changed, and even when you try to go to the Word of God to support your position, it still comes back to God’s silence regarding that subject. Which, of course means, that its a matter of personal preference based on one’s convictions - and this ought to cause us to give great liberty to our brothers and sisters who see the matter differently.