An Examination of Sovereign Grace Ministries and Getty-Townend For Use in Fundamental Christian Churches (Part 2)

[Don Johnson]

And of course no one can find a passage that states any style of music is good or evil, so your comment is irrelevant. We can show that human emotions themselves are part of that which is corrupted by the fall, and from that we can reason that as music expresses or portrays such emotions it will more or less display that depravity. More or less depending on how thoroughly or plainly the corrupted emotions are put on display.

But isn’t that the whole point? We don’t believe that this kind of music expresses evil/corrupt emotions. And our conscience is clear. If you would bind our conscience, then you must offer good evidence that it should be bound.

But what else can “salvation is no longer by legal obedience” mean other than that it was by legal disobedience before the church age?

This probably isn’t the place for this, so we should not detract further from the topic. Let me only respond that more than fifty years of classical dispensational scholarship has expressly denied this, and even covenant theologians acknowledge that. I am not sure what else to say. This has been so clearly refuted and answered for years and years that it continues to be remarkable that anyone brings it up with a straight face.

So chase this bogeyman if you wish, but you will have to search long and hard to find someone to debate it with, and if you do, you will find classical dispensationalists on your side.

[Don Johnson]

And of course no one can find a passage that states any style of music is good or evil, so your comment is irrelevant. We can show that human emotions themselves are part of that which is corrupted by the fall, and from that we can reason that as music expresses or portrays such emotions it will more or less display that depravity. More or less depending on how thoroughly or plainly the corrupted emotions are put on display.

Yes, but Don, that’s germane to the point. How would we differentiate “corrupted” anger from righteous anger in music? Or corrupted desire from the desire we should have for good things? How is the corruption put on display?

Clearly, the object of that desire or hatred would be one way, but that gets back to the misuse of a God-given emotion, so that’s out from your point of view, since you say the corruption goes beyond that. And since we are not discussing words here, we don’t have verbal clues, only the music.

So if we are down to the technical arguments that were given in the post, I would say that the burden of proof is on those who say that the musical elements they are saying are bad are “putting the corruption on display,” and are thus invalid in good music. To do that, it must be shown *how* those musical elements accomplish that, and not just asserted that they do.

On to read the next part that came out today…

I’ve been away for awhile, but I thought I should post something about tabernacle/temple discontinuity issue. The NT describes the Spirit’s indwelling presence not only as a new reality for persons but also an ecclesial reality. There’s both personal indwelling and corporate indwelling. First Corinthians 6:19 describes our bodies as temples, but 1 Cor. 3:16 describes the church as God’s temple. See also 2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:21-22, and 1 Pet 2:5.

I read this some time ago and managed to dig it out:

Here is a testimonial cry from the Russian churches, which should drive any true believer to a painful repentance:

At one stage the persecuted Christians in Russia sent an urgent message to the Churches of America one of the most shocking and rebuking statements ever made in the two thousand year history of Christianity quote:

“For years we (Russian persecuted Christians) have suffered persecution, and now freedom is bringing another great harm to our churches. This damage is coming from the Christians in America who are sending rock music and evangelists accompanied by rock bands.

Our young people do not attend these meetings because we have all committed not to participate in secular entertainment.

This is a great burden on our hearts. Many came (from America) with Bible in hand and rock music. We are embarrassed by this image of Christianity. We do not know what words to use in urging that this be stopped. We abhor all Christian rock music coming to our country.

Rock music has nothing in common with ministry or service to God. We are very, very against Christian Americans bringing to our country this false image of ‘ministry’ to God. We need spiritual bread; please give us bread, not false cakes. It is true that rock music attracts people to the church, but not to godly living.

We were in prison for years for Christ’s sake. We were not allowed to have Christian music, but rock music was used as a weapon against us day and night to destroy our souls. We could only resist with much prayer and fasting.

Now, we have a time of more openness, and we are no longer taken to prison. However, now it is Christians from America who damage our souls. We do not allow this music in our churches, but they rent big stadiums and infect teenagers and others with their rock music.

We, the leadership and congregations of the Unregistered Union of Churches, the former Persecuted Church, have made an agreement no to allow rock music in our churches. We urge you to join with us, and we advise you to remove rock music from America, and certainly not to bring it to our own country.

Do not desecrate our teenagers with it. Even the unbelievers recognize it as unholy music, and they cannot understand how American Christians can be so much like the world. We can give you the conclusion that after Russian unbelievers have attended these rock concerts where Christ’s Word was preached, they were disappointed and disillusioned with Christianity.

We call this music from Hell. We urge all Americans to stop giving money (to send) such concerts to Russia. We want only traditional Christian music in our churches. This is the unanimous decision of all our leaders.”

This statement was signed by leaders of the Underground Church in Russia, and its logic, reasons, and Bible principles are simply unanswerable to rock groups and their supporters. Think of that: poor, humble, suffering Russian Christians are severely rebuking and instructing arrogant, worldly Western Christians.

Does anyone reading all this really believe that Psalm 150 (and the rest of the Psalter for that matter) would have had little influence upon the early Christian church as it gathered for worship?

The church began in Jerusalem and Jews were being saved. How could one possibly think that the musical experience in the Temple and within their cultural context had no influence upon the stylistic expressions of music and worship in these early gatherings?

As the Gospel spread into Gentile cities and new believers gathered to worship the Lord Jesus, from where would the tunes and the stylistic expressions of these local assemblies of believers come?

[dcbii]

[Don Johnson]

And of course no one can find a passage that states any style of music is good or evil, so your comment is irrelevant. We can show that human emotions themselves are part of that which is corrupted by the fall, and from that we can reason that as music expresses or portrays such emotions it will more or less display that depravity. More or less depending on how thoroughly or plainly the corrupted emotions are put on display.

Yes, but Don, that’s germane to the point. How would we differentiate “corrupted” anger from righteous anger in music? Or corrupted desire from the desire we should have for good things? How is the corruption put on display?

Clearly, the object of that desire or hatred would be one way, but that gets back to the misuse of a God-given emotion, so that’s out from your point of view, since you say the corruption goes beyond that. And since we are not discussing words here, we don’t have verbal clues, only the music.

So if we are down to the technical arguments that were given in the post, I would say that the burden of proof is on those who say that the musical elements they are saying are bad are “putting the corruption on display,” and are thus invalid in good music. To do that, it must be shown *how* those musical elements accomplish that, and not just asserted that they do.

On to read the next part that came out today…

I agree with everything you say in this post, Dave. I don’t know the answers to the questions that it raises. I can make guesses, but I am unable to be dogmatic.

Sticking with anger, I can see how human anger can be and is displayed in the tones and instruments of rock music (for want of a better term). I have a hard time thinking of God’s anger being expressed that way, more like some of the thundering pieces of classical music or in the tones like those that accompany a hymn like “A mighty fortress is our God”.

But that is opinion, I recognize that. I can’t give a dogmatic answer at this point personally.

[Dan McGhee] As the Gospel spread into Gentile cities and new believers gathered to worship the Lord Jesus, from where would the tunes and the stylistic expressions of these local assemblies of believers come?

What you suggest is likely enough, but no one knows what form that took in the 1st century synagogue and the early church.

Would you please stop defending yourself for using the term “Gnostic” (last time post 129)? If you want to accuse someone in this discussion of dualistic thinking, you may have a wobbly leg to stand on, but that is all. No one here has been using Gnostic thinking any more than yourself. you are applying what Paul wrote in Colossians about wrong philosophy, to others here in the debate. But you have not once shown any Gnostic thinking in anyone.

People on this website, and especially Don, are much too Bible puritan to fit in with the Gnostics. Or how many Gnostics have you conversed with?

The terms “vile affections,” “base passions,” “evil passions,” or “corrupt emotions,” (which you find to be indicative of Gnosticism) are terms that have been used by Christian writers all the way from the John Chrysostom to John MacArthur. If you want to lead the whole lot of them out of the heretical wilderness, then understand what Gnosticism really is.

This statement was signed by leaders of the Underground Church in Russia, and its logic, reasons, and Bible principles are simply unanswerable to rock groups and their supporters. Think of that: poor, humble, suffering Russian Christians are severely rebuking and instructing arrogant, worldly Western Christians.

You have not made any Biblical arguments that shows that a certain style of music is unblblical. Only appealing to an emotional sentiment from a certain group of fundy Christians in Russia. Heard the same emotional arguments from fundy evangelists back in the 1970’s when they told the story of someone from America who brought their “Christian Rock” music to Africa and played it among African national Christians and the African Christians couldn’t understand why these worldly “American Christians” would play music that sounded like their music they used to listen to when they worshipped spirits……..

I could flip this argument and share an emotional sentiment how our ministry that reaches out to the hip-hop culture in the inner-city has been asked to bring those we have discipled and come and share the gospel and perform evangelistic hip-hop concerts in areas of the world where the genre of hip-hop is very popular, especially among oppressed groups such as young adult Aboriginal peoples in Australia and poor young adult African and Arab immigrants throughout the cities of Europe. We have not done this at this time because those we are discipling are young adult Christians that need to go deeper in their faith before they step out as short-term Cross-cultural missionaries.

Now I don’t doubt some of the arrogance that certain short-term mission groups Christians and the Rock bands they bring might have. When Russia opened up as a mission field in the 1990’s when the iron curtain came down, American Christians often did not take time to listen to Russian Christians to find out what was needed to help the Russian church make disciples.

You really need get off defending yourself for using the term “Gnostic” (last time post 129). If you want to accuse someone in this discussion of dualistic thinking, you may have a wobbly leg to stand on, but that is all. No one here has been using Gnostic thinking any more than yourself.

People on this website, and especially Don, are much too Bible puritan to fit in with the Gnostics. Or how many Gnostics have you conversed with?

The terms “vile affections,” “base passions,” “evil passions,” or “corrupt emotions,” (which you find to be indicative of Gnosticism) are terms that have been used by Christian writers all the way from the John Chrysostom to John MacArthur. If you want to lead the whole lot of them out of the heretical wilderness, first learn the subject well.

Marsilius,

The reason that jcoleman can infer that Don Johnson’s views lean towards dualism and Gnosticism is because of Don’s denial of the goodness of Creation (except for food and marriage) from I Timothy 4:1-5. Orthodox Christians interpret this passage that God created the world and everything in it as good (not just the food and marriage). Everything means Everything. Of course, the fall corrupted all of creation, but Paul still affirms its goodness. Paul calls those that deny God’s goodness in creation as teaching “doctrines of demons”. That’s pretty harsh. Conservative Christian commentators such as the one I mentioned in an earlier post saw this as the forerunner of Gnostic teaching. Also, Dr. Michael Wittmer of Grand Rapids Theological Seminary (who belongs to a fundamentalist GARBC church in Grand Rapids) exposes this modern form of Gnostic teaching that has permeated conservative churches in his book, Heaven is a Place on Earth: Why Everything you do Matters to God.

The irony among certain fundamentalists, in their effort to be Biblical puritans (as you have called it), they start to resemble certain heresy’s from yesteryear even defending this argument that certain chords of music and how long it is held can be wrong (denying the goodness of creation that comes from music).

[Don Johnson]

[Dan McGhee] As the Gospel spread into Gentile cities and new believers gathered to worship the Lord Jesus, from where would the tunes and the stylistic expressions of these local assemblies of believers come?

What you suggest is likely enough, but no one knows what form that took in the 1st century synagogue and the early church.

Don, I’m really not discussing the form because I think that that will be different from context to context depending upon the cultural milieu in which the local assembly is located. However, we can say definitively that certain expressions took place because the are described and prescribed.

We do know for a fact from Psalm 150 that Temple worship in early NT times would have included, but was not limited to:

“praise him with trumpet sound” (3)

“praise him with lute and harp!” (3)

“praise him with strings and pipe!” (4)

“praise him with tamborine and dance” (4)

“praise him with loud clashing cymbals!” (5)

So, in this single text we see that these were some of the Temple expressions of worship, but we don’t know if they were 3/4 beat, 4/4 beat, Waltz, Blue Grass, Rock, Symphony, Patch The Pirate, Negro Spiritual, Russian Dirge, Classical Hymn, etc….

I know this is probably just a guess on my part, but I would surmise that the music was probably expressed with a distinctly Jewish flavor (which happens to have some really cool, funky rhythms to it). How else does one dance with a tamborine? :-)

Finally, it seems to me in my simple way of looking at this matter, that these expressions would have carried over into the NT gatherings of the early church. How couldn’t this be the case?

[Dan McGhee]

We do know for a fact from Psalm 150 that Temple worship in early NT times would have included, but was not limited to:

“praise him with trumpet sound” (3)

“praise him with lute and harp!” (3) … etc. …

The scholars I have read on this subject say that the worship of the early church was modeled off the synagogue, not the Temple.

My impression is that synagogue worship was quite different from that of the Temple.

I appreciate you actually trying to deal with the text of Ps 150, but more work needs to be done to demonstrate that this actually became a model for the church.

[Joel Shaffer]

Marsilius,

The reason that jcoleman can infer that Don Johnson’s views lean towards dualism and Gnosticism is because of Don’s denial of the goodness of Creation (except for food and marriage) from I Timothy 4:1-5. Orthodox Christians interpret this passage that God created the world and everything in it as good (not just the food and marriage). Everything means Everything. Of course, the fall corrupted all of creation, but Paul still affirms its goodness. Paul calls those that deny God’s goodness in creation as teaching “doctrines of demons”.

Joel,

I don’t think this holds up. You would say language is good but can be used improperly, sinfully even. Don would say music is good but can be used improperly, sinfully even. Hardly gnostic.

[Don Johnson]

[Dan McGhee]

We do know for a fact from Psalm 150 that Temple worship in early NT times would have included, but was not limited to:

“praise him with trumpet sound” (3)

“praise him with lute and harp!” (3) … etc. …

The scholars I have read on this subject say that the worship of the early church was modeled off the synagogue, not the Temple.

My impression is that synagogue worship was quite different from that of the Temple.

I appreciate you actually trying to deal with the text of Ps 150, but more work needs to be done to demonstrate that this actually became a model for the church.