"It's a business, it's a ministry, it's both"
[Susan R] If a full-time (as in non-bi-vocational) pastor candidates for a church, and they cannot support him financially, and he decides since they can’t pay him, he can’t pastor that church, hasn’t he just by default set a ‘charge’ for his services? He’s not wearing a price tag, but he does have a price, doesn’t he?Your scenario is a bit hard to follow seeing a full-time Pastor would candidate at a church that did not, before his candidacy, discuss their capacity for support but…ignoring that and looking at the core of what is being proposed, i.e. the fundamental issue you are identifying, since I have “Caturday” duties, please allow me time to attend to them and give a response later this weekend. In the mean time I suspect others may.
Just a completely off-the-top-of-my-pointy-head semi-off-topic question.
Alex
[Alex Guggenheim][Susan R] If a full-time (as in non-bi-vocational) pastor candidates for a church, and they cannot support him financially, and he decides since they can’t pay him, he can’t pastor that church, hasn’t he just by default set a ‘charge’ for his services? He’s not wearing a price tag, but he does have a price, doesn’t he?Your scenario is a bit hard to follow seeing a full-time Pastor would candidate at a church that did not, before his candidacy, discuss their capacity for support but…ignoring that and looking at the core of what is being proposed, i.e. the fundamental issue you are identifying, since I have “Caturday” duties, please allow me time to attend to them and give a response later this weekend. In the mean time I suspect others may.
Just a completely off-the-top-of-my-pointy-head semi-off-topic question.
Alex
what I posted was sort of like a brain burp, but I was thinking along the lines of expectation of reciprocation, instead of a printed price list or an up front fee. It just seems to me that all who minister ‘count the cost’ and would not get involved in a ministry that could not support them financially, or that would interfere in their ability to provide for their family. So in a sort of philosophical sense, we do attach fees to our labors, even those we do for the Gospel’s sake.
But I’m getting carried away a bit… I’m posting under the influence of a lovely strawberry strudel. I don’t want to derail the thread too far from the business/ministry methods of Dave Ramsey. I just think we need to make sure we know what ‘ministry’ means, and not attach strings to it that Biblically might not exist.
As we trim the hairs on the fly’s nose to determine the semantic distinctions between business and ministry…
- are we talking about legal (IRS) definitions or theological definitions?
- for the sake of this discussion, which one of the above is primary and informs the other?
- are we going to consistently apply our conclusion (i.e., canceling all subscriptions, services, enrollments and connections to non-ministry business for which the church or its members may currently pay)?
One other question — if the church covered the entire cost of FPU for anyone who wanted to take the class under its roof, would that then sanctify the process and make it a legitimate ministry (as far as the church itself is concerned)?
Perhaps a more constructive discussion would focus on this rhetorical question: Is a local church obligated to provide FPU for its members at no cost in light of the demonstrable need for such a course in this economic climate?
- are we talking about legal (IRS) definitions or theological definitions?
- for the sake of this discussion, which one of the above is primary and informs the other?
- are we going to consistently apply our conclusion (i.e., canceling all subscriptions, services, enrollments and connections to non-ministry business for which the church or its members may currently pay)?
One other question — if the church covered the entire cost of FPU for anyone who wanted to take the class under its roof, would that then sanctify the process and make it a legitimate ministry (as far as the church itself is concerned)?
Perhaps a more constructive discussion would focus on this rhetorical question: Is a local church obligated to provide FPU for its members at no cost in light of the demonstrable need for such a course in this economic climate?
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Paul J. Scharf] As we trim the hairs on the fly’s nose to determine the semantic distinctions between business and ministry…For the Christian, apart from a tax context, I suspect that the theological definition is paramount in such matters. I will say, though you are being a bit facetious, I don’t believe it is a matter of hair splitting in seeking definitions and uses of terms, particularly seeing the divine rage our Lord displayed toward men who did NOT know the difference and made his Father’s house one of merchandise.
- are we talking about legal (IRS) definitions or theological definitions?
I too agree that there are some important distinctions to be made. I do not think that the Sunday morning sermon should rotate among the various business men and women of the community to make their various sales pitches.
However, I think some may be taking the question posed by the headline of this news article to a bit of an extreme — beyond the scrutiny it deserves and beyond how one could reasonably and consistently apply it to all sorts of other “vendors” who intersect with the ministry of the church.
For instance, does everyone know that some “ministries” are legally conducted as for-profit businesses as they, for whatever reason, have not sought non-profit status? Furthermore, does everyone realize that among non-profit tax-exempt corporations some are regarded by the IRS as “integral agencies of a church” and some are not? A pastor who is employed by the latter, for instance (including some mission boards), may not be able to take advantage of his Social Security exemption, even if he has been approved for that exemption by the government.
I definitely agree that in the context of the local church it is most helpful to focus on the spiritual/theological side of the equation, except as necessary.
The scrutiny given to Ramsey here, a cynic might say, could be born out of disagreement with his message…
However, I think some may be taking the question posed by the headline of this news article to a bit of an extreme — beyond the scrutiny it deserves and beyond how one could reasonably and consistently apply it to all sorts of other “vendors” who intersect with the ministry of the church.
For instance, does everyone know that some “ministries” are legally conducted as for-profit businesses as they, for whatever reason, have not sought non-profit status? Furthermore, does everyone realize that among non-profit tax-exempt corporations some are regarded by the IRS as “integral agencies of a church” and some are not? A pastor who is employed by the latter, for instance (including some mission boards), may not be able to take advantage of his Social Security exemption, even if he has been approved for that exemption by the government.
I definitely agree that in the context of the local church it is most helpful to focus on the spiritual/theological side of the equation, except as necessary.
The scrutiny given to Ramsey here, a cynic might say, could be born out of disagreement with his message…
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Jonathan Charles] I was listening to Crown Financial Ministries radio program today and one of the speakers mentioned the cross of Christ. That made me wonder: How cross-centered is Dave Ramsey? Does he explain that debt and materialism and discontent points to the fundamental problem of not being satisfied with Christ and with not being crucified with Him to the world? To tell you the truth, I don’t know because I have never read Ramsey’s material. But if the cross and Christ are not pervasive in his teaching then he is simply encouraging people to replace one idol with another, to replace the worship of things purchased by debt with the worship of a growing savings account and mutual fund and net worth. I don’t see how the cross and Christ could be pervasive in his work and yet be able to maintain the wide following he has. Even conservative Fox channel would probably kick his show off if he counseled a caller that his core need was to be satisifed in all the Jesus is and has done for us and to, by faith in Him, be crucified with Him in order to be set free from the love of the world. I don’t think Ramsey has any altenative than to take this approach when dealing with people. If he does not then is his organization really a ministry? He might relate finances to Biblical principles, but if these Biblical principles are not related to being satisfied with Christ and with dying with Him then isn’t he stopping short of saying all that a Christian MUST SAY about why we should not be ensalved to money and material things. Perhaps he says these things when he is among Christians and speaking to Christians but is more guarded when he is on television (Fox), but as a ministry can he take two approaches?I think I alluded to this earlier, Norm, but I would say you’ve got a good idea of what’s going on. No, his program is not cross-centered. He does give his own testimony at the end of the 13-weeks, and I do think he hopes people will come to Christ through churches using his program. However, as I warned earlier, this program can open the door to a very covetous line of thinking. We might argue about how “cross-centered” financial advice needs to be (did you ask your mortgage broker or bank teller if they were Christian?), but you have correctly identified a weakness of financial advice that is patently “Christian.” However, I would also add that Ramsey is a financial adviser who happens to be a Christian; I don’t know that he makes any claim to a special form of Christian financial counseling - usually that is added by well-meaning fans.
His principles are great. But when your church members are out of debt, there is just as much spiritual heart work that remains to be done.
FPU is a practical tool that can help people avoid a world of misery, but it works just as well for Christians as it does for non-Christians. I’m glad that some like Dave has put together an attractive package of sound financial wisdom that not coincidentally accords with biblical financial wisdom. But that is as far as it goes. There are just some things that can only be accomplished in the context of a cross-centered, God-focused local church. (And I don’t mean the building - if it’s going to be sitting empty with the A/C running, you might as well host FPU. :) )
Faith is obeying when you can't even imagine how things might turn out right.
A. Carpenter,
I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dave Ramsey, and can not fully concur with your conclusion. God will judge whether he is “cross-centered” enough. I will judge him by his stated purposes, according to the context of his own teaching and within the various contexts in which he presents (church groups, national radio and TV, books, Web site, etc.).
Sadly, I would have to say that I have not personally seen the kinds of results you describe — in financial or other areas — take place very often as a product of the local church. I desperately want to help build “a a cross-centered, God-focused local church.” Sadly, however, the church age may be entering its final end-time apostasy. Dave Ramsey’s teaching, at least right now for me, is a wonderful exception and a motivating force in my Christian life.
I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dave Ramsey, and can not fully concur with your conclusion. God will judge whether he is “cross-centered” enough. I will judge him by his stated purposes, according to the context of his own teaching and within the various contexts in which he presents (church groups, national radio and TV, books, Web site, etc.).
Sadly, I would have to say that I have not personally seen the kinds of results you describe — in financial or other areas — take place very often as a product of the local church. I desperately want to help build “a a cross-centered, God-focused local church.” Sadly, however, the church age may be entering its final end-time apostasy. Dave Ramsey’s teaching, at least right now for me, is a wonderful exception and a motivating force in my Christian life.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Paul J. Scharf] A. Carpenter,Paul, let me clarify a bit. I was referring primarily to his 13-week program - the one hosted by churches - Financial Peace University. As far as FPU is concerned, I stand by what I said. You mentioned “hundreds of hours,” by which I take you to mean his radio broadcast. I cannot comment on that, as I have listened to very little of his program (ah, I did say “program,” didn’t I?). However, from the little I have heard more recently, there seems to be more of a “cross-centering” going on in the radio broadcast than in the FPU presentations. This is a good sign, IMO.
I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dave Ramsey, and can not fully concur with your conclusion. God will judge whether he is “cross-centered” enough. I will judge him by his stated purposes, according to the context of his own teaching and within the various contexts in which he presents (church groups, national radio and TV, books, Web site, etc.).
Sadly, I would have to say that I have not personally seen the kinds of results you describe — in financial or other areas — take place very often as a product of the local church. I desperately want to help build “a a cross-centered, God-focused local church.” Sadly, however, the church age may be entering its final end-time apostasy. Dave Ramsey’s teaching, at least right now for me, is a wonderful exception and a motivating force in my Christian life.
Faith is obeying when you can't even imagine how things might turn out right.
I guess for me it is all about context — and what you want to learn and listen to.
Ramsey’s radio program reaches a national, secular audience. There would be nothing wrong with that for him as a Christian, even if his purpose were not to teach Biblical values. But, in fact, that is his purpose, so there is really nothing wrong with that!
If I want to hear a sermon or Bible teaching on the radio, there are plenty of good options out there, and Ramsey is not one of them. If you want to read a Bible commentary, Ramsey’s books do not qualify.
He is cross-centered, even in the secular world, to the extent that he publicly mentions Christ and the gospel and tells people to trust in God as their provider.
I guess Ramsey’s distinctiveness is why I have come to benefit much more from him than from Crown. As Crown’s radio program exists currently, they will often give you a half hour on contentment, or trusting God as your source, etc., but you leave having listened to a slightly-financial sermon.
Ramsey tells you how to get out of debt, and answers myriads of questions about real-life situations, all while motivating you like a football coach. There is no one else quite like him who comes from the same perspective. I am not sure that I would want him to quit doing that to bone up on his preaching style and give radio sermons.
Also, as one myself who works in both the Christian world and the secular world, I understand that context is king not only in Bible interpretation, but in many situations in life. If Ramsey became too “cross-centered” on the Fox Business Network, they probably would drop him — not necessarily because they hate the cross, but because that is not what he is there for. I see no contradiction there whatsoever.
Ramsey’s radio program reaches a national, secular audience. There would be nothing wrong with that for him as a Christian, even if his purpose were not to teach Biblical values. But, in fact, that is his purpose, so there is really nothing wrong with that!
If I want to hear a sermon or Bible teaching on the radio, there are plenty of good options out there, and Ramsey is not one of them. If you want to read a Bible commentary, Ramsey’s books do not qualify.
He is cross-centered, even in the secular world, to the extent that he publicly mentions Christ and the gospel and tells people to trust in God as their provider.
I guess Ramsey’s distinctiveness is why I have come to benefit much more from him than from Crown. As Crown’s radio program exists currently, they will often give you a half hour on contentment, or trusting God as your source, etc., but you leave having listened to a slightly-financial sermon.
Ramsey tells you how to get out of debt, and answers myriads of questions about real-life situations, all while motivating you like a football coach. There is no one else quite like him who comes from the same perspective. I am not sure that I would want him to quit doing that to bone up on his preaching style and give radio sermons.
Also, as one myself who works in both the Christian world and the secular world, I understand that context is king not only in Bible interpretation, but in many situations in life. If Ramsey became too “cross-centered” on the Fox Business Network, they probably would drop him — not necessarily because they hate the cross, but because that is not what he is there for. I see no contradiction there whatsoever.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
Tithes and offerings?
Price tags and marketing?
Price tags and marketing?
Discussion