"It's a business, it's a ministry, it's both"
I can’t imagine what Dave Ramsey is saying that a pastor can’t himself preach from the Bible. I recently took a member to a nearby town that has an office of a non-profit, free credit counseling service. He go to sit down one-on-one with an advisor and was tremendously helped as a result.
You can count me as a product of FPU, and I recommend it…with one caveat (or maybe a few more). Dave teaches some great principles, and we have enjoyed the blessing of living debt free. He is an excellent communicator, a good teacher. However, he capitalizes on the basic human lust to have more - often known as covetousness. Sound harsh? I don’t think so. He offers as a strong motivation the possibility of being rich and all the things one can do with his money. And while 10% charitable giving is part of his basic budget (for which I applaud him!), anything beyond that seems to get just token mention. Of course, he is a financial adviser, not a pastor or theologian, but I always felt a little uncomfortable with the allure he allowed materialism to present. He says, “Debt is dumb;” what he pretty much neglects is that debt is often sinful (or the result of sinful choices, if you prefer). Also, like you might expect, his use of Scripture seems to include quite a bit of proof-texting, and translations abound. Like I said, he’s not a pastor or theologian, but if his material is to be used in churches, I think congregations ought to at least be warned about this. No one needs any encouragement to buy a new bass boat.
Still, his financial management skills he teaches are great, and he communicates them well. Many Christians would be well served to learn what he teaches. And, in light of what I’ve already said, if you allowed Randy Alcorn’s The Treasure Principle to inform Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace,, you’d have a great program!
Still, his financial management skills he teaches are great, and he communicates them well. Many Christians would be well served to learn what he teaches. And, in light of what I’ve already said, if you allowed Randy Alcorn’s The Treasure Principle to inform Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace,, you’d have a great program!
Faith is obeying when you can't even imagine how things might turn out right.
[Jonathan Charles] I can’t imagine what Dave Ramsey is saying that a pastor can’t himself preach from the Bible. I recently took a member to a nearby town that has an office of a non-profit, free credit counseling service. He go to sit down one-on-one with an advisor and was tremendously helped as a result.There are many things that Dave teaches that really wouldn’t have much place in a preaching/worship service, and as a pastor, I don’t want to put myself in the position of offering much financial advice to the church beyond what is actually Scriptural, such as mutual funds, term life insurance, entrepreneurship, etc. Dave also is a very compelling speaker, which aids the instruction. The course takes place over 13 weeks, which helps to build habitual thinking. Also, many people benefit from the accountability that is built into the small group format.
Faith is obeying when you can't even imagine how things might turn out right.
I give hearty thanks for Dave Ramsey’s wise counsel. No, he is not a theologian, but we could all wish that more churches and ministries would follow his Biblical advice. I have immersed myself in his books, CDs and radio and TV programs for the past year, and have benefited tremendously from it. My wife and I are now beginning “The Total Money Makeover.” This is after I had listened to Crown Financial Ministries faithfully for around 10 years. I also appreciate their work very much, but I did not gain the knowledge base or motivation from them that I have received from Ramsey. With Dave’s voice coming through my earphones, I can work late into the night — “living like no one else.” I would encourage the skeptics to give him a try. (Oh that I had been given this information in college!!)
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
So, that thing is that when some folks call in to the show and they are hurting, he points them to their Church, pastor, etc. He helps them, hooks them up with counseling (financial-wise) puts them through the course for free. He also pulls no punches when people have misbehaved with their money. Someone wants to go to the mission field, seminary, etc, he tells them to do it debt free, and stay out. I’m trying to do two things at once and this isn’t making much sense right now
From the story…
“It’s not a ministry. To me, it’s an insult to the word,” said Hoffman, who lives near Logan, Kan. “It would be nice if it got out of the churches and got into the mainstream.”
This is a silly comment to include in the story. You can’t get more mainstream than Ramsey, who is among the top ten radio talkshows in the country. The tone of the piece seemed condescending to me — grasping for a way to make Ramsey out to be a hypocrite. It is symbolic of the covetousness-based class warfare which is at the heart of liberalism, which dominates so much of the national media. (One reason people are turning it off in droves.)
From Jonathan…
“I can’t imagine what Dave Ramsey is saying that a pastor can’t himself preach from the Bible. I recently took a member to a nearby town that has an office of a non-profit, free credit counseling service. He go to sit down one-on-one with an advisor and was tremendously helped as a result.”
That is precisely the point. Pastors are not preaching this stuff. Many of them do not know it themselves, and a large percentage of them — as well as a large percentage of churches — are in financial bondage of their own. Also, please be very careful with the free counselor. Some of them may promote scams, and the best ones have holes in their approach — and are very likely not offering Biblical counsel.
“It’s not a ministry. To me, it’s an insult to the word,” said Hoffman, who lives near Logan, Kan. “It would be nice if it got out of the churches and got into the mainstream.”
This is a silly comment to include in the story. You can’t get more mainstream than Ramsey, who is among the top ten radio talkshows in the country. The tone of the piece seemed condescending to me — grasping for a way to make Ramsey out to be a hypocrite. It is symbolic of the covetousness-based class warfare which is at the heart of liberalism, which dominates so much of the national media. (One reason people are turning it off in droves.)
From Jonathan…
“I can’t imagine what Dave Ramsey is saying that a pastor can’t himself preach from the Bible. I recently took a member to a nearby town that has an office of a non-profit, free credit counseling service. He go to sit down one-on-one with an advisor and was tremendously helped as a result.”
That is precisely the point. Pastors are not preaching this stuff. Many of them do not know it themselves, and a large percentage of them — as well as a large percentage of churches — are in financial bondage of their own. Also, please be very careful with the free counselor. Some of them may promote scams, and the best ones have holes in their approach — and are very likely not offering Biblical counsel.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
“It’s not a ministry. To me, it’s an insult to the word,” said Hoffman, who lives near Logan, Kan. “It would be nice if it got out of the churches and got into the mainstream.”I don’t think that’s what he’s saying- it’s more that Ramsey has his feet in both arenas (church and mainstream), where Hoffman’s point would be that he should not promote what he does as a “(gospel) ministry” if all he is doing is touting the same things in churches that he does in his more “mainstream” venues. I don’t see him accusing Ramsey of being a hypocrite- only that if he is going to be a businessman, to do so outside of the church, like other Christians who conduct their livelihoods generally do.
This is a silly comment to include in the story. You can’t get more mainstream than Ramsey, who is among the top ten radio talkshows in the country. The tone of the piece seemed condescending to me — grasping for a way to make Ramsey out to be a hypocrite. It is symbolic of the covetousness-based class warfare which is at the heart of liberalism, which dominates so much of the national media. (One reason people are turning it off in droves.)
I’m somewhat torn here. I can see where Ramsey’s principles are helpful- we have read some of his materials and listened to some others. He’s got a lot of things that are very helpful. That being said, I’m not convinced that what he does qualifies as part of the “teaching” ministry of the church, strictly speaking. The Bible obviously speaks to these things. It also touches on other areas of life that I’m not sure are worthy of extended seminars in a church setting- say, employer/employee (master/servant) relationships, or Christian’s responsibility to governing authorities (topics which actually are touched on more specifically than managing finances, especially in the NT). That’s not to say such things have no place in church life at all. For that matter, I have learned many new things myself over the last year in church life in varied areas- gardening, hunting, golf, shingling a roof… all in the course of “real ministry.” I wouldn’t say that we need extended teaching on those things, though- especially at the expense of expositional Bible teaching.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Dear Greg,
There is no need to be torn!!
First, Ramsey does not promote his work as the gospel ministry or the teaching ministry of the church. He only claims to be in the “ministry,” to my knowledge, to the extent that he believes he is in God’s will and serving others.
Second, for the sake of argument I will concede your point about finances being dealt with less specifically than these other topics in the NT. Even if that is true, how many people do you know whose lives and marriages are being destroyed at present by poor “employer/employee (master/servant) relationships, or Christian’s responsibility to governing authorities,” or, conversely, how many people would you draw in to a weekend seminar in your church to discuss these topics? I would venture to say that the answer to either question would be very few — at least compared to how many are touched in the area of finances.
Ramsey is offering neither a gimmick nor an alternative to expositional Bible teaching — he constantly plugs church involvement, preachers and Christian books (most of them good :)). What he is offering is solid, practical, usable information and inspiration to a culture which has lost both its mind and its soul in the realm of finances. The proof is in the pudding — he has whole industries screaming mad at him who would take him down in a heartbeat if they could, and he has millions of people listening to him who would turn the dial if the quality of his work dropped off.
If he is not “churchly” enough for you, then just promote the “mainstream Dave” and listen to him instead of Rush! For my part, if I were a pastor at this time, I would love to make FPU a very vibrant part of the church’s outreach and teaching ministry.
There is no need to be torn!!
First, Ramsey does not promote his work as the gospel ministry or the teaching ministry of the church. He only claims to be in the “ministry,” to my knowledge, to the extent that he believes he is in God’s will and serving others.
Second, for the sake of argument I will concede your point about finances being dealt with less specifically than these other topics in the NT. Even if that is true, how many people do you know whose lives and marriages are being destroyed at present by poor “employer/employee (master/servant) relationships, or Christian’s responsibility to governing authorities,” or, conversely, how many people would you draw in to a weekend seminar in your church to discuss these topics? I would venture to say that the answer to either question would be very few — at least compared to how many are touched in the area of finances.
Ramsey is offering neither a gimmick nor an alternative to expositional Bible teaching — he constantly plugs church involvement, preachers and Christian books (most of them good :)). What he is offering is solid, practical, usable information and inspiration to a culture which has lost both its mind and its soul in the realm of finances. The proof is in the pudding — he has whole industries screaming mad at him who would take him down in a heartbeat if they could, and he has millions of people listening to him who would turn the dial if the quality of his work dropped off.
If he is not “churchly” enough for you, then just promote the “mainstream Dave” and listen to him instead of Rush! For my part, if I were a pastor at this time, I would love to make FPU a very vibrant part of the church’s outreach and teaching ministry.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
Dave Ramsey charges for his teaching, that is a business.
From Paul: Also, please be very careful with the free counselor. Some of them may promote scams, and the best ones have holes in their approach — and are very likely not offering Biblical counsel.
This member of mine got hooked up with a credit counseling service from Florida. I was suspicious. I looked around locally and found that in central Pennsylvania that we have a network of free credit counselors-they are partially funded by the state of Pennsylvania and are non-proft. I would highly recommend these kind of organiziations. Most areas of the country, especially larger cities, are likely to have them. But, do your homework. This one was entirely legit.
I haven’t read or used any of Dave Ramsey’s material. I am uncomfortable about him using the open doors of local churches to make a fortune, yet I certainly do not think it is wrong for a Christian to have wealth. I hope that as much as Ramsey emphasizes getting out of debt, that he also emphasizes liberal generosity once a believer is on a solid financial footing. If a man makes a million dollars a year it is a shame for him to spend 9/10 of that on himself. He should probably live on 1/10 and give the rest away.
This member of mine got hooked up with a credit counseling service from Florida. I was suspicious. I looked around locally and found that in central Pennsylvania that we have a network of free credit counselors-they are partially funded by the state of Pennsylvania and are non-proft. I would highly recommend these kind of organiziations. Most areas of the country, especially larger cities, are likely to have them. But, do your homework. This one was entirely legit.
I haven’t read or used any of Dave Ramsey’s material. I am uncomfortable about him using the open doors of local churches to make a fortune, yet I certainly do not think it is wrong for a Christian to have wealth. I hope that as much as Ramsey emphasizes getting out of debt, that he also emphasizes liberal generosity once a believer is on a solid financial footing. If a man makes a million dollars a year it is a shame for him to spend 9/10 of that on himself. He should probably live on 1/10 and give the rest away.
For what it’s worth, and I know there are 2 sides to every story, but this came from Wikipedia:
Ramsey has been criticized in financial circles for offering overly simplistic solutions to financial issues.[10]
The Nashville Scene has reported that Ramsey occasionally receives e-mails and letters containing the Biblical verse: “And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24 KJV) Ramsey interprets such communications to be a rebuke of his own wealth and a call for poverty.[2]
In 2004, Ramsey’s column was dropped from The Tennessean and four other newspapers owned by Gannett, Co. after it was discovered that the identities of those seeking help were falsified in several of his columns. A Lampo executive vice president attributed the duplications to a young former employee who was in charge of selecting and editing the column questions and answers, and said the employee has since left the company. Despite claiming to not have made the mistake himself, Ramsey accepted overall responsibility, offering refunds to the newspapers affected by the error.[11]
Wall Street Journal best-selling author and nationally syndicated columnist Eric Tyson criticizes Ramsey for referring listeners to endorsed, commission-based brokers (who pay fees back to Ramsey) instead of fee-based advisors; and for advocating portfolios containing only stocks instead of portfolios balanced with bonds. Tyson also cites Ramsey’s exaggeration of expected stock market returns, his focus on high-risk growth funds instead of safer index and life-cycle funds, and his failure to state the importance of investment expenses.[12]
Ramsey has been criticized in financial circles for offering overly simplistic solutions to financial issues.[10]
The Nashville Scene has reported that Ramsey occasionally receives e-mails and letters containing the Biblical verse: “And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24 KJV) Ramsey interprets such communications to be a rebuke of his own wealth and a call for poverty.[2]
In 2004, Ramsey’s column was dropped from The Tennessean and four other newspapers owned by Gannett, Co. after it was discovered that the identities of those seeking help were falsified in several of his columns. A Lampo executive vice president attributed the duplications to a young former employee who was in charge of selecting and editing the column questions and answers, and said the employee has since left the company. Despite claiming to not have made the mistake himself, Ramsey accepted overall responsibility, offering refunds to the newspapers affected by the error.[11]
Wall Street Journal best-selling author and nationally syndicated columnist Eric Tyson criticizes Ramsey for referring listeners to endorsed, commission-based brokers (who pay fees back to Ramsey) instead of fee-based advisors; and for advocating portfolios containing only stocks instead of portfolios balanced with bonds. Tyson also cites Ramsey’s exaggeration of expected stock market returns, his focus on high-risk growth funds instead of safer index and life-cycle funds, and his failure to state the importance of investment expenses.[12]
Jonathan,
I am not sure that quoting Wikipedia is helpful here. Saying that “Ramsey has been criticized in financial circles” is like trying to diminish Rush’s credibility by saying he is hated by the liberal left.
As I said before, you could find whole industries screaming mad at Ramsey who would take him down in a heartbeat if they could, yet he has millions of people listening to him who would turn the dial if his advice was not up to snuff.
Ramsey’s policies for his “endorsed local providers” are listed here: www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/index.cfm?intContentId=8650
Ramsey also indeed emphasizes “giving like no one else.”
I am not sure that quoting Wikipedia is helpful here. Saying that “Ramsey has been criticized in financial circles” is like trying to diminish Rush’s credibility by saying he is hated by the liberal left.
As I said before, you could find whole industries screaming mad at Ramsey who would take him down in a heartbeat if they could, yet he has millions of people listening to him who would turn the dial if his advice was not up to snuff.
Ramsey’s policies for his “endorsed local providers” are listed here: www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/index.cfm?intContentId=8650
Ramsey also indeed emphasizes “giving like no one else.”
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
For $250 I’ll send you a video and yard signs advertising that I will be doing a 13 week series in your church. There is one catch they will have to pay upfront to hear it.
Does not sound like a “Ministry” to me. Sounds like a business with the Bible sprinkled in.
Does not sound like a “Ministry” to me. Sounds like a business with the Bible sprinkled in.
Pastor Harold,
Go for it!
Let us know the results.
Go for it!
Let us know the results.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
My kids are doing Ramsey’s Foundations in Personal Finance course this year for school. I appreciate his straightforward and Bible-based approach to stewardship and finances. I haven’t read or heard every jot and tittle of what Ramsey has to say, but I don’t discount any person’s entire body of work because of some differences of opinion or even some errors, as long as those errors aren’t on what I would consider to be foundational issues, such as being honest when filing taxes, tithes and offerings, etc…
As for whether or not he is in ‘the ministry’, I’d say that what he does ministers to folks, but I think he is primarily a business. And I don’t have a problem with a Christian making money doing something they are qualified or skilled in doing. I also think it is bizarre to suggest that someone keep their business and Christianity separate- that “intermingling of faith and finances was some sort of unholy alliance”. How we think about money is a very important part of our Christian walk- separate faith and finances? I don’t believe that, for a Christian, ANY activity is ‘secular’- everything we say or do should be guided by Biblical principles at their very foundation.
Also, the idea of making the church building some kind of sacred place where the only legitimate function is for services doesn’t make sense to me. I like it that our church allows the members to use the building for all kinds of things- why not have it as a sort of hub of fellowship and to provide a place for people to learn from each other? It isn’t as if people are turning the church into a bowling alley or Walmart by paying a financial counselor to teach the folks about money.
As for whether or not he is in ‘the ministry’, I’d say that what he does ministers to folks, but I think he is primarily a business. And I don’t have a problem with a Christian making money doing something they are qualified or skilled in doing. I also think it is bizarre to suggest that someone keep their business and Christianity separate- that “intermingling of faith and finances was some sort of unholy alliance”. How we think about money is a very important part of our Christian walk- separate faith and finances? I don’t believe that, for a Christian, ANY activity is ‘secular’- everything we say or do should be guided by Biblical principles at their very foundation.
Also, the idea of making the church building some kind of sacred place where the only legitimate function is for services doesn’t make sense to me. I like it that our church allows the members to use the building for all kinds of things- why not have it as a sort of hub of fellowship and to provide a place for people to learn from each other? It isn’t as if people are turning the church into a bowling alley or Walmart by paying a financial counselor to teach the folks about money.
Discussion