Dan Phillips: "What verse in the Bible talks about a pastor's 'call'?"

it seems like a reach to argue that it can be used to justify something like a quasi-mystic ‘call’ to ministry.

Actually, I’m on the other side of that debate. #14 and #27 probably help show where I’m coming from. Basically, my argument was that pastoral call is part of the idea of vocation. Don argued pretty much that the whole idea of vocation isn’t biblical. I mentioned 1Cor.7 in passing merely as an example of “call” used in a non-pastoral sense.

But, as I mentioned in my last post, the idea of vocation is really nothing more than necessary inferences from other ideas: God makes each of us by design with a sovereign plan that includes the work we are here to do. I don’t believe that serving as a pastor requires a different selection process by God or different kind of relationship to God’s will than that of any other vocation… or that this work is ultimately “higher.”

I do believe there is a different selection process on the human side—because a congregation issues a call and uses qualifications to do so.

(Seems like we had a thread like this once before in which we heard a bit from Charlie on the Presbyterian idea of the call. As I recall, there is no ‘call’ in their view until a congregation says we call you.)

[Aaron Blumer]

But, as I mentioned in my last post, the idea of vocation is really nothing more than necessary inferences from other ideas: God makes each of us by design with a sovereign plan that includes the work we are here to do. I don’t believe that serving as a pastor requires a different selection process by God or different kind of relationship to God’s will than that of any other vocation… or that this work is ultimately “higher.”

Well, here we just differ. I think it is certainly possible that God could design our lives with a sovereign plan as you say, and I certainly believe that God is able to do so. I just don’t think that he does. I see no Bible for that.

There are many things we are called to Biblically speaking, but I agree that there isn’t any convincing support for a supernatural ‘calling’ of pastor, evangelist, deacon, etc… There are spiritual gifts, and there are qualifications, there is the guidance of the Holy Spirit- but even so, what does Scripture say the Holy Spirit guides us to? Does He guide us to Detroit, or Poughkeepsie, or Bangladesh? No- He guides us to truth. The truth of Scripture.

We have been given a mind that is capable of reason, as well as a supernatural book jam-packed with spiritual knowledge and wisdom. I think God expects us to use our brains and not depend on goosebumps for decision making.

So whether you are a pastor or a plumber, your work is necessary, and it is noble, as long as it is done to the glory of God.

[Don Johnson]

[Aaron Blumer]

But, as I mentioned in my last post, the idea of vocation is really nothing more than necessary inferences from other ideas: God makes each of us by design with a sovereign plan that includes the work we are here to do. I don’t believe that serving as a pastor requires a different selection process by God or different kind of relationship to God’s will than that of any other vocation… or that this work is ultimately “higher.”

Well, here we just differ. I think it is certainly possible that God could design our lives with a sovereign plan as you say, and I certainly believe that God is able to do so. I just don’t think that he does. I see no Bible for that.

I am not sure where your question leads other than fatalism and determinism.

dont think that fatalism or determinism are the only two ends at all.

;) fwiw

[Don Johnson]

I am not sure where your question leads other than fatalism and determinism.

I think it is certainly possible that God could design our lives with a sovereign plan as you say, and I certainly believe that God is able to do so. I just don’t think that he does. I see no Bible for that.

I was rather surprised to see this. Some Bible for that.

Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Is 46:9–11)

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (Eph 1:11)

Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. (Ps 139:16)

For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. (Ac 4:27–28)

A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps. (Pr 16:9)

The reason this isn’t fatalistic is that God ordains secondary causes. My choices are part of the plan. There’s a whole lot of room between “direct causation of everything” (which is puppetry) and “God has planned everything” (which is sovereignty).

Hi Aaron,

Every one of those passages can be understood in a way that does not demand God ordain every single event of every man’s life. It is quite clear that some events God certainly ordains (the crucifixion, for example). But it does not follow that every other event is so ordained.

I see no difference between direct causation of everything and planning everything.

However… we are going a good ways away from the notion of call to the ministry and Dan Phillips.

It’s still pretty close to topic. Because, if …

• God has a plan for every person ‘s life, and
• that plan includes the work he is to do (as unto the Lord, Col.3:23), and
• that work serves the ultimate purpose of God’s glory in just the way God desired

… it follows that no “life’s work” (if “calling” seems to be the wrong word) is truly “higher” (more valued by God) than another and that the work of pastoring is not special in that way … and we should not expect special communication of God’s will to be involved.

To be sure, there are a whole lot of key terms in this debate. But the basic argument that we’re all called to something is a pretty simple one.

As for the passages above regarding the sovereign planning of God. Explaining them away takes more work than I’m interested in doing. But if you believe you can, that might be interesting to see. I believe they speak very well for themselves.

One counterargument I haven’t heard yet:

“But Jesus was called (the language is “sent”) to do the unique work of securing our salvation; isn’t that call ‘higher’ than anyone else’s?” My answer to that would be that even though Jesus is partly in the same class as the rest of us, being human, He also blows the category away by being, at the same time, God. So there are vast differences between the work Christ was sent to do (John 4:34) and the work any of the rest of us are called to do.

In any case, it’s a long way from supporting the idea that the guy who leads and feeds the flock has a higher (or specially communicated) calling than the folks who feed and clothe him.