FBFI: Questions for Matt Olson and Northland International University

We all strive to have the proper biblical relationships, and, corporately, organizations publicly declare their criteria for those relationships; however, every organization has inconsistencies with their public statements. My church has them (IFB), your church has them. My school has them (BJU), your school has them. It is impossible for an organization of any significant size (like more than 2 people) to have 100% consistency with their statements on fellowship and associations.

So why beat the drum on this NIU issue? Because NIU is the flavor of the month when it comes to whipping boys. I have no affiliation with NIU so I have no reason to defend them, but that’s just my observation. There have been recent issues come with this institution, lately, so now it has a target on its back and some folks are scrutinizing every bit of the schools activities. Lot like our political climate today.

I am ok with discussing these issues. That’s why this blog is here; however, those who bring up issues with other organizations also need to be willing and discuss critically those issues with their own “team”.

I think we need to be careful about comparisons. Mr. Olson visited a church with charismatic leanings/associations, there are some students and staff associated with this church, therefore there is some question as to the dedication, consistency and accuracy of his and Northland’s doctrinal stance on cessationism… so now he’s headed down the path of abuser or serial adulterer?

Talk about avoiding the issue…

I agree that if Northland has clearly defined themselves as separatist from any and all charismatic and noncessationist doctrine, then Mr. Olson needs to clarify his and the college’s position on this. But I don’t think he’s going to go out tomorrow and start nailing puppies to garage doors.

As I said before, so say I now again- when are Fundamentalist organizations going to demand that their member churches also be clearly cessationist, and separate from those churches that are not?

Maybe the intent is for Northland to be the ‘example’ and serve as a warning to those who are not dedicated and clearly defined cessationists. The problem is that what is claimed and what is practiced are not consistent, which makes many Fundamentalist churches dishonest as well as doctrinally skewed.

Susan,

I agree but rarely do organizations make sudden and dramatic turns. I find this to be pro-activity. Maybe some do not like its degree of concern but it cannot be dismissed and it must be answered.

I am interested in any answer, if it is given. I suspect at some point it will have to be given.

Was Mr. Olson given an opportunity to answer before these questions were published? Seems like a few threads ago people were having an anaphylactic reaction to the idea of forming and voicing assumptions based solely on the possible appearance of evil, and words like “Phariseeical” and “uncharitable” were being tossed around like confetti. What’s different about this situation… other than the fact that Mr. Olson hasn’t done anything immoral or illegal.

And to further repeat myself- shouldn’t we consider the idea that our own doctrinal tolerance and ambiguity about cessationism, in the form of the aforementioned “God told me” nonsense, has contributed if not caused some of this confusion about apostolic gifts?

Goose-gander, KWIM?

Alex, how do you go from Olson to Hyles/Schaap? No one is saying Olson shouldn’t talk about the issue. He has issued a statement once already recently about NIU.

As for Mahaney, I haven’t figured out why anyone listens to that guy for anything. He writes a book about humility yet has the arrogance to go start his own religious movement and call themselves apostles. I am not sure how he is a heretic though, maybe explain that part. Bad theology yes, heretic though? I would be interested to see your rationale for that.

Olson cannot simply unilaterally change the school. He isn’t alone on this. If they have rethought the application of how separation should play out, and that includes redrawing the lines, then it does not necessarily mean a withdrawal of fundamentalism. As you know, fundamentalism was always bigger than IFB.

For the 4 of you who are interested - I reworked post #27 during a commercial - enjoying college football this morning.

Straight Ahead!

jt

I’m not really trying to follow this discussion (I no longer have time for the messy ones!).

But I scanned enough to see if anyone had posted this link. Doesn’t appear so. It’s an old post by Challies (‘06) about a SGM conference.

It’s a nice, thought, calm​ (boy do I love those rare gems) report exploring how SGM views the role of gifts it believes continue (the ones cessationists like myself believe do not continue in any normal sense) today…. and how they show up in worship.

It can help put some things in perspective. SGM is not mainstream “Charismatic Movement” but is also not in the “non-cessationist as a mere abstraction” group either. They are fairly serious about making sure the gifts they believe continue actually have what they see as a continuing presence—though use of tongues is interestingly rare.

http://www.challies.com/liveblogging/worshipgod06-reflections

Olson makes a complimentary comment on his blog about a Bible church that includes NIU alumni, which happens to affiliate with SGM – even though that is not relevant to his comments – and we are now wanting clarification on the NIU doctrinal statement and wondering if NIU will go charismatic??

Give me a break, guys!

If you were thoughtfully weighing the question: “Why would NIU grads want to associate with the SGM? What was deficient in their training that caused them to take this turn?” – I could see having the conversation.

But to argue about this? And we wonder why IFB is losing the tiny bit of credibility it has left in both the Christian and secular worlds??

Come on guys – we have to do better… Let’s get real…

[Alex Guggenheim] As far as “god told me so” its Fundie ambiguity does need cleared up… but it is an illegitimate excuse and/or gateway for deliberate charismaticism in any form, light, medium, heavy or proprietary.

I think ‘God told me’ qualifies as charismaticism, only it is cloaked instead of obvious. If SGM churches are being honest about their beliefs on apostolic gifts, they are a step ahead of IFBism IMO, because Fundies have been far from honest in this area. Most refuse to admit that making prophetic declarations and claiming they receive special revelation is just as charismatic as speaking in tongues.

So why not take some responsibility for the state of affairs? Doesn’t humility require us to consider ourselves first when making accusations? Why, instead of “Those sheep you gave me” we don’t hear leadership say “It’s my fault they went wrong”. Why can’t associations and organizations admit that they’ve tolerated this error for far too long in their own camps, that it is possible this has contributed in some way to some (not all) of this doctrinal confusion, and do a thorough house cleaning? If that includes Olson and Northland- fine. But for cryin’ out loud, let’s be fair, honest, and equitable about it.

I’m still waiting for evidence that visiting a church and saying nice things about it is tantamount to a wholesale endorsement of everything in their SoF to the color of the carpet.

Question: If one commends another ministry does that mean that said commender agrees with every aspect that that ministry?

So Matt’s commendation:

My soul was refreshed and encouraged as I saw a variety of things taking place at Grace. At Grace they focus on Christ in all that they do. This was evidenced by their worship, expository preaching, and deliberateness of their service. This is a church that is multi-ethnic, has a heart for the city, thriving with young people, and getting ready to launch a church plant in the next 9-12 months into another part of the city. They get what matters most.

He said they focus on Christ:

• evidenced by their worship …
• expository preaching ..
• deliberateness of their service

Further commendation:

• multi-ethnic
• a heart for the city
• thriving with young people
• getting ready to launch a church plant

He concludes: “They get what matters most.”

Again my question: If one commends another ministry does that mean that said commender agrees with every aspect that that ministry?

Susan,

I understand I think what you are trying to say to Alex and can appreciate your direction there.

One point of consideration - in fairness - for 2000 years there have been many, many different kind of strong Bible-based believers and leaders in a variety of movements that believed in one way or another that, “God told me.” Many of them predate the “charismatic movement.” I don’t believe that in fairness you can call that view (which is mystical to a greater or lesser degree) “charismaticism.” When one says, “God told me” and then equate that to the same level of Scripture/Authority - that would (at least in my book) place one within the charismatic “tent.”

I appreciate the way you ended your post to Alex and I would agree with you entirely. I have said some positive things about a variety of leaders and their ministries - even though in many cases it would not be possible for me to give a whole-hearted endorsement.

Straight Ahead,

back to the football game!

jt

Paul commends Corinth:

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:4-9)

[Joel Tetreau]

Susan,

I understand I think what you are trying to say to Alex and can appreciate your direction there.

One point of consideration - in fairness - for 2000 years there have been many, many different kind of strong Bible-based believers and leaders in a variety of movements that believed in one way or another that, “God told me.” Many of them predate the “charismatic movement.” I don’t believe that in fairness you can call that view (which is mystical to a greater or lesser degree) “charismaticism.” When one says, “God told me” and then equate that to the same level of Scripture/Authority - that would (at least in my book) place one within the charismatic “tent.”

I appreciate the way you ended your post to Alex and I would agree with you entirely. I have said some positive things about a variety of leaders and their ministries - even though in many cases it would not be possible for me to give a whole-hearted endorsement.

Straight Ahead,

back to the football game!

jt

Not to go too far down the bunny trail, but I don’t want folks to think I’m confusing the idea of God ‘speaking’ to us through His preserved Word via the Holy Spirit in ways that are consistent with what we know to be Scripturally supportable, and “God impressed on me that we needed to move to Detroit” (it had to be God, ya’ know, because if it wasn’t, they’d’ve been impressed to move to Waikiki) or “God has called my son/daughter to be a missionary” (and the poor kid is about 4 years old). This is all too common in IFBism, and if that ain’t claiming a gift you ain’t got no kin to, I don’t reckon I know what is.

As for which came first and what it was called, I don’t grasp how that is meaningful to this discussion. If we are declaring noncessationists to be in error, then errors relating to apostolic gifts are erroneous, be they errors of the charismatic movement, or errors in making false claims about gifts not granted to us. Folks died from something called ‘the consumption’ until Dr. Koch discovered the tuberculosis bacillus. ​Is anyone less dead because it now goes by a different name?

Bottom line, IMO- Proverbs 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain. ​I think we are bound by honesty and humility to consider ourselves before attempting to address the errors of others. If the beliefs and associations of Mr. Olson ergo Northland are the first stop this particular bus is taking, then by all means, go for it. But let’s not park the bus there for any longer than necessary.

(This post took forever because I had to stop and buy some popcorn from a Cub Scout. This is serious stuff.)