Homeschoolers and ACT scores
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CNSNews and other sources ar reporting that homeschoolers scored above the national average on the ACT.
“The national average for 2009 graduating high schoolers reported by ACT (American College Testing) officials is 21.1 on a scale from 1 to 36. Homeschoolers scored a national average of 22.5.
Like the SAT, ACT scores are used in the college admissions process to evaluate applicants. Virtually all colleges accept either test, Ed Colby, spokesman for the ACT, told CNSNews.com.
Scores are based on the 1.48 million students who graduated in 2009, Colby said. Among those students were 11,535 homeschoolers, he said.”
College readiness and higher-than-average test scores for homeschoolers are usually attributed to the one-on-one attention, individualization of their course of study, and high degree of self-motivated/directed learning amongst a large percentage of homeschooled students.
Some folks feel that the comparison is not fair. After all, homeschooling tends to self-select for dedicated and engaged parents- a factor amongst all students that contributes to academic success. The average score for public schooled students includes those whose parents are apathetic about their children’s education. But the fact remains- the concerns of those who believe that homeschooling deprives a child of educational quality and opportunity are misplaced. Their concern should instead be aimed at the children who fall through the cracks in the system every day, whose parents simply shuffle their kids off to school without proper clothing or nutrition, adequate supplies, or completed assignments.
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Quibble #1: I don’t have more freedom to homeschool, but it is easier to accomplish any task or embrace a challenge when one has the opportunity, means, and support readily available. I say that because over the years I have counseled single moms and dads of both high and low incomes, some of which are white, black, and Hispanic (working with a retired Cuban granny who has custody of her grandson right now), and if they want to homeschool, they can find a way. I think the more difficult the obstacles one must overcome, the more committed to the task and the more grateful for the opportunity people are. Some of the most rabid HSers I know are single parents and minority families.
Semi-Quibble #2: You should read some of the NEA’s resolutions about homeschooling. They conjured up such a firestorm that they removed their resolutions from public access. “What?” someone says “I don’t believe that!” Then Google “NEA Resolution” and you will article after article that quotes and links to their yearly resolutions- and none of the links work anymore. The phrase ‘sniveling cowards’ comes to mind… They can claim they represent teachers all they want, but http://teachersunionexposed.com/ some teachers would not support that premise.
Now that we have our quibbles on the table, I think we agree more than we disagree, mostly because we speak a different language, or maybe we speak the same language but a different dialect. But that’s OK- we believe in educational freedom and free market solutions. HURRAY FOR US! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-bounce017.gif
Semi-Quibble #2: You should read some of the NEA’s resolutions about homeschooling. They conjured up such a firestorm that they removed their resolutions from public access. “What?” someone says “I don’t believe that!” Then Google “NEA Resolution” and you will article after article that quotes and links to their yearly resolutions- and none of the links work anymore. The phrase ‘sniveling cowards’ comes to mind… They can claim they represent teachers all they want, but http://teachersunionexposed.com/ some teachers would not support that premise.
Now that we have our quibbles on the table, I think we agree more than we disagree, mostly because we speak a different language, or maybe we speak the same language but a different dialect. But that’s OK- we believe in educational freedom and free market solutions. HURRAY FOR US! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-bounce017.gif
:)
[wbarkema]I mean MODERN examples. I think years ago, this was right on. Back then, Christians were not called upon to be as counter-cultural as they now are. At least I think it’s harder.[Ed Vasicek] Do you not agree that more home-schooled children are walking with the Lord in adulthood than children from Christian homes who were public schooled or private schooled? What is your observation?I would not agree with this. My grandparents had 7 kids who in turn had 21 grandkids, 17 which are adults. All 17 of those grandkids attended and graduated from a public school. All 17 of those grandkids are working diligently to walk with the Lord. While I believe peer pressure is a real phenomena, the ability to withstand it does not depend on whether one is homeschooled, public schooled, or working out in the workplace as and adult (where it is just as real as in the teenage years). I would contend that the ability to withstand is not from where they went to school, but from their upbringing and from their relationship with God.
This is somewhat nebulous in that one could find many anecdotal pieces of evidence on all sides. My contention all along has been that homeschooling is good, but it is NOT the only right way to provide an education for every child.
50 years ago, it was a no-brainer — public schools were the way to go. But it is not wise to rear children in 2009 as though it were 1959. Society has changed vastly, and if we do not adjust, we will follow its decay. Which is exactly what is happening. Home schooling, however, only improves the odds. I think the trend is downward across the board, but home schoolers fare better, as a rule.
"The Midrash Detective"
Bro. Vasicek,
As we’ve agreed, there are no guarantees, but I believe it is fair to say that homeschooling improves one’s odds when it comes to laying a good foundation and impacting one’s children for Christ.
As we’ve agreed, there are no guarantees, but I believe it is fair to say that homeschooling improves one’s odds when it comes to laying a good foundation and impacting one’s children for Christ.
Ed,
I think we agree. But it is possible to still have your kids in public school and them do well acedemically and spiritually. My oldest and youngest are in public school. It was not my initial choice, but it is what God wanted.
I think we agree. But it is possible to still have your kids in public school and them do well acedemically and spiritually. My oldest and youngest are in public school. It was not my initial choice, but it is what God wanted.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
The whole question of Germany vs. the U.S. producing “better educated” students is quite a complex one, and not something that can easily be tackled in a blog/forum, but there are some interesting questions that can be addressed. I have spent a lot of time in Germany, married a German, and one of my sisters-in-law is a school teacher in Germany. We speak quite often about the differences, advantages of each system, etc., so although I’m far from an expert, I do have a little insight into this.
I would say that the main difference between the U.S. and German education systems is philosophy. The reason Germany is so against homeschooling is not because the children cannot adequately learn the same facts, skills, reasoning ability, etc. German authorities freely admit that they can. The reason is that Germany makes no bones about not wanting “parallel societies” (code words for people with values different from what the German state thinks everyone ought to hold) to exist alongside the “German” norm. I.e., they freely admit that part of what they want to accomplish in education is indoctrination in social values every “good German” should hold. Unlike the U.S., Germany doesn’t have freedom of speech as we know it. Certain viewpoints, religious ideas, political ideas, are outlawed. For instance, you can go to jail for denying the holocaust. You can’t legally belong to any political party even somewhat resembling National Socialism, etc. They try to limit this to the most extreme views, but even without laws for some of the other, not-as-bad differences, there is a large amount of pressure to conform to the social ideal.
As regards the quality of education, there are several different tracks that children are placed into, very early in their education, depending on skills, etc. Those that take the Abitur (end of high school test) and are university bound represent a very small percentage when compared to the percentage of university bound students in the U.S. Those that do make it this far and do well at the university, are, by and large, as Joseph said, better educated than in the U.S. They consider their university diploma to be more or less the same as the U.S. Master’s degree. Many more students end up in a professional track (things like nursing and physical therapy fit into this), or a trades track (auto mechanics, etc.) It is not impossible to switch tracks as the child is educated and matures, etc., but it can be very difficult, and of course the preparation to pass the Abitur (taken after 13th grade) is quite extensive, and difficult enough for those already on the university track, let alone those who have transferred from one of the other tracks. One of my sisters-in-law passed the Abitur after having been in the professional track, but it took a lot of extra classes and preparation on her part. Even so, she still became a physical therapist rather than attending the university before marrying and moving to the U.S.
I don’t know if you would consider those from the non-university tracks to be “better educated” than those with a U.S. university education, but that’s not the point. Germany’s view is that not everyone needs a university education, and there will always be a need for more skilled laborers than for those who will populate the universities, research laboratories, and think tanks. Their system is designed top-down to meet a certain goal, that being the survival and prosperity of the German “state” as a whole more than the furtherance of the individual (they have a very socialistic view, and are quite proud of it), and seen in that light, it’s understandable why it works the way it does. And this is just a very simplistic overview.
Given the differences in thinking and especially purpose, I don’t see why we would want our educational system to work like theirs (although the NEA seems to think this way, probably the main reason they are against home schooling, IMO). There are many things the Germans do better in their educational system, but that doesn’t make their system as well-suited in general to educating Americans as something like the “freedom of choice” model being discussed would be, IMHO.
I would say that the main difference between the U.S. and German education systems is philosophy. The reason Germany is so against homeschooling is not because the children cannot adequately learn the same facts, skills, reasoning ability, etc. German authorities freely admit that they can. The reason is that Germany makes no bones about not wanting “parallel societies” (code words for people with values different from what the German state thinks everyone ought to hold) to exist alongside the “German” norm. I.e., they freely admit that part of what they want to accomplish in education is indoctrination in social values every “good German” should hold. Unlike the U.S., Germany doesn’t have freedom of speech as we know it. Certain viewpoints, religious ideas, political ideas, are outlawed. For instance, you can go to jail for denying the holocaust. You can’t legally belong to any political party even somewhat resembling National Socialism, etc. They try to limit this to the most extreme views, but even without laws for some of the other, not-as-bad differences, there is a large amount of pressure to conform to the social ideal.
As regards the quality of education, there are several different tracks that children are placed into, very early in their education, depending on skills, etc. Those that take the Abitur (end of high school test) and are university bound represent a very small percentage when compared to the percentage of university bound students in the U.S. Those that do make it this far and do well at the university, are, by and large, as Joseph said, better educated than in the U.S. They consider their university diploma to be more or less the same as the U.S. Master’s degree. Many more students end up in a professional track (things like nursing and physical therapy fit into this), or a trades track (auto mechanics, etc.) It is not impossible to switch tracks as the child is educated and matures, etc., but it can be very difficult, and of course the preparation to pass the Abitur (taken after 13th grade) is quite extensive, and difficult enough for those already on the university track, let alone those who have transferred from one of the other tracks. One of my sisters-in-law passed the Abitur after having been in the professional track, but it took a lot of extra classes and preparation on her part. Even so, she still became a physical therapist rather than attending the university before marrying and moving to the U.S.
I don’t know if you would consider those from the non-university tracks to be “better educated” than those with a U.S. university education, but that’s not the point. Germany’s view is that not everyone needs a university education, and there will always be a need for more skilled laborers than for those who will populate the universities, research laboratories, and think tanks. Their system is designed top-down to meet a certain goal, that being the survival and prosperity of the German “state” as a whole more than the furtherance of the individual (they have a very socialistic view, and are quite proud of it), and seen in that light, it’s understandable why it works the way it does. And this is just a very simplistic overview.
Given the differences in thinking and especially purpose, I don’t see why we would want our educational system to work like theirs (although the NEA seems to think this way, probably the main reason they are against home schooling, IMO). There are many things the Germans do better in their educational system, but that doesn’t make their system as well-suited in general to educating Americans as something like the “freedom of choice” model being discussed would be, IMHO.
Dave Barnhart
Thanks for further explanation, Dave. What you describe is my understanding of things.
Although I have problems with forbidding homeschooling, I understand Germany’s position; if we had National Socialism and the Holocaust in our history, I think we would also be extremely paranoid of letting people do their own thing.
That said, one of the things I favor about the German system, and the European systems in general, is precisely the assumption that not everyone should go to college. That’s what is so idiotic about American education; everyone is not fit for college, period, and that is no mark against them. Everyone is not fit for do a host of things, and the education system should, ideally, recognize that.
Although I have problems with forbidding homeschooling, I understand Germany’s position; if we had National Socialism and the Holocaust in our history, I think we would also be extremely paranoid of letting people do their own thing.
That said, one of the things I favor about the German system, and the European systems in general, is precisely the assumption that not everyone should go to college. That’s what is so idiotic about American education; everyone is not fit for college, period, and that is no mark against them. Everyone is not fit for do a host of things, and the education system should, ideally, recognize that.
[Ed Vasicek] I mean MODERN examples. I think years ago, this was right on. Back then, Christians were not called upon to be as counter-cultural as they now are. At least I think it’s harder.I am not sure if I should be insulted or not. (I know you don’t know me, so no offense taken).
50 years ago, it was a no-brainer — public schools were the way to go. But it is not wise to rear children in 2009 as though it were 1959. Society has changed vastly, and if we do not adjust, we will follow its decay. Which is exactly what is happening. Home schooling, however, only improves the odds. I think the trend is downward across the board, but home schoolers fare better, as a rule.
I am only 38 years old and the 21 grandkids range from my age to 6 years old. Of the grandkids that are adults, all of us have graduated from a PUBLIC HS in the last 20 years. All of us, at this moment in time are working to effectively walk with the Lord.
Admittedly, my interraction with homeschooled kids is limited. But so far I have found them mostly under educated and maladjusted to their peer groups. I dont mean to offend but that has been my experience
[tyork] Admittedly, my interraction with homeschooled kids is limited. But so far I have found them mostly under educated and maladjusted to their peer groups. I dont mean to offend but that has been my experienceThen I think you’d need to define ‘under educated’ and ‘maladjusted to their peer groups’, and how you believe home education is the cause.
From what I’ve seen of teen peer groups, it’s my goal in life for my kids to be ‘maladjusted’.
[tyork] Admittedly, my interraction with homeschooled kids is limited. But so far I have found them mostly under educated and maladjusted to their peer groups. I dont mean to offend but that has been my experienceYeah, some people have poor experiences with homeschoolers although, as Susan says, it would be helpful to clarify what one’s criteria of evaluation are (public schoolers?). Because they are such an minority group, they stick out in people’s minds such that people attribute every trait of a person who happens to be homeschooled to their education, which is as bizarre as it is foolish. If I did that with the vast majority of all school children I’ve met from public school, my assumption would be that most public schoolers are functionally illiterate, anti-intellectual, superficial, and generally stupid.
Now, that that would be a really foolish inference on my part because that simply describes our youth culture, and it has hardly anything necessarily to do with our education system, although that’s a significant factor in the youth culture.
I say all this because I know people really do have a hard time, despite what they say, of separating their limited experience from the inferences they draw about groups, and I would hate for Mr. York to have only bad experiences with homeschoolers and therefore to inadvertently generalize about the group - although he obviously did not do that in his post, for which I am grateful.
[wbarkema]I doubt Mr. Vasicek was attempting to ascertain your age. He was simply pointing out that school dynamics have changed in the last few decades, and the climate and emphasis today is not that of even 20 years ago. His opinion that homeschooling improves the odds does not negate Godly parents raising Godly children and using public schools.[Ed Vasicek] I mean MODERN examples. I think years ago, this was right on. Back then, Christians were not called upon to be as counter-cultural as they now are. At least I think it’s harder.I am not sure if I should be insulted or not. (I know you don’t know me, so no offense taken).
50 years ago, it was a no-brainer — public schools were the way to go. But it is not wise to rear children in 2009 as though it were 1959. Society has changed vastly, and if we do not adjust, we will follow its decay. Which is exactly what is happening. Home schooling, however, only improves the odds. I think the trend is downward across the board, but home schoolers fare better, as a rule.
I am only 38 years old and the 21 grandkids range from my age to 6 years old. Of the grandkids that are adults, all of us have graduated from a PUBLIC HS in the last 20 years. All of us, at this moment in time are working to effectively walk with the Lord.
But all this is getting to far off topic- It has nothing to do with how the general public and academia measure a quality education.
[Joseph]Considering how much emphasis people place on ‘socialization’ and fitting in with peer groups, should that be added to student evaluations? Lest thou sayest that this could not be so, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132397,00.html here is a reminder that mental health screening in schools has been an issue for years.[tyork] Admittedly, my interraction with homeschooled kids is limited. But so far I have found them mostly under educated and maladjusted to their peer groups. I dont mean to offend but that has been my experienceYeah, some people have poor experiences with homeschoolers although, as Susan says, it would be helpful to clarify what one’s criteria of evaluation are (public schoolers?). Because they are such an minority group, they stick out in people’s minds such that people attribute every trait of a person who happens to be homeschooled to their education, which is as bizarre as it is foolish. If I did that with the vast majority of all school children I’ve met from public school, my assumption would be that most public schoolers are functionally illiterate, anti-intellectual, superficial, and generally stupid.
Now, that that would be a really foolish inference on my part because that simply describes our youth culture, and it has hardly anything necessarily to do with our education system, although that’s a significant factor in the youth culture.
I say all this because I know people really do have a hard time, despite what they say, of separating their limited experience from the inferences they draw about groups, and I would hate for Mr. York to have only bad experiences with homeschoolers and therefore to inadvertently generalize about the group - although he obviously did not do that in his post, for which I am grateful.
[Susan R]By maladjusted, I mean that home schoolers that I have seen are awkward in communicating with others that are their age. They seem able to relate to adults but not their age groups. As for under educated, they lack the math and reading skills that they should have at their ages. But as I said, this is limited to my interraction with home schoolers[tyork] Admittedly, my interraction with homeschooled kids is limited. But so far I have found them mostly under educated and maladjusted to their peer groups. I dont mean to offend but that has been my experienceThen I think you’d need to define ‘under educated’ and ‘maladjusted to their peer groups’, and how you believe home education is the cause.
From what I’ve seen of teen peer groups, it’s my goal in life for my kids to be ‘maladjusted’.
I would not consider a young person who related to adults better than to their peers to be maladjusted. I wasn’t homeschooled, and I always related better to adults.
My second question is “How do you know that they were behind in math and reading?” You used the word ‘interaction’, so were you perhaps tutoring them to help them catch up, or possibly close enough to the family to know that the kids were not doing well with their studies? Does your state require yearly testing and evaluations, and do you know how they did on those?
My second question is “How do you know that they were behind in math and reading?” You used the word ‘interaction’, so were you perhaps tutoring them to help them catch up, or possibly close enough to the family to know that the kids were not doing well with their studies? Does your state require yearly testing and evaluations, and do you know how they did on those?
The optimal is for children to relate well and appropriately with both their peers and adults. With the homeschoolers that I have encountered, that wasn’t happening. On the math and reading, their parents shared with me their children’s struggles and failings on tests and evaluations.
[tyork] The optimal is for children to relate well and appropriately with both their peers and adults. With the homeschoolers that I have encountered, that wasn’t happening. On the math and reading, their parents shared with me their children’s struggles and failings on tests and evaluations.you’ve met some homeschooled kids who were, like, really weird. They, like, maybe didn’t have much in common with their peers, and like, ya’ know, didn’t speak their language. I can dig that. Like, totally. ‘Cause I know that kids in public schools, like, ya’ know, never have issues like that. They’re all, ya’ know, like, totally normal and all.
OK- so I’m overdoing the sarcasm. I’m suffering from caffeine deprivation. It’s not pretty. I agree that the optimal is that children be socialized to relate well to all age groups and ethnicities. How does one test for that, or legislate to ensure that all children are nurtured in a way that they are never considered ‘maladjusted’ when compared to their ‘peer group’? And if we as a country decided to go there, I vote we start with the kids in the system, and when schools are proven to provide a more healthy and character building atmosphere than the home, and they are producing a consistent ‘product’, I’ll consider them as an option.
In any case, this thread is about the fact that while people are uncomfortable with the idea that homeschool parents are able to provide a quality education, the evidence doesn’t support the conclusion that homeschoolers should be held to more rigid standards than traditionally schooled children, and that while the system is allowed to fail a large percentage of the nation’s children, homeschoolers aren’t allowed to fail at all. The penalty for having an ‘underperforming’ home educated child is to put them in a system that is crammed FULL of underperforming children. What is the penalty in a public school when about 30% of 8th graders are scoring http://www.edreform.com/_upload/naep-statebystate.pdf] Below Basic in Reading and Math ? The gov’t denies funds to those schools until they get their act together. Oh yeah- that’s a BRILLIANT plan.
[Susan R] In any case, this thread is about the fact that while people are uncomfortable with the idea that homeschool parents are able to provide a quality education…I think what this thread does is show that the home schooling of today is NOT the homeschooling it was of yesterday. Homeschooling has made great strides, not in the fact that parents have been able to impart the requisite knowledge, but due to the availability of greater options for learning material. Homeschooling is proving it is a viable option, but I take issue when it is presented as the only option for parents that care about their children.
One quick question. This may have been discussed, but why is homeschooling only done through HS graduation. Do not the same peer pressure (I would argue greater) and academic issues exist within the college or university context? Probably a separate thread, but something I have always sincerely wondered.
[wbarkema]I take issue with continuing to argue points not made in this thread, nor anywhere on this forum. I have already pointed out that homeschooling today is not the same form of education children received before the invention of public schools. Homeschooling has made great strides because motivated parents have sought out quality materials before marketers caught on to a new demographic and started publishing ‘homeschooling curriculum’ right and left. For instance, The Federalist Papers were available years before A Beka, Bob Jones, or Alpha Omega came down the pike, know what I mean? Ditto Shakespeare, The Prose Writings of William Cullen Bryant, and the Bible. As a matter of fact, I only use textbooks for grammar and math. The rest of my resources come from either my own or the public library because I mostly use ‘real books’, and now I also can take advantage of the internet. Gotta love that.[Susan R] In any case, this thread is about the fact that while people are uncomfortable with the idea that homeschool parents are able to provide a quality education…I think what this thread does is show that the home schooling of today is NOT the homeschooling it was of yesterday. Homeschooling has made great strides, not in the fact that parents have been able to impart the requisite knowledge, but due to the availability of greater options for learning material. Homeschooling is proving it is a viable option, but I take issue when it is presented as the only option for parents that care about their children.
One quick question. This may have been discussed, but why is homeschooling only done through HS graduation. Do not the same peer pressure (I would argue greater) and academic issues exist within the college or university context? Probably a separate thread, but something I have always sincerely wondered.
Also- no one has presented homeschooling as “the only option for parents that care about their children”. Parents who care will be deeply involved in their children’s education, period. Homeschooling is but one way to do that. Any loving parent who takes their duty to their children seriously is to be commended, and I am puzzled by your “homeschooling isn’t successful because of parents but because of curriculum” attitude.
Your second question is also based on a misconception about home education. Home education is not just mom and the kids at the kitchen table doing worksheets. Many HSers, myself included, take advantage of a variety of classes/workshops and opportunities for apprenticeships and mentoring. What homeschooling does provide is an individualistic education directed by the parent, not a principal, school board, publishing company, or federal program.
When it comes to secondary education, a person can choose their school, specific classes, an overall course of study… one can take courses online or attend a local university and continue to have the support of family, friends, and church, or go off to Timbuktu. The goal of any parent is to prepare their child to be an independent adult and not still require parenting when they are 25 years old. My oldest son is working on his college degree in Iraq. There’s no conflict there, no matter how many people try to make one out of it.
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