On the "survivor movement": 'these are folks who have a profoundly unhealthy preoccupation with the alleged wrongs done against them"

I didn’t find Fred Butler’s snarky post very helpful. Spiritual Abuse is a major sin issue in churches today. Why he chose to “mix it up” with a woman who was sued by her pastor for daring to criticize him, I have no idea.

I would suggest a more worthy article on the subject comes from a former SGM pastor. It can be found here:

http://www.rickthomas.net/2012/05/07/former-sovereign-grace-ministries-pastor/

The post wasn’t meant to be intentially snarky as if I am mean-spirited. BTW, how is that former SGM guy’s post more insightful with regards to the problem I see with survivor bloggers?

Lookit, after encountering this group up in OR, and then surfering around the internet examining other so-called “survivor blogs.” I stand by my evaluation as noted by the title of this filing: survivor bloggers are by an large too preoccupied with the bad experiences they had with leadership and whatever church it was they attended. This obsession on getting thier double-pound of flesh from so-called abusive leadership by chronicling in agonizing detail every slight against them and incompotent decision made by a prideful pastor in dealing with their issues, is spiritually unhealthy. Dwelling on personal sin indefinitely is never a good thing for Christians.

Additionally, as I understand the situation in OR per the media (which is hardly the best source for truth for either side), this pastor’s lawsuit was not made in a vacuum. There is a backstory leading up to it, which includes having folks aligned with the group call social services on him and accusing the adults of spreading pornography around to the teens in the church. If you have been unjustly accused over a three year period of such things, and are desparate for it to cease, I can sort of understand the motivation. I happen to disagree that a defamation lawsuit is course one takes, but I can understand it’s reasoning.

So this is more than just some hyper-authoritarian Fundamentalist Mullah like preacher defending his media ministry against a group of innocent victims who’s lives he has destroyed with his over the top legalism.

The first “survivor movement” blog I am aware of is one that raged against the “cult-like” behavior of Pensacola Christian College. I believe it started in the late 1990’s. Before PCC was web-savy, the originator of this group purchased the domain www.pensacolachristiancollege.com and successfully defended it against PCC’s attempt to wrest it away from him. While the website still contains information about / against PCC, it is now out of date. This movement has now morphed into the current website www.pccboard.com.

I think what Fred wrote in his article would typify some of the folks who have frequented there and even some who continue to post there. One of the moderators there also runs www.stufffundieslike.com.

  • If it was your decision to go there …. and if you weren’t happy there …. look in the mirror and blame yourself!
  • If your parents decided for you …. and you weren’t happy there …. blame them UNLESS
  • If your parents paid your way …. thank them
  • If you went to XYZ Christian college because your Pastor / Y/P told you to go there … and you weren’t happy there … Well your parents abdicated their parental role …. blame them. (if they paid you way … see above)
  • If your Pastor / Y/P insists you go to XYZ Christian college … ask them to pay your tuition!

On complaining about accreditation issues:

  • Caveat emptor: buyer beware. The accreditation conversations / news / issues are so 30 years ago! If you went to your school with an expectation without checking it out and you feel the school failed you …. honestly you were just naive and uninformed! (I could use another word that starts with an “S” but I won’t)
  • If you are mid-stream … say at the end of your Freshman year … and you suddenly come to realize that your school does not have the kind of accreditation you expected …. change course!

On complaining about the rules / student handbook , et cetera. See above

On your job prospects now that you have graduated with one of these majors: Bible, youth, Christian Education, Women’s ministries. Camp ministries, Christian puppetry, etc.:

  • On Bible as a major. You could have probably learned all of that at Church if you just read your Bible. If you end up being a Pastor this was probably a good choice. If not … well it’s the expecation thing again and caveat emptor
  • On the others: If you can’t find a job … you were naive and uninformed. You’ve learned something the hard way
  • Ever heard of the STEM fields: STEM fields is an acronym for the fields of study in the categories of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.
  • People go to college many different reasons:
    • Get away from home to “grow up” (here’s a free tip: if you are not working and not really helping to pay your own way …. you are not “growing up”!)
    • Mature as a Christian isolated from the perils of the world
    • Find a spouse (the MRS. degree as they sometimes call it for women!)
    • But it you go to college to find a job … The STEM fields are key

I agree that wallowing is bad, and much of the survivor blogging sounds like hysterical ranting instead of a thoughtful, reasonable, fact-based relation of the situation.

It is sometimes necessary to warn others about a problematic church. People often invest quite a bit of themselves in their church- it is their primary social circle, where they expect to worship the Lord and receive spiritual guidance, and where their kids are encouraged to internalize the teachings and bond with the other young people. They let down their guard, they respect, trust, and admire, and so the pain of betrayal runs deep. By the time folks realize that the pastor is $20,000 in credit card debt and uses the church as his personal piggy bank, that his kids are deeply involved in sexual immorality, his wife is a Jezebel, the youth pastor has a foul mouth and a fouler temper, and any attempt at confronting the issues is squelched with a thorough blackballing, claims of martyrdom and persecution and blahblahblah, the family is lucky to survive the experience emotionally and spiritually intact.

But leave you MUST. A pastor who doesn’t qualify for ministry as per the pertinent Scriptures is NOT a Biblical pastor. Period. Find a church with a qualified pastor, sound doctrine, and the proper view of a healthy Scriptural relationship between church leadership and the congregation. Just make sure YOU know what that is. No sense in the pot calling the kettle black. Then get on with your life. Lesson learned. The best revenge is to live an excellent life.

The same could be said about choosing your church. Why stay if the leadership is so awful? I’m having trouble understanding this so called “spiritual” abuse. I understand sexual, physical, and mental abuses that need to be addressed publically, but spiritual abuse? What is that? If you are an adult and, in your opinion, the pastor is unscriptural in his dealings with members then go to another church. Don’t wring your hands about being a victim of “shunning” by the members there if you leave. If they are shallow enough to choose to stay under an autocratic church situation and decide not to speak to you then so be it and move on. If the pastor wants to “discipline” you then just don’t show up.

I know I’ll get flack for being insensitive, but are we so pampered that we become an emotional wreck for being “shunned” and not accepted by those in the wrong? We need to be stronger in our faith than this.

It is sad to see such a lack of understanding and sympathy for Christ’s sheep who have been battered and bruised by their shepherds. Yes, some people are weak. They don’t all have long years of experience in healthy church environments. They found something that seemed good and biblical and they committed to it. Some are deeply emotionally invested in a church that taught them it was a superior kind of Christianity – the “happiest place on earth.” They give heart and soul to leaders who take advantage of them. It is common, not rare. Some “movements” are characterized by such abuse. These same movements and leaders are sometimes affirmed and welcomed by men with good reputations and are known to be solid, adding to the confusion. It is a godly leader’s task to “help the weak,” at least according to my Bible, not mock them for trusting in men who are supposed to be Christ’s servants.

What is spiritual abuse? Is it real? One recent article described it this way:

• Church leaders who use guilt or greed to compel attendance, financial giving or service
• Spiritual leaders who take emotional or sexual advantage of others in the name of “comfort or compassion”
• Religious people who accuse those who disagree with them of being rebellious against God
• Ministry leaders who demand absolute, unquestioned obedience no matter what … whether reasonable or not … whether biblical or not

Here is Ronald Enroth’s description:

control-oriented leadership,

spiritual elitism,

manipulation of members,

perceived persecution,

lifestyle rigidity,

emphasis on experience,

suppression of dissent,

harsh discipline of members,

denunciation of other churches,

and the painful exit process.

Helpful questions for members would include:

___ Do they exalt someone as an irrefutable authority in the group?
___ Do they demand your absolute allegiance?
___ Do they discourage your questions?
___ Do they shame people publicly?
___ Do they insist on making major decisions in your life?
___ Do they have a long list of rules related to dress, hairstyle, diet or activities?
___ Do they judge those who do not keep their list of rules?
___ Do they consider themselves the “only true church”?
___ Do they consider those who leave their group “apostates,” “backsliders” or “doomed”?
___ Do they teach that godly people should give more financially so that they will receive more?

Fred: I’ve read your comment and find it interesting that you come to the defense of the pastor without having knowledge of this case. First you base your accusation on media saying it is not the best source for truth, but then say the pastor’s lawsuit was not made in a vacuum. Then you go on to say: “which includes having folks aligned with the group call social services on him and accusing the adults of spreading pornography around to the teens in the church”.

Where is this information coming from? “Folks” - meaning more than one person has reported it? I haven’t found any such wording in the court documents and have first-hand knowledge about who turned him in for not reporting sexual offender in the church.

And then you use the word “unjustly accused”. How do you know he is unjustly accused? How intimate are you to this situation? More intimate that me, a defendant who speaks very frequently with former members? CPS never discloses who reports. It is illegal to do so. It sounds like you are echoing the words of our former pastor who is claiming that people reported him. The truth is that there is no former member that I know (and I know quite a few) who reported him for abuses. None of us believe he is a sexual offender. It doesn’t take a rocket science to figure out that CPS initiated the investigation on their own after learning that the pastor harbored a sex offender in his church for approximately 8 months without reporting it (btw, this sex offender was tried and convicted of sex crimes including rape, etc).

If you are going to go from blog to blog spreading your opinions on this matter of which you are not personally connected, please provide proof of where you are getting your information.

I am happy to provide public legal documents to any who ask: bgbcsurvivors@gmail.com

Wayne - Families of alcoholics like to cover up alcoholism and make excuses for it and I find the same happening in the Christian community where spiritual abuse is concerned. Read Ezekial 34 and Jude. Spiritual abuse shatters souls, leaving people confused, angry at church, pastors and God. Interestingly, after I was sued and the media spread the story, I was inundated by e-mails. Many were from atheists who said they were devastatingly hurt in a church situation - so much so that they never could go back to church and don’t trust pastors/God. There are indeed pastors who do not exmplify Christ. They put their own needs and desires first and devour the sheep. Thank you for speaking up for them here. We cannot abandon these precious souls.

One must not confuse disagreements on rules or procedural differences of opinion as spiritual abuse. They are clearly not the same.

[Wayne Wilson]

What is spiritual abuse? Is it real? One recent article described it this way:

• Church leaders who use guilt or greed to compel attendance, financial giving or service
• Spiritual leaders who take emotional or sexual advantage of others in the name of “comfort or compassion”
• Religious people who accuse those who disagree with them of being rebellious against God
• Ministry leaders who demand absolute, unquestioned obedience no matter what … whether reasonable or not … whether biblical or not

Wayne, unfortunately, many of the descriptions of “spiritual abuse” you provided are too subjective to be helpful. For example, I’ve seen examples of people claiming to be victims of spiritual abuse who were the recipients of church discipline for unrepentant sin or for clearly violating the rules of a Christian college. They claimed “control-oriented leadership,” “spiritual elitism,” “manipulation,” “harsh discipline,” “shunning,” etc. while minimizing / justifying their own sin.

I’ve also known people who claim to be victims of “spiritual abuse” who were confronted about sinful decisions they were making and got their feelings hurt because the confrontation didn’t leave them feeling warm and fuzzy.

I grant that there are real cases of abusive leadership in churches and Christian institutions, but I wonder if many of these “victims” are only victims of their own pride, over-sensitivity, and sin.

Julie Anne writes,

Where is this information coming from? “Folks” - meaning more than one person has reported it? I haven’t found any such wording in the court documents and have first-hand knowledge about who turned him in for not reporting sexual offender in the church.

I am merely reading online statements and media reports. I don’t have any “inside sources” if that is what you are implying. The online statement at the church website states that former members, plural, which would mean “folks,” have called the police, DHS (social services) and the media to accuse the pastor and other current church members of being a pedophile, and allowing sex offenders free access to children. Are you telling me you weren’t involved with any calling of these individual agencies against anyone in the church? Do you mean to say that this pastor and church are lying as to the truth of the matter? Can you prove that apart from your “he said, she said” testimony? Did any of these charges stick? Meaning, arrests of individuals, etc.?

this sex offender was tried and convicted of sex crimes including rape,

According to this report, this sex offender was a mentally handicapped teenager. Is that the “offender” who was tried and convicted of sex crimes including rape or was there other ones?

Wayne, unfortunately, many of the descriptions of “spiritual abuse” you provided are too subjective to be helpful. For example, I’ve seen examples of people claiming to be victims of spiritual abuse who were the recipients of church discipline for unrepentant sin or for clearly violating the rules of a Christian college. They claimed “control-oriented leadership,” “spiritual elitism,” “manipulation,” “harsh discipline,” “shunning,” etc. while minimizing / justifying their own sin.

Of course, one can make those claims and be entirely in the wrong. Anyone who has been in ministry knows that. That doesn’t diminish the reality of spiritual abuse, as one brother above claimed he couldn’t even grasp the concept. All of these markers for spiritual abuse are common and geniunely abusive. Just because someone can cry “Abuse!” when there is none doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur. Police brutality is real, even though people often scream police brutality when reasonable force is used. You can read Enroth’s book for a detailed understanding of the terms I listed as they describe genuinely abusive spiritual authority.

My problem is the disdain shown for real victims here. Fred asked how the “former SGM guy’s post” was more insightful than his. I hesitated to point out the obvious, but perhaps I should. It is found in the word compassion. Former SGM guy Rick Thomas :

I never condone my sin and I don’t condone the sin of others, but I get it. When people are hurting, more than likely they will respond sinfully. In such cases I listen to them, but I listen through them first – I listen to the real story, the hurt, not the sin that is coming out of their mouths.

I want to help them. In time, after they have been heard, helped, and are on the road to being healed, you can begin to address their sinful reactions. If I rebuked them or marginalized them because they did not say it the way I wanted them to say it, I would never be able to help them.

There is nothing like that in Fred’s original blog posted here on SI…nothing even close. Survivor blogs are often full of hurting people. They are open forums. Some people on them behave badly. Some have left the faith. Some believe, but can’t set foot in church again. Some have recovered enough to seek out fellowship again. Survivor blogs are safe places for people to know they’re not alone. They often encourage each other and try to understand what happened to them…why they feel shattered by their church experience. The blogs are messy. There is wisdom to be found and foolishness. But it’s where people turn when the truly wounded are treated as whiners and weaklings by those who should be ministering grace to them.

Your original statement referred to media. I don’t consider the pastor’s statement to be media.

Are you telling me you weren’t involved with any calling of these individual agencies against anyone in the church?

That is 100% correct. I made no phone calls to police or DHS. I know of only one person, Meaghan, who made a report to DHS. She did not contact police regarding the abuse, only DHS. Meaghan, did however contact the police regarding trespassing. The pastor/elders came to her home unannounced with concealed recording device. This was a couple months after Meaghan’s family left the church. This was not related to the sexual abuse.

Do you mean to say that this pastor and church are lying as to the truth of the matter?

If he is claiming that I called or any other person other than Meaghan (who admitted in her court document that she notififed authorities), then yes, I do not believe that he is telling the truth. In the MSNBC article you linked, it only mentions Meaghan as the informant to DHS.

Can you prove that apart from your “he said, she said” testimony? Did any of these charges stick? Meaning, arrests of individuals, etc.?

this sex offender was tried and convicted of sex crimes including rape,

According to this report, this sex offender was a mentally handicapped teenager. Is that the “offender” who was tried and convicted of sex crimes including rape or was there other ones?

This document links to the sexual offender’s mother’s court declaration. She states he was charged and convicted and is serving time. It is located on the bottom of Page 12. My attorney has found the info regarding his charges and found he was charged with rape along with other sexual crimes (against minors, not just one).