Is a 0% Tax "more Biblical?"
Forum category
Even our Lord anticipated the paying of taxes - “render unto Ceasar that which is ceasar” (Math 22:21). Also don’t forget in Math 17 Jesus provided a coin in the mouth of a fish so that Peter could pay the Temple Tax. It is hardly responsible to try to say that the most Christian thing a government can do is to not tax it’s citizens. As a citizen my hope is that the government will be careful with it’s spending - but if they are not, again it is not consistent to assume that we should not pay tax or that the government should not collect tax. So for Ron Paul to say last night in the debate that he would want a tax level of 0% - please don’t equate that with anything Biblical! This view is nothing more than Mr. Paul’s own economic theory - which not unlike his approach to many other things seems more nieve than wise. Friends, don’t let your friends vote for Ron Paul!
I am Joel Tetreau, I am my own “super pack” :) and I approve this message!
Straight Ahead!
jt
I am Joel Tetreau, I am my own “super pack” :) and I approve this message!
Straight Ahead!
jt
I failed to end the previous note with the following “fine print”
“The political views and statements made here reflect only the views of Joel Tetreau and are in no way, shape or form the official position taken by SI or this station……”
Straight Ahead!
jt
“The political views and statements made here reflect only the views of Joel Tetreau and are in no way, shape or form the official position taken by SI or this station……”
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
I am sure many will disagree with you Joel. Of course, they would also be disagreeing with Joseph who had the audacity to institute a 20% tax back in Egypt. That was of course before he instituted a socialist scheme to defraud those poor Egyptians of all their private property during the famine. He apparently did not know what we know today about how capitalism is God’s way and private property is a God-given right :)
This was highly dubious. First, the text says that 20% of the produce was stored up by Pharoah, but it says nothing about whether it was taken by force (tax) or purchased. Of course, Pharoah had “insider information” — he knew the price was going to skyrocket, but so did everyone else.
“Poor Egyptians” — sorry, but it was only wealthy Egyptians who had land to begin with.
“Defraud” — absurd. They were purchasing food. There was no fraud. It was a legitimate transaction, and they knew full well what they were buying and selling.
“Socialist” — no, socialism would have just given them the food.
Any Egyptian who had land could have stored up in the seven good years, just like Pharoah did under Joseph’s counsel. What was going on wasn’t a secret. The only Egyptians who suffered loss were those who didn’t believe what God said and were profligate in the good years.
It was a very different world and culture, and these accounts shouldn’t be viewed through the framework of our modern philosophical and political controversies.
In any event, there is absolutely nothing in Scripture to say that this was supposed to be a model for anything. All it is doing is telling what happened.
If we’re going to form a political/economic philosophy based on Scripture, we should look at clear principles from the NT and also at principles we can learn from the system God instituted for Israel. There was a strong sense of private property in the OT, tempered by an understanding that the land really belongs to God and is held in stewardship. There was no inheritance tax, for instance. But God had the right to give specific instructions as to how your land was used, and to prevent land-barons taking over all of the property and causing permanent poverty for other families. It was a far cry from modern socialism, which inevitably bankrupts itself, as history has shown over and over again, and current events in Europe are again demonstrating. It also had significant differences from unrestricted capitalism.
If we had a federal tax level of 0%, churches would have to get really serious about caring for the truly poor. So it might be a good thing, in an ideal world. But you have to have enough revenue from somewhere to pay the debt and provide national defence.
“Poor Egyptians” — sorry, but it was only wealthy Egyptians who had land to begin with.
“Defraud” — absurd. They were purchasing food. There was no fraud. It was a legitimate transaction, and they knew full well what they were buying and selling.
“Socialist” — no, socialism would have just given them the food.
Any Egyptian who had land could have stored up in the seven good years, just like Pharoah did under Joseph’s counsel. What was going on wasn’t a secret. The only Egyptians who suffered loss were those who didn’t believe what God said and were profligate in the good years.
It was a very different world and culture, and these accounts shouldn’t be viewed through the framework of our modern philosophical and political controversies.
In any event, there is absolutely nothing in Scripture to say that this was supposed to be a model for anything. All it is doing is telling what happened.
If we’re going to form a political/economic philosophy based on Scripture, we should look at clear principles from the NT and also at principles we can learn from the system God instituted for Israel. There was a strong sense of private property in the OT, tempered by an understanding that the land really belongs to God and is held in stewardship. There was no inheritance tax, for instance. But God had the right to give specific instructions as to how your land was used, and to prevent land-barons taking over all of the property and causing permanent poverty for other families. It was a far cry from modern socialism, which inevitably bankrupts itself, as history has shown over and over again, and current events in Europe are again demonstrating. It also had significant differences from unrestricted capitalism.
If we had a federal tax level of 0%, churches would have to get really serious about caring for the truly poor. So it might be a good thing, in an ideal world. But you have to have enough revenue from somewhere to pay the debt and provide national defence.
My point is there is no defined one-size-fits-all Biblical model for taxes, private property, etc. Regardless of how people try to spin it, Joseph would have been fiscally liberal by today’s standards. You have to really put on some blinders to believe otherwise. Just take a deep breath and read the account in Genesis without trying to twist it to coincide with your economic beliefs.
:)
By today’s standards, fiscal liberals want to spend far in excess of 20% of the agricultural contribution to GDP. If Joseph paid for the grain, that is the only amount that we know he spent. And if he did spend that much, it was the equivalent of a nation today building their currency or petroleum reserves.
There was zero deficit spending at all, even if he borrowed money to build the reserve. And if he simply applied an agricultural tax of 20% (rather than paying for it) as you originally suggested, that tax went to build a massive surplus.
That is so far removed from what today’s fiscal liberals advocate and do that, well….
No, I don’t see “fiscal conservatives” doing what Joseph did, either. He generated a massive surplus for the government, one way or another, and fiscal conservatives mostly seem to advocate a balanced budget.
But again, there’s nothing to say that Joseph is supposed to be a model in any way. And there certainly are Biblical principles that apply.
By today’s standards, fiscal liberals want to spend far in excess of 20% of the agricultural contribution to GDP. If Joseph paid for the grain, that is the only amount that we know he spent. And if he did spend that much, it was the equivalent of a nation today building their currency or petroleum reserves.
There was zero deficit spending at all, even if he borrowed money to build the reserve. And if he simply applied an agricultural tax of 20% (rather than paying for it) as you originally suggested, that tax went to build a massive surplus.
That is so far removed from what today’s fiscal liberals advocate and do that, well….
No, I don’t see “fiscal conservatives” doing what Joseph did, either. He generated a massive surplus for the government, one way or another, and fiscal conservatives mostly seem to advocate a balanced budget.
But again, there’s nothing to say that Joseph is supposed to be a model in any way. And there certainly are Biblical principles that apply.
LOL. I am giving up. You are proving my original point and reminding me why I should hit myself over the head when I have the urge to post here.
Greg,
The Bible does have a position on private property rights as revealed in laws against stealing. Stealing is impossible in a world with no private property rights.
The Bible does have a position on private property rights as revealed in laws against stealing. Stealing is impossible in a world with no private property rights.
I’m for taxes. My own “plan” (I’ll be setting up my own SuperPaC to which you may donate millions)
- Three tax levels: Say 8%, 15% and 25%. Graduated
- Every working citizen pays some tax
- Investment income (capital gains, dividends, and interest) taxed at the same rates as above
- Eliminate deductions such as donations to non-profits, mortgage interest, etc.
- Health care benefits provided by an employer would be taxed but everyone would get up to an $ 8,000 tax rebate if they buy insurance). So if the employer provides insurance and it’s cost is $ 8,000 or less … would not be taxed.
- Elimate corporate income taxes completely. Why: Because
- They all just get passed onto the consumer in higher prices
- Corporate taxes just encouage corporate tax deductions like big corporations buying suites at stadiums.
- They all just get passed onto the consumer in higher prices
Better yet, Jim, instead of taxing income, tax sales. That way, all income is treated the same. Everyone pays taxes and shares the burden, and everyone controls how much taxes they pay. If you want to pay less, then buy less, or buy cheaper. If you want to pay more, buy more.
There is no end of the year crunch, and the government doesn’t get to borrow people’s money for free until refund day.
However, any national sales tax must include revocation of all other taxes. IOW, this cannot be an ad-on. It must be a replacement.
But since that will never happen, the elimination of deductions for non-profits won’t be good because it will shift the burden to government, and they will never be as efficient as non-profits (though we probably need to reign in non-profits and more clearly define them; it’s hard to justify being a non-profit when you pay your CEO a half-mil or more a year). Removing house deductions will severely hurt the housing market because it will remove one reason for buying a house. It will hurt communities because more people will become landlords, and rent prices will go up because the competition (buying) is off the table.
Health care benefits could be a refundable tax credit or rebate. But either way, it needs to be the same. Because I pay individual health insurance, I have to pay taxes on mine. If my insurance company would let my employer pay it, I would not have to pay taxes on it.
There is no end of the year crunch, and the government doesn’t get to borrow people’s money for free until refund day.
However, any national sales tax must include revocation of all other taxes. IOW, this cannot be an ad-on. It must be a replacement.
But since that will never happen, the elimination of deductions for non-profits won’t be good because it will shift the burden to government, and they will never be as efficient as non-profits (though we probably need to reign in non-profits and more clearly define them; it’s hard to justify being a non-profit when you pay your CEO a half-mil or more a year). Removing house deductions will severely hurt the housing market because it will remove one reason for buying a house. It will hurt communities because more people will become landlords, and rent prices will go up because the competition (buying) is off the table.
Health care benefits could be a refundable tax credit or rebate. But either way, it needs to be the same. Because I pay individual health insurance, I have to pay taxes on mine. If my insurance company would let my employer pay it, I would not have to pay taxes on it.
Isn’t Ron Paul a FairTax supporter? That means an elimination of the federal income tax, but not of all taxation. And I am all for the FairTax.
Ron Paul advocated for 0% income taxes, not 0% taxes. There is a difference. http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/taxes/ I don’t recall him claiming that this is a more “Christian” way to go.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue…
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue…
What you made last year = X
What you spent last year = Y
What’s left over = Tax!
(You don’t need to worry about anything else because the gov’t will pay for your birth, your medicine, and your funeral……”Oh Canada!”……which reminds me… Here’s one way we can avoid the mess of paying everything off, and possibly go with the 0% tax plan of Paul - Let’s go ahead and invade Canada and let them pay our national debt off! They have lots of money! Then we can sit around drink beer, harvest maple syrup, hunt duck, play hockey, take 6 weeks off for vacation and then we can complain about those neighbors to the North…….Ah!?)
What you spent last year = Y
What’s left over = Tax!
(You don’t need to worry about anything else because the gov’t will pay for your birth, your medicine, and your funeral……”Oh Canada!”……which reminds me… Here’s one way we can avoid the mess of paying everything off, and possibly go with the 0% tax plan of Paul - Let’s go ahead and invade Canada and let them pay our national debt off! They have lots of money! Then we can sit around drink beer, harvest maple syrup, hunt duck, play hockey, take 6 weeks off for vacation and then we can complain about those neighbors to the North…….Ah!?)
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
Discussion