Neal Jackson Resigns from Pensacola's Campus Church after 2 1/2 Years

There are provisions for ministerial students at PCC to attend local area churches, as well. I appreciate the comparison of BJs AM service to the Campus church. While the situations are not entirely analogous, there is a certain pragmatism evident in both options. And I’d like to pile on and thank Jack for the “irregular church” designation. I will be using that from now on.

irregular church

“Church out of order” is the historical designation, I think, isn’t it?

and name it the General Association of Irregular Baptist Churches… and since it’s irregular, you get the tithing discount rate of 8%… http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing003.gif

It’s been a while since I’ve seen a Sword of the Lord, but I think I recall the campus Church advertising themselves as a Baptist church. If that’s still the case….irregular would be the word.

[Ron Bean] It’s been a while since I’ve seen a Sword of the Lord, but I think I recall the campus Church advertising themselves as a Baptist church. If that’s still the case….irregular would be the word.

According to the C.C. website (http://www.campuschurch.com/Staff.html) they claim to be “an independent Baptist church.” The header changes to reveal that description on the 3rd transition.

[Jim Peet] Back to is the Campus Church a “church”

Here’s what is on record with the Florida Department of State’s Division of Corporations:

• “Campus Church” is registered as a Fictitious Name owned by (a subsidiary of) PCC: http://sunbiz.org/pdf/48740164.pdf [Notice Arlin Horton’s signature on the application form.]
  
• So with the Campus Church as a wholly-owned subsidiary of PCC; then the question arises “Who/what constitutes the governance of PCC?”: http://sunbiz.org/pdf/50749085.pdf
  

Of the seven corporate officers/directors listed, there are 5 men & 2 women. Arlin Horton is listed as President & a Director. The two women are Beka Horton (listed as Secretary, Treasurer, & Director); and a Virginia Kilpatrick (listed as a Director).

So of the seven persons that serve as the de facto, legal, governing board of the Campus Church: two are women.

So under the Baptistic, complementarian understanding of N.T. church Eldership, this doesn’t appear to qualify…

How can it be an independent Baptist church if it is ‘owned’ by a corporation, even if the corporation is a Baptist college? I think Jim has a point if in fact there are two women acting as authorities over the church. That’s not just irregular, it’s unScriptural.

Regardless of the Campus Church’s form of government, it still must not be considered a church because it does not allow its members/attenders to exercise their spiritual gifts, it does not properly administer church discipline, and its leadership lacks ANY accountability.

Another solution may present itself for PCC. When Dr. and Mrs. Horton retires/dies, if the next President of PCC is also the Pastor of the Campus Church that may solve some of the issues.

[SHoward] There are provisions for ministerial students at PCC to attend local area churches, as well. I appreciate the comparison of BJs AM service to the Campus church. While the situations are not entirely analogous, there is a certain pragmatism evident in both options.

For BJ that pragmatism goes back to at least Bob Jones College’s move to Greenville in 1947. At the time Greenville had few local church options. There were many Southern Baptist congregations at the time, but there was a great deal of hostility between the South Carolina Southern Baptist leadership and BJU since the new school was now in competition with Furman University (then located in downtown Greenville just minutes from BJ’s campus). As a result there were very few churches for BJ students to attend.

So in the beginning the Sunday morning service filled a void. Then in the mid-1950s another component entered the equation. A high-ranking member of BJ’s administration, Theodore Mercer, left BJU under bad terms and took a substantial minority of the faculty with him (he went to Bryan College in 1956). After “Mercer’s Rebellion,” required attendance at the Sunday morning services was thought to encourage loyalty to the institution and uniformity of belief.

In the decades since, particularly in the past twenty years, uniformity of thought has become less of an emphasis at BJU. Also, the BJU-friendly local church community in Greenville has grown exponentially. Both early justifications for the BJU morning service had been annulled. Since the 1980s the school has moved away from a universal, required morning service and has emphasized its desire to have students involved in local church ministries.

As I’ve argued in blog posts (if interested, see earlier comment for links) I believe this trend should continue. Ridding itself of any semblance of being a church makes BJ stand out more by way of comparison with PCC. PCC still has the desire for ideological conformity. They pride themselves on producing fundamental, independent, dispensationalist Baptists (capitalization intended); indeed, that is how they sell themselves to parents. In order to ensure the product that they have guaranteed the parents they need a nearly universal, mandated Campus Church.

Uncle Jack, I’d welcome your input; you know far more about the history of the BJ morning service/campus church than I.

[Norm] I wish I had known of these conditions when I was a student. I’ve been to funerals that are more lively than the Sunday Mass at BJU!!

Personally, I thought the service was very stately and dignified. But my wiring is such that I prefer to emphasize the ojective in worship rather than the subjective. If I’m right that it’s more about paying our respects to the Creator—and Savior—and not so much about having my own “heart warmed,” the BJU approach is a solid one.
(It’s also pretty hard to sell any service as a “Mass” that doesn’t include Eucharist)

Edit: about PCC campus church… looks to me like we’ve heard all the points for “unscriptural” and all the points for “irregular, but still a church” as well as the case for “not a church.” Maybe we’ve about worn the topic out.

[Norm]
I wish I had known of these conditions when I was a student. I’ve been to funerals that are more lively than the Sunday Mass at BJU!!

If there were such conditions for dorm students (other than already being a member at one of the local churches, though not a town student, or being involved on a regular basis in one of those churches through an extension ministry, or preaching internship, etc.), I don’t remember hearing about them. This was from 81-85.

And as regards the Sunday morning service, at least a few of us loved it and thought it appropriately majestic and reverential. Your view on it probably depended a great deal on what sort of church/tradition you came from. Of course, that is entirely separate from the question of whether having a required on-campus morning service was the right thing to do.

You are correct Mr. Barnhart, in that enjoyment of the service and one’s view of its appropriateness is a matter of perspective. I found it a little too Anglican for my liking, but honestly it was not a real big issue in the grand scheme of things—someone above mentioning alternatives to it just happened to catch my eye.
In my list of likes or dislikes about BJU, the Sunday morning service is barely a blip on the radar. I attended the service as required, and then enjoyed the Sunday evening service at a church in town.

On the other hand, I think alot of good questions have been raised in this thread as regards the PCC “church” and looking back I think it was a smart move on BJ’s part to not call the morning service a church.

I know that when I attended BJ, the moniker “mass” was mainly a result of the “high church” atmosphere that was cultivated. The men on the platform and the choirs wore robes. Students were “encouraged” to refrain from casual conversation upon entering the FMA. The organ played an impressive fanfare for the prelude. It was all clearly done with the intention of reverence, but was often perceived by the student body as too self-aware, even stuffy. That’s not to say students wanted dancing in the aisles or a gospel sing. It just magnified a distance already present in the size of the auditorium and audience. It was kind of like being the audience for a radio broadcast - you provided background for the show.

That said, I benefitted greatly from the music ministry and the preaching. I would rather have attended an actual church where I could have participated, but I do remember “Sunday mass” with fondness.

[Paul Matzko] Uncle Jack, I’d welcome your input; you know far more about the history of the BJ morning service/campus church than I.

When Bob Jones College began in 1927, it had a campus church service. There was no alternative. The campus was seven miles from Panama City, some of that route dirt road. There wasn’t much in Panama City anyway. And the students didn’t have cars, although at least one guy had a motorcycle. One student of the era remembered the Florida campus being so isolated “you could hear the owls hoot.” Sunday school classes were divided by denomination, typically with students bringing the lessons. Afternoon “Vespers”—at first called “Twilight Musicales”—served as a sort of evening service.

From my perspective of just reading this thread, I have come to these conclusions.

• PCC’s Campus Church can not be considered a normal Independent Baptist Church (as Bryan Brice informs us from the PCC website in reply #50 above)
• It does however bear a resemblance to a laboratory setting. Such a setting is not unknown in the physical or agricultural sciences.
• As for BJ’s morning service, it just may be a little “high” church for most here. I put it down to the founders being Methodist or Presbyterian. My Great Grand Father the Methodist-Episcopalian pastor used tell the organist he wanted the processional to be played at the quick march not like a funeral dirge.