Leadership Change at ABWE

ABWE’s letter said that they were forming a committee to “assess the needs of the administration.”

Isn’t that something they should have done BEFORE letting Loftis go. Shouldn’t they have assessed the needs of the administration and then comparing their needs to Loftis’ abilities, found him unable to lead ABWE in the future? I know the information is scanty, but I would think you’d come up with what ABWE’s needs were, first, and then see if you have the administration in place to meet those needs, rather than getting rid of your leader first and then coming up with what the needs of the administration will be.

Bro. Charles- what in the wording made you think they got the cart before the horse? It looked to me like they considered their needs and then decided they needed a new president. In light of recent events, perhaps they do need a top down overhaul, and they are being tactful and circumspect in how they represent what they are doing.

I am surprised he resigned before http://www.netgrace.org/index.asp?str_string=Home~none~none] GRACE finished their investigation!

full disclosure: Mike and I are MK ‘cousins.’ We both grew up in Jamaica as BMM MK’s.

The information regarding the interim appointee, Dr. Al Cockrell, includes the following:

Al has also served as a Senior Consultant with “Injoy”, an organization founded by John Maxwell to help churches develop leadership and direction for their future.

This statement regarding the new leader indicates an association with a person and organization that is very left evangelical in the theological spectrum. Maxwell is one who has been, and often is, associated with the ministry of Robert Schuller and has a similar theology. He has been a regular speaker at the Crystal Cathedral. I do not know of any Fundamentalist or conservative Evangelical who would consider association with John Maxwell or his organization called Injoy. Why would ABWE even consider such an appointment?

Wickepedia has the following statement regarding John Maxwell:

For over thirty years, Maxwell has led churches in Indiana, Ohio, California, and Florida. After serving as senior pastor for 14 years, in 1995, he left Skyline Church, near San Diego, to devote himself full-time to speaking and writing. However, in 2004, he returned to ministry at Christ Fellowship in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, where he is currently a teaching pastor. On November 16, 2008, Maxwell began serving as a guest pastor at the world-famous Crystal Cathedral, in Orange County, California. Maxwell’s mentor, Robert H. Schuller, has had a variety of noted evangelical pastors preach at his megachurch since his son, Robert A. Schuller, resigned as senior pastor in 2008. Maxwell has returned to preach at the Crystal Cathedral several times, and his messages are broadcast worldwide on the Hour of Power television program, seen by an estimated 20 million viewers.[6]

[Susan R] Bro. Charles- what in the wording made you think they got the cart before the horse? It looked to me like they considered their needs and then decided they needed a new president. In light of recent events, perhaps they do need a top down overhaul, and they are being tactful and circumspect in how they represent what they are doing.

Loftis had to leave either becasue he did something wrong which the letter made clear was not the reason, or because the board did some strategic planning and found that Loftis was not the leader ABWE needed going forward. I’m finding fault with the statement the letter made that the board would be assessing the needs of the administration. Shouldn’t they already have done this before letting Loftis go?

[Jonathan Charles]

[Susan R] Bro. Charles- what in the wording made you think they got the cart before the horse? It looked to me like they considered their needs and then decided they needed a new president. In light of recent events, perhaps they do need a top down overhaul, and they are being tactful and circumspect in how they represent what they are doing.

Loftis had to leave either becasue he did something wrong which the letter made clear was not the reason, or because the board did some strategic planning and found that Loftis was not the leader ABWE needed going forward. I’m finding fault with the statement the letter made that the board would be assessing the needs of the administration. Shouldn’t they already have done this before letting Loftis go?

Right- it’s like they said “We want something different and you (Loftis) ain’t it”, but are now actually putting together a ‘presidential profile’. It leaves me with the impression that they are employing a new broom strategy.

Bob…I’ve known Al Cockrell for over 20 years. He is an Independent Baptist. He is a theological fundamentalist in the historic sense. He has never marched to the drum of a “camp”. He is not historically GARB. He served on the board of directors for the Florida Association of Christian Colleges and Schools with me and when I became President. His time at Injoy was during a time after he had been treated very poorly by a church and he was in between ministries. He’s a good man with a great reputation. He’s a perfect choice as an interim director. Granted, he’s not as hard right as you — but he never has been. For those of us not searching for a “new evangelical” under every twig and leaf, he’s a logical choice.

If there has been some strategic planning concerning the future of ABWE (there seems to have been enough to let Loftis go), at some point the board of ABWE should let churches know what their vision is concerning the board going forward. I’m familiar with some of the board members and can’t imagine them doing a Cedarville. I don’t think they need to publicize anything about Loftis, but at some point they need to publicize where ABWE is headed in light of recent thinking and prayer that led them to believe that where they are going, Loftis isn’t the one to lead them there.

ABWE also needs to make clear that Loftis’ departure has something or nothing to do w/ his handling of the Donn Ketcham matter.

The blog set up concerning the abuse in Bangladesh has some comments made about this change in leadership along with other that some would like to see: http://bangladeshmksspeak.com/2011/06/abwe-announces-change-of-leadersh…

[Dan Burrell] Bob…I’ve known Al Cockrell for over 20 years. He is an Independent Baptist. He is a theological fundamentalist in the historic sense. He has never marched to the drum of a “camp”. He is not historically GARB. He served on the board of directors for the Florida Association of Christian Colleges and Schools with me and when I became President. His time at Injoy was during a time after he had been treated very poorly by a church and he was in between ministries. He’s a good man with a great reputation. He’s a perfect choice as an interim director. Granted, he’s not as hard right as you — but he never has been. For those of us not searching for a “new evangelical” under every twig and leaf, he’s a logical choice.

Excuse me Dan, but your defense of a friend while trying to portray me as hard right for my concern is not very commendable. A biblical Christian cannot ignore the facts that point to a reason for concern here. Some of the best liberals I know are “good people” by human description. I do not know the overall personal character of this man and have not spoken to that. However, a past continuing association with John Maxwell in ministry is a very serious matter. The information on Wickepedia is fully accurate. There is no excuse for such an association by a biblical Christian leader from whom theological and ministry discernment would be expected. If this person wishes to give an explanation it should be coupled with a statement of recognition of error and of repentance. That would correct many concerns. What does being mistreated by a church have to do with such an association? If a church mistreats us are we to flee to the heretics for comfort and then become part of their ministry? I know of no moderate or conservative evangelical that would be associated with John Maxwell. Out here in the West John MacArthur and others (even Charismatics) have spoken harshly about Maxwell. I have heard Maxwell speak and have talked with him personally. Behind his public persona he is harsh and unloving toward all conservatives and berates those who defend the inerrancy of scripture. All true biblical Christians should find the self esteem, human potential gospel of John Maxwell and Robert Schuller something that is heresy and to be avoided completely. To not do so should bring questions about a persons discernment and depth of conviction I certainly now have a red flag about this person and the ABWE board and their discernment.

The reason good schools, churches, and mission agencies often gradually go bad is because of the indifference of many. The issue here is not the raising of the so called new evangelical issue. The issue here is blatant heresy, and a Christian leaders association with it. Is the ABWE board so naive as to think that a man associated with heresy as blatant as that advocated by Maxwell and Schuller could be stated in a letter and not give an explanation? Frankly, this is a far greater issue than if a person came to the ABWE from the Billy Graham association. This goes beyond the Fundamentalist and Evangelical issues. This goes to the issue of the Gospel and liberalism of theology. It involves the self esteem gospel and universalism of Schuller and Maxwell.

Someone needs to wake up and at least give some explanations. No good ole boy nice guy speeches.

The information on Wickepedia is fully accurate.

Everyone tells me not to believe anything on Wickedpedia.

[Susan R]

The information on Wickepedia is fully accurate.

Everyone tells me not to believe anything on Wickedpedia.

I was referring to that which I had quoted from Wickepedia regarding John Maxwell which is also known by me from other sources and also generally well known and verifiable. John Maxwell is now an official visiting Pastor at the Crystal Cathedral and speaks there regularly. He was mentored by Robert Schuller and is in agreement with Schuller’s theology and philosophy of church ministry.

Bob….I’m not defending Al Cockrell because he’s an old friend. If that was the standard, then I’d be defending Mike Loftis who is also an old friend. Furthermore, it doesn’t take some sort of theological sleuth to deduce that you are indeed coming from a hard right position — your frequent postings on this board and elsewhere provide ample evidence of that. I’m also fully aware that for those of you who hold yourselves to be secondary/tertiary separatists, you’ll never be convinced by anyone of the wrong-headedness of your position.

ABWE has never been BIMI or GMU (I think that’s the acronym of the BJU missions agency.) Michael Loftis got called out by some obnoxious KJVO extremist at a large conference of pastors where we were both speaking in a very rude way (yelling out from the audience) because he accidentally read a text from something other than the KJV from his notes. He was roundly criticized by the right wing of fundamentalism repeatedly for other issues. Al Cockrell represents no shift from the doctrinal position of Loftis or the one historically held by ABWE and neither are his associations nor his separatist practices all that different. Shoot….they both hung around the likes of me. That alone should be enough to get them banned in most circles.

So you can continue to try and make some sort of ridiculous innuendo about the “direction” of ABWE because Al briefly worked for an organization founded by a man who was associated with a guy of unsound doctrine or theology if you want, but if you knew Al Cockrell and many on the ABWE board, you’d realize its a specious suggestion. During those days, Injoy had at least a half dozen former Independent Baptist pastors on their team as they were doing fund-raising for multiple Independent Baptist churches. Lest there be any confusion, Injoy’s Stewardship Branch was a business — and a big money making one at that. Would you be as suspicious if Al had worked for Bank of America?

I’m finished with this thread, but I simply wasn’t going to sit back and let you make insinuations about someone that I know to be a good man of sound doctrine simply because you want to play connect the association dots.

What you’re thinking of is GFA (Gospel Fellowship Association). IIRC it was formed when non-Baptist BJ grads (Bible Church and CMA) could no longer go out under their existing mission organizations.

Bob,

I want to push back a bit. I’m not upset. You are my brother and I appreciate the fact that you have attempted to live faithful in your corner of the vineyard. Please let me give you a different view here.

I don’t know Al Cockrell and so I have no “direct” or “first-hand” opinion as to if he is the right guy for ABWE. Of course if I understand it correctly this is a temporary assignment, and because I trust the board of ABWE and I trust Dan (in part because he is my friend and because he has proved to be a consistent Man of God), I have no trouble here.

I almost never respond to posts like yours any more in part because in large part, I’ve lost interest. For some reason I feel compelled to respond today. I’ll not make this a habbit.

Your posts remind me often of the various “witch-hunts” of bygone era’s. It’s almost like you enjoy “stirring up” a kind of panic, hysteria if not a public call for lynching. Al Cockrell would not be your kind of a fundamentalist, that’s pretty clear. Perhaps the Apostle Paul would not be your kind of fundamentalists also. He would for a time join himself in a “consultant” kind of a way with the synagogue (using the platform in the synagogue for the gospel’s sake). Of course he learned that from Jesus. Here we’re talking about a brother who in some way has served as a “consultant” with Maxwell’s group.

You seem to assume that because Al has served in some capacity as “consultant” with Maxwell that he is to be “found guilty” with all that you find theologically if not philosophically “bad” with Maxwell. I actually have enjoyed some of what Maxwell has written. I also have concerns and disagreements and so if I were a board member of ABWE I might ask a question or two. My guess is the board of ABWE because they are a sharp group have asked the questions they need to ask. My brother - using your kind of logic we would have to place IBC, Bob Jones University, Marantha and the rest of our schools that have sought accreditaton with either TRACTS or Regional accreditation, “under the bus.” Our schools that recieve accreditation will have a vareity of Protestant types connected to TRACTS who will aid in the academic evaluation process of these ministries. You’ll have Wesleyan, Presbyterians, Pentacostals, and a host of other “evangelicals” serving as a type of “consultant” to both TRACTS.

You would also have to accuse most of our FBF, GARBC, IFCA, AGC and other solid Fundamental Military Chaplains “under the bus” because of their consultation work in the military that places them in parnterships on the giving or receiving with John Maxwell and other “types.”

You would also have to accuse many of our fundamentalist’ seminary, university and Bible College Prof’s who interact with the ETS on a semi-regular basis. Some of them have even presented paper’s and have made theological if not organizational recommendations for ETS as a national organization. I promise you, there are plenty of Maxwell types and even “more left” within ETS. Does that make our guys automatically guilty by way of association? I think not!

Bob - also your note to Dan is a full of fallacies:

You assume Dan’s defense of Al is disingenuous or spurious because of his friendship with Al. This is a great example of what’s called the “fallacy of the single cause” (some call this the “fallacy of oversimplification”). This may also be something of a Red herring fallacy. Dan has responded well and to remove the clear-headed answer of Dan, you pull out “Well - he’s your friend” arguement. This may also be a fallacy of presupposition - namely that Dan’s relationship with Al disqualifies him because of the subjectivity of his view. Why cannot it not be just the opposite. Dan’s relationship actually gives him a platform of objectivity!

You seem to imply that Al reminds you of “liberals?” (I understand you are saying you don’t like Dan’s arguement that “Al is nice” - your response “liberals are nice”). You’ve missed Bob’s point - which is Bob’s confidence in Al’s character, not personality. Bob, I’m suspecious of your using “liberal” as an example here. I wonder if you are making a side point. I don’t know that, but I’m suspecious.

Please understand this - Many of us (I hope I could say “most” but I don’t know that - so I’ll say “many”) don’t agree with your “a-priori” premise. You seem to think that a historic fundamentalist can have zero connections with groups that are not as separated as you think they must be. This is another fallacy - the fallacy of the excluded middle - either you separate from everyone - or your not a good fundamentalist! It is very possible that man of God can have integrity and that alone makes it so that he is invited by places he might not totally agree with. If memory serves me right - there were many times when Dr. Bob Jones Sr. as well as other fundamentalist evangelists of that era’s would go to a church for a week of meetings that they might not have full agreement with, to accomplish various ministry that those ministries were open to. Would you also throw them “under the bus?”

Sir, I know you are passionate about a pure gospel. I know you are desperate to keep a young generation from making the same mistakes the newevangelicalism did from the 1950’s onward. I have no doubt, your motive is God-glorifying there, and I’m grateful that you desire a Biblical purity within what you understand as fundamentalism. I don’t mean this to be mean-spirited but frankly your arguements seem hallow because I know they are front-loaded with an anti-attitude anyway. It’s clear - you don’t like ABWE and you disagree with any fundamentalist ministry that I’ve called “Type B” or “Type C” because for you (like other Type A fundamentalists), it’s “all” or “nothing” when it comes to agreement/unity - disagreement/separation. Bob, I hope you’ll be active for Christ’ Kingdom in ways other than tearing down groups like ABWE or brothers like Al. They have done much for Christ’s body while remaining true to the gospel vis-a-vis eccuminicalism. Speaking only for myself and no one else here at SI, your view’s at best seem schismatic.

My fear is you start off with the assumption that if a ministry is different they are disobedient. The Scriptures depict a different approach. The Scriptures paint a view that if another ministry loves the same Jesus, preaches the same Gospel and believes the same doctrine I can have some level of cooperation even if they are different in some level of methodology. (A few thoughts from the shadow of the hot AZ desert! The Lawn 4000 is inside today! :) )

Straight Ahead!

jt