"Marriage is the central crucible for accepting and fulfilling the adult responsibilities of work, parenthood, and the full acceptance of mature responsibilities."
In conclusion, there seems to be a holdover idea from 10-20 years ago that marriage must be done ASAP, and if not, there’s a problem somewhere lurking under the surface.In light of the article prompting the discussion, the rise in promiscuity and such is a factor here. Tom, I imagine that doesn’t apply to you- but the fact is that many “singles” are enjoying “benefits” outside the bonds of matrimony. It seems to me that one of Mohler’s points is that if “benefits” are to be enjoyed, let’s make sure they are enjoyed legitimately. Another matter to consider is reproductive capabilities (especially for women). The trend of waiting longer isn’t necessarily a positive thing there, either.
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s universally wrong to wait. That being said, I have heard- especially from single Christian women- that finding Christian men is not easy. If you can say that the issues being discussed don’t fit you- fine. It’s between you and the Lord. But there is no doubt that national trends indicate that many people- Christians included- delay marriage. So if you don’t need to hear the things being said, certainly some out there should.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
As far as I can tell, what I’m reading here is that there can be no middle ground
I don’t think you’ve considered the comments you quoted in context. I also said “we could be causing many a young person to stumble by making marriage a primary goal and treating singlehood as some kind of failure. They should be enjoying their state with contentment and joy just as a married person should be happy and fulfilled in their relationship. If God has marriage in mind for them, and they are not sure about their ‘calling’ as it were, better they figure that out on their knees.” as well as “those characteristics that make one ‘ready’ for marriage should be developed in every person regardless- what virtues are only needed in marriage but not in any other facet of life?”
Much of my post was in reference to modern ideas of ‘seeking’ a spouse, and the comment you quoted was what in my experience most people mean when they say “I’m not ready for marriage”. They are saying that they are not financially responsible, they are not ready to give up selfish desires, and they don’t think they are ready to commit to one person for the rest of their lives. These are all characteristics of someone who is immature, not someone who is unclear about God’s will or content to wait. To say that one is not ‘ready’ for marriage because God has not revealed to them whether their calling is to marriage or singlehood/celibacy is a legitimate reason, but using the the phrase “I’m not ready” carries a much different connotation than “I’m ready, but waiting”.
There is certainly not any hostility on my part towards single people or the state of being single, especially since I for one did not spring from my mother’s womb with a ring on my finger, and I was hoping to be one of those that God did not intend for marriage. But here I am, 22 years and four kids later, rejoicing in God’s wisdom and glad I followed Him instead.
[Greg Linscott] So if you don’t need to hear the things being said, certainly some out there should.And you’re absolutely right, of course. It’s just that after four or five readthroughs of all that’s been said here, as well as three times through Mohler’s article, I came away thinking that the general scope of what was being said was much broader than apparently was intended. Susan, thanks for the clarification on what you were commenting on. I do read a bit of a difference knowing that. I guess, though, when I read “ready” I think that something’s planned or in the works. So I would then say I’m not “ready” to get married, for the simple lack of someone to marry. In a similar sense, I’m “not ready” to change jobs. Not because I don’t think I could handle the job search, the interviews, and waiting by a phone for several weeks, but because I don’t feel any particular leading to do so and that, with the economy as it is, it would be unwise to change jobs. Perhaps this is the source of the broader stroke I saw in what you said than what you intended.
The reason I took the approach I did above, though, was because I don’t think marriage is really the issue here, and so I spoke out against what I felt to be the same old arguments for early marriage and the usual digs to follow at singles in the crowd. Those arguments still stand, even if the impetus for them turned out to be me reading a bit too much into what was said in some places. Regnerus (and I guess Mohler, as he seems to be in general agreement) seems to be smokescreening the heart of the matter by deflecting the blame on late marriage. This is perhaps too condensed, but the statement is raised: “Too many unmarried Christians are failing morally these days. How do we stop this?” And the answer is, “Teach them about marriage and to get married early.” Regnerus says the problem is that young Christian adults feel the wait-time fore sex is too long. If they are constantly being bombarded with popular media portrayal of sex, then sure, they’re going to get impatient and find ways of dealing with it on their own. But preaching Sunday on the concept of marriage as it relates to Christ and the church isn’t going to help on Monday when they’re watching TV after work. Now, if you impress them with the need to marry early, you’ve stopped them from outward immorality (probably) by ensuring they have a proper outlet for their desires. (Yes, I know I’m being simplistic here, and that marriage is much, much more than that.) But the “I want what I want now and it doesn’t matter how I get it” part of the problem hasn’t been addressed at all, so really…you’re reducing the statistics of immorality but you’ve left the heart issues that [em] lead to[/em] immorality untouched.
Does that make sense at all?
don’t you think a lot of this stems from industrialism and labor laws? I think it does more than we know.
if you’re not legally allowed to work until what, 15? or 16? then you are legally a CHILD. And the educational system (legally required until one finishes high school at about 18, right?) now goes on for years and years, giving the impression that one should not marry until “school” is done, which is what, 22 at the earliest usually, if going to college, which is also considered essential in an industrial society.
living in an agricultural society/family (usually) makes a kid a pretty valuable worker at a very young age. the whole school/work legal system of our instrustialized society doesn’t. parents have to work extra hard to give their child an adultness and adult readiness before finishing high shcool. Youth groups often follow suit—and it’s expensive sending your kids to all the recreational activities.
i think this is a significant piece of the puzzle.
however, I will also say that I am glad I didn’t marry at 18. i was a very different person mentally at 18 then at 22 or 24. and it really wasn’t dependent on my parents. it was my own immature ideas of what i should be and what a husband and marriage should be like.
if you’re not legally allowed to work until what, 15? or 16? then you are legally a CHILD. And the educational system (legally required until one finishes high school at about 18, right?) now goes on for years and years, giving the impression that one should not marry until “school” is done, which is what, 22 at the earliest usually, if going to college, which is also considered essential in an industrial society.
living in an agricultural society/family (usually) makes a kid a pretty valuable worker at a very young age. the whole school/work legal system of our instrustialized society doesn’t. parents have to work extra hard to give their child an adultness and adult readiness before finishing high shcool. Youth groups often follow suit—and it’s expensive sending your kids to all the recreational activities.
i think this is a significant piece of the puzzle.
however, I will also say that I am glad I didn’t marry at 18. i was a very different person mentally at 18 then at 22 or 24. and it really wasn’t dependent on my parents. it was my own immature ideas of what i should be and what a husband and marriage should be like.
Mounty, I have lots to say, but don’t really know where to start, so I will attempt to keep it simple.
I agree that at the heart of pre-marital sex is a heart issue. I also think we would agree that if you have actually been called to singleness, then the article isn’t directly applicable to you. The article is written for those singles who for whatever reason, good or bad, have started a physical relationship yet never follow through with marriage. I think I Cor 7:36ff is very applicable to this group of people. Notice what it says, “if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin.” (virgin, IMO, could be equated to your GF/BF/Fiance/etc) Does this not sound like the singles they are describing? What does Paul prescribe, “let them marry.” Or take I Cor 7:9, “if they [single ladies] cannot exercise self-control, let them marry.” So I think the notion that it is wrong for a couple to get married simply because they cannot control themselves goes against scripture, seeing that Paul in two cases tells people to marry if you have no self control.
A little redundant, but in addition, these singles described are not following what is prescribed by Paul in I Cor 7:36ff. If they are behaving improperly toward their significant other, then they should be doing what Paul prescribed, getting married. They are also not following what is prescribed in I Cor 7:9, that they should marry.
I have more to say about why they have singled out late marriages, but it is getting late.
I agree that at the heart of pre-marital sex is a heart issue. I also think we would agree that if you have actually been called to singleness, then the article isn’t directly applicable to you. The article is written for those singles who for whatever reason, good or bad, have started a physical relationship yet never follow through with marriage. I think I Cor 7:36ff is very applicable to this group of people. Notice what it says, “if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin.” (virgin, IMO, could be equated to your GF/BF/Fiance/etc) Does this not sound like the singles they are describing? What does Paul prescribe, “let them marry.” Or take I Cor 7:9, “if they [single ladies] cannot exercise self-control, let them marry.” So I think the notion that it is wrong for a couple to get married simply because they cannot control themselves goes against scripture, seeing that Paul in two cases tells people to marry if you have no self control.
A little redundant, but in addition, these singles described are not following what is prescribed by Paul in I Cor 7:36ff. If they are behaving improperly toward their significant other, then they should be doing what Paul prescribed, getting married. They are also not following what is prescribed in I Cor 7:9, that they should marry.
I have more to say about why they have singled out late marriages, but it is getting late.
[Anne Sokol] don’t you think a lot of this stems from industrialism and labor laws? I think it does more than we know.
if you’re not legally allowed to work until what, 15? or 16? then you are legally a CHILD. And the educational system (legally required until one finishes high school at about 18, right?) now goes on for years and years, giving the impression that one should not marry until “school” is done, which is what, 22 at the earliest usually, if going to college, which is also considered essential in an industrial society…
i think this is a significant piece of the puzzle.
I agree- the advent of mandatory public education until age 18 combined with child labor laws(which were a good thing, mind you) have had some unintended consequences, resulting in the http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1018089,00.html kidult . This cultural phenomenon has seeped into churches, and Bro. Mohler’s article is not aimed at those who are ready for marriage and waiting on God, but those who are actively putting off marriage because with marriage comes responsibilities- and it is the responsibilities that they are not ready for. Hence the engaging in premarital sex, which naturally follows, because when someone is irresponsible in one area, the likelihood of being irresponsible in other areas increases exponentially. If you read the article thoroughly, you will see the use of the words “putting off” and “delay”, which define the aim of the article.
I also believe that Bro. Mohler and Mark Regnerus are arguing for a more reverent attitude about marriage. You only have to watch a successful sitcom about family to see that marriage is a mockery, when for a Christian, it is (or should be) a picture of the Gospel and a reminder of things to come. We’ve allowed marriage and children to become a joke, and brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Daniel, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t get married just because they can’t control themselves. I agree that’s what Paul says, pretty explicitly. What I am saying is that it shouldn’t end there. That doesn’t solve the problem. That takes care of a statistic, but follow-up is probably needed to ensure that this root problem doesn’t manifest itself some other way or in the same way later on down the road. The original article seems to stop the solution at marriage, and my point is that’s too soon to call the problem fixed.
I don’t have time at this moment, but that is why I explicitly stated at the beginning, “at the heart of pre-marital sex is a heart issue.” I don’t deny this.
I wish I could have married early, but I echo Mounty’s thoughts — there is NO WAY I would have been ready for a healthy marriage relationship just out of college. In fact, after going through some biblical counseling and really looking at God’s conviction in my life, I can honestly say I’ve probably only been ready for marriage — i.e., a person who could make a marriage work — since I turned 30 (I’m now 31). Still, that doesn’t make it any less painful. It honestly gets more painful every year I’m alone and (practically) everyone around me gets married and has kids. But I am so grateful to God that He didn’t let me have what I wanted. I feel like I’d be divorced right now without His protection in my life.
So I thank Him so much for protecting me, even when I didn’t want Him to, if that makes sense. But simultaneously, I hurt, because I think, “Why not now, God?” I think I have a realistic view of marriage — I realize it’s going to be HARD WORK and God will use it for my sanctification. But I guess He’s using my singleness for my sanctification right now :) Meanwhile, like Susan said, I’m trying to be content in my life while focusing completely on Christ. “The things of this world will grow strangely dim” and all that. Still, marriage is a good thing to want, so I don’t feel guilty for wanting it.
So I thank Him so much for protecting me, even when I didn’t want Him to, if that makes sense. But simultaneously, I hurt, because I think, “Why not now, God?” I think I have a realistic view of marriage — I realize it’s going to be HARD WORK and God will use it for my sanctification. But I guess He’s using my singleness for my sanctification right now :) Meanwhile, like Susan said, I’m trying to be content in my life while focusing completely on Christ. “The things of this world will grow strangely dim” and all that. Still, marriage is a good thing to want, so I don’t feel guilty for wanting it.
Discussion