The Rapture Of The Church

I believe the Holy Scripture teaches the translation of the church before judgment begins to fall, when the Lord Jesus Christ returns “in the air” (not on the earth yet). I have a paper on this subject which gives a comprehensive view of this, but it is too long to be allowed here, I am told. One can write me if they would like to see it and I might be able to send it. Look up always!

- BobL

aninterface@hotmail.com

When Jesus appears the second time: 1 John 3:2. Philippians 3:20, 21. Matthew 25:27-31. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-19. Titus 2:13. Hebrews 9:12 “… entered in once …”, 28. Revelation 20:5. John 5:29. John 6:40. etc.

Also all the saved dead will be risen before any of the living saved are changed. And just as Christ died once for all, He entered in to heaven as the intercessor once. When He leaves heaven to come the seconded time [the first time being for His life, death and resurrection, so the second time] He brings all the saints with Him to be resurrected, and those who are yet alive will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

This is just a quick overview. Please ask your questions. I will gladly explain as I have come to understand this.

I typed 25, the reference should be Matthew 24:27-31 in regard to the second coming and visable appearing of Christ to rapture His elect.

[Paul S] When Jesus appears the second time: 1 John 3:2. Philippians 3:20, 21. Matthew 25:27-31. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-19. Titus 2:13. Hebrews 9:12 “… entered in once …”, 28. Revelation 20:5. John 5:29. John 6:40. etc.

Also all the saved dead will be risen before any of the living saved are changed. And just as Christ died once for all, He entered in to heaven as the intercessor once. When He leaves heaven to come the seconded time [the first time being for His life, death and resurrection, so the second time] He brings all the saints with Him to be resurrected, and those who are yet alive will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

This is just a quick overview. Please ask your questions. I will gladly explain as I have come to understand this.

I may have misunderstood your ref. to 1 Cor. 15, but I believe that is the hope for the church, which is the translation of the church when the Lord comes “in the air” for His saints —not on the earth (same as 1 Thess. 4:15-17). Is that what you were saying? We read of the Lord’s return to the earth in judgment to vanguish His enemies and establish His kingdom in 1 Thess. 5: 2-4 and in 2 Thess. 1:7-10. This, of course, is the distinction between the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of the Lord”. One is “in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” and the other afterward is to the earth with His saints for judgment and to reign.

I just wanted to clarify this, for many Christians are confused over this.

- BobL

[BobL]

[Paul S] When Jesus appears the second time: 1 John 3:2. Philippians 3:20, 21. Matthew 2[4]:27-31. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-19. Titus 2:13. Hebrews 9:12 “… entered in once …”, 28. Revelation 20:5. John 5:29. John 6:40. etc.

Also all the saved dead will be risen before any of the living saved are changed. And just as Christ died once for all, He entered in to heaven as the intercessor once. When He leaves heaven to come the seconded time [the first time being for His life, death and resurrection, so the second time] He brings all the saints with Him to be resurrected, and those who are yet alive will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

This is just a quick overview. Please ask your questions. I will gladly explain as I have come to understand this.

I may have misunderstood your ref. to 1 Cor. 15, but I believe that is the hope for the church, which is the translation of the church when the Lord comes “in the air” for His saints —not on the earth (same as 1 Thess. 4:15-17). Is that what you were saying? We read of the Lord’s return to the earth in judgment to vanguish His enemies and establish His kingdom in 1 Thess. 5: 2-4 and in 2 Thess. 1:7-10. This, of course, is the distinction between the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of the Lord”. One is “in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” and the other afterward is to the earth with His saints for judgment and to reign.

I just wanted to clarify this, for many Christians are confused over this.

- BobL

In my understanding the “day of Christ” and the “day of the Lord” are the same day. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 is reference to the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. And the same as Matthew 24:30, 31 and 1 John 3:2 and Philippians 3:20-21. That all the dead in Christ are risen prior to the yet living believers to be changed in the last day, as in John 6:40. The appearing of the Lord. Titus 2:13. Christ is the Lord.

Either one affirms all the dead saints are raised in the last day at the appearing of the Lord prior to all the yet living saints to be changed or one denies this. This is how I have come to understand the teachings regarding the rapture, “be caught up,” 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

[The word “rapture” refers to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “be caught up” from the Latin translation rapiemur for αρπαγησομεθα in the

Greek text.]

[Paul S] [In my understanding the “day of Christ” and the “day of the Lord” are the same day. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 is reference to the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. And the same as Matthew 24:30, 31 and 1 John 3:2 and Philippians 3:20-21. That all the dead in Christ are risen prior to the yet living believers to be changed in the last day, as in John 6:40. The appearing of the Lord. Titus 2:13. Christ is the Lord.

Either one affirms all the dead saints are raised in the last day at the appearing of the Lord prior to all the yet living saints to be changed or one denies this. This is how I have come to understand the teachings regarding the rapture, “be caught up,” 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

[The word “rapture” refers to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “be caught up” from the Latin translation rapiemur for αρπαγησομεθα in the

Greek text.]

My inclination to believe in a pre-trib rapture in the air, and then a post-trib return of Christ to the earth stems in part from my understanding of something that happens later during the Millenium. At the end of the Millenium, there will be a rebellion of a multitude of people. This is recorded in Rev 20:7-9,

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

I don’t see as how there would be any people on earth to rebel at the end of the Millenium if the Millenium starts out with ALL the living and dead believers at the time being given their glorified, incorruptible bodies. Would incorruptible people be able to be deceived by Satan and rebel? The pre-trib position has every Christian living prior to the Tribulation being changed, but the people who become saints during the 7 year tribulation, and survive til the end, would go alive into the Millenium and have children for 1000 years, and these children would then be able to be deceived.

I’ve never been able to figure out, from the just-one-coming perspective, who it is that rebels at the end of the Millenium.

[] Kevin MillerI’ve never been able to figure out, from the just-one-coming perspective, who it is that rebels at the end of the Millenium.

I don’t know what Paul S believes, but many who believe (as I do) in a single second coming event, also believe that the “Day of the Lord” is the same as the “Last Day” when Jesus comes to judge all the living and the dead. Therefore, there is no millenial kingdom after the second coming, but a New Heaven and New Earth. See the verses below:

[10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

(2 Peter 3:10 ESV)

[12] waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! [13] But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

(2 Peter 3:12-13 ESV)

[7] and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels [8] in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV)

The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

(Matthew 13:39-43 ESV)

[Kevin Miller]

[Paul S] [In my understanding the “day of Christ” and the “day of the Lord” are the same day. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 is reference to the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. And the same as Matthew 24:30, 31 and 1 John 3:2 and Philippians 3:20-21. That all the dead in Christ are risen prior to the yet living believers to be changed in the last day, as in John 6:40. The appearing of the Lord. Titus 2:13. Christ is the Lord.

Either one affirms all the dead saints are raised in the last day at the appearing of the Lord prior to all the yet living saints to be changed or one denies this. This is how I have come to understand the teachings regarding the rapture, “be caught up,” 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

[The word “rapture” refers to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “be caught up” from the Latin translation rapiemur for αρπαγησομεθα in the

Greek text.]

My inclination to believe in a pre-trib rapture in the air, …

That is fine. So how do you come to that conclusion, that the “first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5) takes place before the tribulation? (Matthew 24:29. Revelation 7:14.) Since none of the living saints will be changed until all the dead saints are raised. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Matthew 24:30-31. 1 John 3:2. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.)

… and then a post-trib return of Christ to the earth stems in part from my understanding of something that happens later during the Millenium. At the end of the Millenium, there will be a rebellion of a multitude of people. This is recorded in Rev 20:7-9,

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

I don’t see as how there would be any people on earth to rebel at the end of the Millenium if the Millenium starts out with ALL the living and dead believers at the time being given their glorified, incorruptible bodies. Would incorruptible people be able to be deceived by Satan and rebel? The pre-trib position has every Christian living prior to the Tribulation being changed, but the people who become saints during the 7 year tribulation, and survive til the end, would go alive into the Millenium and have children for 1000 years, and these children would then be able to be deceived.

I’ve never been able to figure out, from the just-one-coming perspective, who it is that rebels at the end of the Millenium.

It is my understanding those are humans who were not saved at the time of the day of the Lord, and are a remnant who were not ran through the Lord’s wine press at the out pouring of God’s wrath. They are the one’s the resurrected tribulation saints will rule. (Revelation 20:4.)

At the end those of them which turn on the resurrected saints will become ashes under their feet. (Revelation 20:9. Malachi 3:3.)

At the end those of them which turn on the resurrected saints will become ashes under their feet. (Revelation 20:9. Malachi 3:3.)

The reference was suppose to be Malachi 4:3.

[mattmo812]

[] Kevin MillerI’ve never been able to figure out, from the just-one-coming perspective, who it is that rebels at the end of the Millenium.

I don’t know what Paul S believes, but many who believe (as I do) in a single second coming event, also believe that the “Day of the Lord” is the same as the “Last Day” when Jesus comes to judge all the living and the dead. Therefore, there is no millenial kingdom after the second coming, but a New Heaven and New Earth.

Then how do you interpret the 1000 year time period described in Revelation 20:1-3 in which Satan is bound and does not deceive anyone for 1000 years?

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Do you believe Satan has already been cast into the Lake of Fire and is not deceiving anyone? That would conflict with the verse that tells us Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Do we still have to wait for the time when Satan will be bound and then wait another thousand years for the Second Coming and the resurrection to happen?

[Paul S] It is my understanding those are humans who were not saved at the time of the day of the Lord, and are a remnant who were not ran through the Lord’s wine press at the out pouring of God’s wrath. They are the one’s the resurrected tribulation saints will rule. (Revelation 20:4.)

Can you show me a verse about the Lord’s wine press that leaves some unsaved people outside of God’s wrath? I thought all unsaved people would face God’s wrath at the coming of the Lord.

[Kevin Miller]

[Paul S] It is my understanding those are humans who were not saved at the time of the day of the Lord, and are a remnant who were not ran through the Lord’s wine press at the out pouring of God’s wrath. They are the one’s the resurrected tribulation saints will rule. (Revelation 20:4.)

Can you show me a verse about the Lord’s wine press that leaves some unsaved people outside of God’s wrath? I thought all unsaved people would face God’s wrath at the coming of the Lord.

It is my understanding that when the Lord comes He will take one in His wrath in judgement and forgive one. The one’s He forgives in His wrath, are them who the resurrected saints will rule during the millennium.(Revelation 20:4, 5.)

Matthew 24:36-46,

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man] , no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [were] , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

[The word translated “left” is the same word, but in a different part of speech in the contexts, that is translated “forgive.”]

So it is my understanding at the end of the tribulation 1/2 of them that remain will be brought into the millennium to be ruled by the saints.

It is then the interpretation those who are taken go to God’s wine press.

Revelation 14:13-20,

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

Isaiah 63:3,

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Revelation 19:13,

And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

[Paul S]

[Kevin Miller]

[Paul S] It is my understanding those are humans who were not saved at the time of the day of the Lord, and are a remnant who were not ran through the Lord’s wine press at the out pouring of God’s wrath. They are the one’s the resurrected tribulation saints will rule. (Revelation 20:4.)

Can you show me a verse about the Lord’s wine press that leaves some unsaved people outside of God’s wrath? I thought all unsaved people would face God’s wrath at the coming of the Lord.

It is my understanding that when the Lord comes He will take one in His wrath in judgement and forgive one. The one’s He forgives in His wrath, are them who the resurrected saints will rule during the millennium.(Revelation 20:4, 5.)

Matthew 24:36-46,

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man] , no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [were] , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

[The word translated “left” is the same word, but in a different part of speech in the contexts, that is translated “forgive.”]

So it is my understanding at the end of the tribulation 1/2 of them that remain will be brought into the millennium to be ruled by the saints.

It is then the interpretation those who are taken go to God’s wine press.

Revelation 14:13-20,

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

Isaiah 63:3,

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Revelation 19:13,

And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

That is basically the same interpretation of Matthew 24 that I as a pre-trib person have been taught. Before the tribulation, the church age saints are taken from the earth up to the air, but in Matthew 24, it is the wicked that are taken from the earth and saved people are left. The saved people who are left would be the ones who get saved during the tribulation. If you believe the rapture happens at this same time as the wicked being taken from the earth, then you have BOTH saved people and wicked people being taken from the earth, and some nebuluos group of … who exactly? being taken alive into the Millenium.

[Kevin Miller]

That is basically the same interpretation of Matthew 24 that I as a pre-trib person have been taught. Before the tribulation, the church age saints are taken from the earth up to the air, but in Matthew 24, it is the wicked that are taken from the earth and saved people are left. The saved people who are left would be the ones who get saved during the tribulation. If you believe the rapture happens at this same time as the wicked being taken from the earth, then you have BOTH saved people and wicked people being taken from the earth, and some nebuluos group of … who exactly? being taken alive into the Millennium.

Well there are two key differences. One, the taking of the wicked into God’s wine press of wrath in my understanding takes place after the tribulation (persecution) of those days. And the one’s left (forgiven) are not saved. Since the saved believers were changed in the rapture after all the dead in Christ were raised.

What I would like to know from you, how do you understand from scripture, get the rapture before the tribulation? [I was taught the pre-triib position, and have the books “Things to Come” and “The Rapture Question.” It was the latter book which, BTW, gives 50 arguments for a pre-trib rapture. which changed my mind to post-trig. Both writers defend the pre-trib position.]

[Paul S] Well there are two key differences. One, the taking of the wicked into God’s wine press of wrath in my understanding takes place after the tribulation (persecution) of those days. And the one’s left (forgiven) are not saved. Since the saved believers were changed in the rapture after all the dead in Christ were raised.

If the saved people are all changed in the rapture, and the only people experiencing God’s wine press are the unsaved, then what criteria does God use for determining which unsaved person He takes in judgment and which unsaved person He forgives and leaves on earth to enter the Millenium? It doesn’t seem that the criteria can be faith, since people with faith would have been raptured. Are some of the unsaved people more wicked than the others? Is the choosing just random? Why would Christ have warned the people about this choosing in Matthew 24 if the choosing was just random?

What I would like to know from you, how do you understand from scripture, get the rapture before the tribulation? [I was taught the pre-triib position, and have the books “Things to Come” and “The Rapture Question.”

I have “The Rapture Question” as well. I think the author does a pretty good job of using Scripture to support the Pre-trib position. You may not agree with some of the interpretations used, but the author does use Scripture. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned I have an “inclination to believe in a pre-trib rapture.” I used the word “inclination” deliberately, since I am no longer as adamant about it as I was when I was first taught it. I have since learned that proponents of the other viewpoints have logical reasons for believing as they do. I don’t necessarily agree with their interpretation of the rapture and tribulation verses, but I don’t entirely dismiss their interpretaion either, as I used to do. One of the reasons I have been asking you about the people who enter the Millenium is because my non-understanding of the post-trib perspective in that regard makes me more liable to dismiss post-trib as a possibility. I can’t say the logic of the post-trib position is clear in my mind yet, but I really appreciate your interaction here. I actually would be willing to shift my “inclination” based on things I learn, but I admit that it wouldn’t be an easy shift.

It was the latter book which, BTW, gives 50 arguments for a pre-trib rapture. which changed my mind to post-trib. Both writers defend the pre-trib position.]

So which issues were the most compelling in your decision to change your mind?

[Kevin Miller]

[Paul S] Well there are two key differences. One, the taking of the wicked into God’s wine press of wrath in my understanding takes place after the tribulation (persecution) of those days. And the one’s left (forgiven) are not saved. Since the saved believers were changed in the rapture after all the dead in Christ were raised.

If the saved people are all changed in the rapture, and the only people experiencing God’s wine press are the unsaved, then what criteria does God use for determining which unsaved person He takes in judgment and which unsaved person He forgives and leaves on earth to enter the Millennium? It doesn’t seem that the criteria can be faith, since people with faith would have been raptured. Are some of the unsaved people more wicked than the others? Is the choosing just random? Why would Christ have warned the people about this choosing in Matthew 24 if the choosing was just random?

From the text “one taken and one left” I would see it as literally being random. 50-50. But if I was to speculate and conjecture, my guess would be the ones who’s name have been removed from the book of life since the foundation of the world, having received the mark of the beast, woud be the ones taken, and the ones whose names have not yet been removed from the book would be left.

What I would like to know from you, how do you understand from scripture, get the rapture before the tribulation? [I was taught the pre-triib position, and have the books “Things to Come” and “The Rapture Question.”

I have “The Rapture Question” as well. I think the author does a pretty good job of using Scripture to support the Pre-trib position. You may not agree with some of the interpretations used, but the author does use Scripture. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned I have an “inclination to believe in a pre-trib rapture.” I used the word “inclination” deliberately, since I am no longer as adamant about it as I was when I was first taught it. I have since learned that proponents of the other viewpoints have logical reasons for believing as they do. I don’t necessarily agree with their interpretation of the rapture and tribulation verses, but I don’t entirely dismiss their interpretaion either, as I used to do. One of the reasons I have been asking you about the people who enter the Millenium is because my non-understanding of the post-trib perspective in that regard makes me more liable to dismiss post-trib as a possibility. I can’t say the logic of the post-trib position is clear in my mind yet, but I really appreciate your interaction here. I actually would be willing to shift my “inclination” based on things I learn, but I admit that it wouldn’t be an easy shift.

It was the latter book which, BTW, gives 50 arguments for a pre-trib rapture. which changed my mind to post-trib. Both writers defend the pre-trib position.]

So which issues were the most compelling in your decision to change your mind?

Two things, one the fact presented that the post-trib view was historical as opposed to the pre-trib view being more recent. And if my memory serves me right, the omission of any comment on 1 John 3:2. Where it teaches, “when He shall appear, we shall be like Him.” Being understood by me, to mean, that the living saints will be changed when Christ appears, which is the second coming. There are other considerations as well, but those two were, if I remember correctly, where my chief reasons his book, The Rapure Queston, changed my mind.

[Paul S] From the text “one taken and one left” I would see it as literally being random. 50-50. But if I was to speculate and conjecture, my guess would be the ones who’s name have been removed from the book of life since the foundation of the world, having received the mark of the beast, woud be the ones taken, and the ones whose names have not yet been removed from the book would be left.

Ah yes, the “mark of the beast” would provide a logical distinction. In my viewpoint, I believe people get saved during the tribulation, but only if they have not received the mark of the beast. So there could be some people at the end of the trib who have not gotten saved and have not received the mark, and they would be a separate group from those who had received the mark.

Two things, one the fact presented that the post-trib view was historical as opposed to the pre-trib view being more recent.

I can see the logic to that, though I would also say that Catholic understandings of Scripture are very historical and they are not always correct.

And if my memory serves me right, the omission of any comment on 1 John 3:2. Where it teaches, “when He shall appear, we shall be like Him.” Being understood by me, to mean, that the living saints will be changed when Christ appears, which is the second coming.

And if one believes that the second coming happens in stages, then this verse could apply to the first stage, when Christ appears in the air.

[Kevin Miller]

And if one believes that the second coming happens in stages, then this verse could apply to the first stage, when Christ appears in the air.

Jesus having entered once into the holy place, heaven itself to be the intercessor, would not be appeaing in stages. Also not a single living saint would be changed prior to all saints having died were rased first. The first resurrection includes the saints from during the time of the mark of the beast (see Revelation 20:4, 5.)