Why its difficult to work with a church
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This board hardly has any activity so will give this post a shot. I may be wasting my time, but will try.
There are many reasons why I have difficulty working with a church and why Para church is better. For one many of them appear very opinionated and biased and just plain unfair. I do a bit of evangelism and notice that every single church has their own opinions on tracts, and styles of tracts. Some churches dislike tracts, some love them, and they all have a preference. In my church they have their preference, but in the Fundamentalist churches they have theirs. As an evangelist I have seen pro’s and con’s of various tracts and utilize at least 7 different tract ministries. I almost got a Masters Degree from a seminary, and have a BA in Church Education. In my church a new joe has showed up who does not even have a BA or been to Bible College. Yet he has a attractable personality, and the leader loves him. He was teaching long before he held a membership (something not Biblical) and know he dictates the tracts that our church uses. I tried to suggest some other tracts but everyone ignores me. One of the tracts he has introduced does not even give a gospel presentation yet no one questions it. I spoke about it, but everyone ignores me. This tract gives no gospel presentation at all, but is all about fun and games. Someone will read that tract and not even know that he needs to repent, or does not even know what sin is.
So you see why I have difficulty working with a church? I work alone and have started my own para church ministry. I get enough emails and calls to keep me busy. Some criticize me because I do not operate the way they do, but I usually ignore all their criticism unless they can prove their case by a strong argument, and deep exegesis, which sadly few take the time to make, or lack the ability to make a strong argument.
I hate it that I work apart from the church, but I am just so sick and tired of the way that most operate. I mean if its unbiblical then they have a case, but sadly most of its just a preference thing. I try and use the tracts that are Biblical and I realize that the tract ministry my church uses is not the best in every category contrary to what they believe.
John
There are many reasons why I have difficulty working with a church and why Para church is better. For one many of them appear very opinionated and biased and just plain unfair. I do a bit of evangelism and notice that every single church has their own opinions on tracts, and styles of tracts. Some churches dislike tracts, some love them, and they all have a preference. In my church they have their preference, but in the Fundamentalist churches they have theirs. As an evangelist I have seen pro’s and con’s of various tracts and utilize at least 7 different tract ministries. I almost got a Masters Degree from a seminary, and have a BA in Church Education. In my church a new joe has showed up who does not even have a BA or been to Bible College. Yet he has a attractable personality, and the leader loves him. He was teaching long before he held a membership (something not Biblical) and know he dictates the tracts that our church uses. I tried to suggest some other tracts but everyone ignores me. One of the tracts he has introduced does not even give a gospel presentation yet no one questions it. I spoke about it, but everyone ignores me. This tract gives no gospel presentation at all, but is all about fun and games. Someone will read that tract and not even know that he needs to repent, or does not even know what sin is.
So you see why I have difficulty working with a church? I work alone and have started my own para church ministry. I get enough emails and calls to keep me busy. Some criticize me because I do not operate the way they do, but I usually ignore all their criticism unless they can prove their case by a strong argument, and deep exegesis, which sadly few take the time to make, or lack the ability to make a strong argument.
I hate it that I work apart from the church, but I am just so sick and tired of the way that most operate. I mean if its unbiblical then they have a case, but sadly most of its just a preference thing. I try and use the tracts that are Biblical and I realize that the tract ministry my church uses is not the best in every category contrary to what they believe.
John
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[jwolf6589] This board hardly has any activity so will give this post a shot. I may be wasting my time, but will try.Hmmm opinionated eh? However, let me read the rest of the post but the first part was intriguing.
There are many reasons why I have difficulty working with a church and why Para church is better. For one many of them appear very opinionated…
[jwolf6589] He was teaching long before he held a membership (something not Biblical)i’m having a hard time thinking of any verses about this… so could you help a guy out?
[jwolf6589] I work alone and have started my own para church ministry.and what’s the biblical support for that?
sounds more like you just have trouble working through a legitimate authority structure. you have strong opinions and complaints against church leaders, but you’re venting them here where no one can do anything about it instead of building your case about these issues with the church leaders and accepting their decision.
if you live near any decent-sized city, you ought to be able to find at least one church you can work under.
[ChrisC]This phrase was one that struck me as well when i was reading the post. It may be unbiblical for a non-member to teach a class or it may be Biblical. My point is that a church DOES have Biblical mandates it must follow, whather or not this is one of them. A para church organization does not have the same sort of Biblical mandates as a church, so of course it is not going to seem as “opinionated.”[jwolf6589] He was teaching long before he held a membership (something not Biblical)i’m having a hard time thinking of any verses about this… so could you help a guy out?
It’s curious to see that your involvement in a church seems to hinge on their evangelistic preferences… or am I reading too much into your post?
Of course churches are going to have preferences, but as long as those methodologies aren’t unBiblical (as opposed to extra-Biblical) I think it is a good exercise for our own characters to learn to work within the parameters that leadership has set. I’ve never been in a church that could satisfy everyone’s idea of what is best- that’s why there is leadership and followship.
I also don’t think that two wrongs make a right- the Lord established the local church as the means of equipping and edifying the saints, and it behooves us to meet that requirement before establishing a ministry.
Of course churches are going to have preferences, but as long as those methodologies aren’t unBiblical (as opposed to extra-Biblical) I think it is a good exercise for our own characters to learn to work within the parameters that leadership has set. I’ve never been in a church that could satisfy everyone’s idea of what is best- that’s why there is leadership and followship.
I also don’t think that two wrongs make a right- the Lord established the local church as the means of equipping and edifying the saints, and it behooves us to meet that requirement before establishing a ministry.
You criticize the church for being opinionated about the tracts and yet you are obviously very opinionated about them as well.
You think it’s unbiblical for a person to teach in a church before becoming a member, but yet you’re not a member of a church at all.
Can you help me out here?
You think it’s unbiblical for a person to teach in a church before becoming a member, but yet you’re not a member of a church at all.
Can you help me out here?
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
John,
I have read many of your post and feel you are just looking for a group who will listen to you.
I have read many of your post and feel you are just looking for a group who will listen to you.
This board hardly has any activity so will give this post a shot. I may be wasting my time, but will try.Be faithful with such things as you have and God will send you more. If you care about people, try pastoring some of them instead preaching and running to the next group.
[Susan R] It’s curious to see that your involvement in a church seems to hinge on their evangelistic preferences… or am I reading too much into your post?Well no one ever said anything about me being rebellious or causing waves. I just do not always go with them. I have done evangelism with them a number of times, but lately my new job has gotten in the way. Well technically I could make it but have chosen not to do so the last 2-3 weeks. But I still go to church there.
Of course churches are going to have preferences, but as long as those methodologies aren’t unBiblical (as opposed to extra-Biblical) I think it is a good exercise for our own characters to learn to work within the parameters that leadership has set. I’ve never been in a church that could satisfy everyone’s idea of what is best- that’s why there is leadership and followship.
I also don’t think that two wrongs make a right- the Lord established the local church as the means of equipping and edifying the saints, and it behooves us to meet that requirement before establishing a ministry.
I have thought about leaving, but at the moment cant get myself to do it.
John
[Greg Long] You criticize the church for being opinionated about the tracts and yet you are obviously very opinionated about them as well.I am a member of this church.
You think it’s unbiblical for a person to teach in a church before becoming a member, but yet you’re not a member of a church at all.
Can you help me out here?
[Greg Long] You criticize the church for being opinionated about the tracts and yet you are obviously very opinionated about them as well.Church membership is a debatable subject.
You think it’s unbiblical for a person to teach in a church before becoming a member, but yet you’re not a member of a church at all.
Can you help me out here?
[Pastor Harold] John,Not exactly. I do like input. This board is not very active, but the software they use here makes it quick to send messages, and is far easier to use. Vbuletin I agree is sluggish..
I have read many of your post and feel you are just looking for a group who will listen to you.This board hardly has any activity so will give this post a shot. I may be wasting my time, but will try.Be faithful with such things as you have and God will send you more. If you care about people, try pastoring some of them instead preaching and running to the next group.
It is hard working with people in a way. But no one ever said that I was causing waves. I just do not exactly communicate with them. I just keep my distance.
But have not left the church and for the moment God will have me be there.
John
Couple of thoughts.
Regarding new guy, perhaps you need to step it up and work on your interpersonal skills as well as your persuasive skills. (not manipulative) I know this is one thing I struggle with, especially persuasion. I have good ideas but lack the persuasive abilities that others have, so my opinions usually get ignored as well. So work on your persuasive abilities.
Also regarding new guy, have you prayed for him to be empowered by the HS? Perhaps instead of complaining that he gets all the good gigs, thank God that He has blessed people with different abilities and ask God to strengthen him in his theology.
For one many of them appear very opinionated and biased and just plain unfair. I do a bit of evangelism and notice that every single church has their own opinions on tracts, and styles of tracts.My first thought is, so what? Use your own tract. I doubt your church is telling you that you can only use a certain set of tracts and no others lest you face church discipline. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Regarding new guy, perhaps you need to step it up and work on your interpersonal skills as well as your persuasive skills. (not manipulative) I know this is one thing I struggle with, especially persuasion. I have good ideas but lack the persuasive abilities that others have, so my opinions usually get ignored as well. So work on your persuasive abilities.
Also regarding new guy, have you prayed for him to be empowered by the HS? Perhaps instead of complaining that he gets all the good gigs, thank God that He has blessed people with different abilities and ask God to strengthen him in his theology.
several things.
First, does the church have lines drawn to who is the real leaders are? In some churches it isn’t the Deacons or Elders. It’s the little old lady who was the Sunday School teacher of them all. I believe in Elder/Deacon leadership. Church decisions need to be brought before the board so we can oversee the effectiveness of what is being proposed. Now I do believe there are some areas we can allow people to do their thing and make certain decisions without board approval. You have to allow the birdies to fly on their own.
Second, for many the church is very important to them. Because of this they might not always think logically or even biblically about how things should be done. They become reactors instead of thinkers. I would say most church fights are done by parties where both of them care deeply about the church. They just see things differently.
Third, we don’t get along sometimes because the devil and his demons are working against the membership. Jesus said the world would know that we are His disciples if we love one another. The devil on the other hand says, “Not gonna happen!” So, we have to be prayerful to what the devil’s schemes are. There has to be a lot of honesty and forgiveness going on so that satan is defeated.
First, does the church have lines drawn to who is the real leaders are? In some churches it isn’t the Deacons or Elders. It’s the little old lady who was the Sunday School teacher of them all. I believe in Elder/Deacon leadership. Church decisions need to be brought before the board so we can oversee the effectiveness of what is being proposed. Now I do believe there are some areas we can allow people to do their thing and make certain decisions without board approval. You have to allow the birdies to fly on their own.
Second, for many the church is very important to them. Because of this they might not always think logically or even biblically about how things should be done. They become reactors instead of thinkers. I would say most church fights are done by parties where both of them care deeply about the church. They just see things differently.
Third, we don’t get along sometimes because the devil and his demons are working against the membership. Jesus said the world would know that we are His disciples if we love one another. The devil on the other hand says, “Not gonna happen!” So, we have to be prayerful to what the devil’s schemes are. There has to be a lot of honesty and forgiveness going on so that satan is defeated.
Don't be a great pastor, just be a pastor and let history judge for itself.
As a local church, self-supporting evangelist I can closely relate to your concerns. I too hear you saying perhaps that you are not really appreciated? Perhaps you can have breakfast with 1-2 other evangelists in the area? Like the OT prophet, the evangelist can be sort of a lone wolf. Few others do this work. It takes tough skin. Some arm chair evangelists want to tell those actually out winning souls how to do their job. Pastors too find that it can be lonely at the top. It comes with the territory.
I find that being in a men’s Bible study and breakfast group meets my needs! We are bonded.
“Do the work of an evangelist,” Paul said. I have not found it fruitful to try to force or recruit “nonevangelists” to do my work. Others have different gifts. Few pass out tracts any way so I offer my preferred tracts but beyond that I leave it to them. I am not the H.S. We have bigger fish to fry.
To put it another way, when God closes a door don’t try to kick it down. Go where you are fruitful. As a jail evangelist I give out tons of tracts, devotional guides, Bibles, lessons by mail. I have never seen two evangelists that operate the same way. For example, decades ago the Spirit prompted me to wear large message, T-shirts like: trust Jesus (front); supernatural, free gift, one time event = the New Birth (back). But if many did it it would be too much. It is my thing. We need other gifts in the Body too.
I find that being in a men’s Bible study and breakfast group meets my needs! We are bonded.
“Do the work of an evangelist,” Paul said. I have not found it fruitful to try to force or recruit “nonevangelists” to do my work. Others have different gifts. Few pass out tracts any way so I offer my preferred tracts but beyond that I leave it to them. I am not the H.S. We have bigger fish to fry.
To put it another way, when God closes a door don’t try to kick it down. Go where you are fruitful. As a jail evangelist I give out tons of tracts, devotional guides, Bibles, lessons by mail. I have never seen two evangelists that operate the same way. For example, decades ago the Spirit prompted me to wear large message, T-shirts like: trust Jesus (front); supernatural, free gift, one time event = the New Birth (back). But if many did it it would be too much. It is my thing. We need other gifts in the Body too.
I remember reading somewhere that only a small percentage of the Church(maybe 2%) has the gift of evangelism. It is a sad bit of statistics. I know that personally, I have the desire to do more to proclaim the Gospel to others, but I constantly have to struggle with my personality. ( I am a really quiet person, and a man of few words. I find it difficult to carry on conversations with people I don’t know). It is not for lack of desire that I do not do more. Nor a lack of knowledge. I love to read, and study the Bible regularly.
I know that is not a valid excuse for not doing my part. I hope that I can overcome this weakness.
Because of this, I can appreciate those men who do have the gift. I know how difficult it is to proclaim the Gospel among unbelievers, and how important it is for the growth and health of the Church. I think we should all do more to support these type of men.
Like the Lord Jesus said in his parable of the talents, those who do not have many talents, should give/invest their talent with those who are good at using their talents, and making it increase. We do this by financially supporting men/ministries that focus on evangelism, by assisting these men, encouraging them, and praying for them. We should hold these men in high esteem, and honor them for what they do.
I know that is not a valid excuse for not doing my part. I hope that I can overcome this weakness.
Because of this, I can appreciate those men who do have the gift. I know how difficult it is to proclaim the Gospel among unbelievers, and how important it is for the growth and health of the Church. I think we should all do more to support these type of men.
Like the Lord Jesus said in his parable of the talents, those who do not have many talents, should give/invest their talent with those who are good at using their talents, and making it increase. We do this by financially supporting men/ministries that focus on evangelism, by assisting these men, encouraging them, and praying for them. We should hold these men in high esteem, and honor them for what they do.
Discussion