"I challenge anyone to show me the superior wisdom of drinking 'in moderation,' as opposed to not drinking at all."
In arguing for total abstinence, these are arguments I would not use:
- The argument that alcohol destroys homes. You could use the same line of reasoning about avoiding credit cards! You could put credit cards in this sentence: “There is simply too much sorrow and heartache connected to [abusing credit]. Avoiding [credit card use] is simply the wise thing to do.”
- The no need for it argument: “Alcohol is not a necessity for life or good living.” You could say the same about Pepsi, ice cream, taking a vacation, having air conditioning, etc.
- The bad example argument: “Because I am an example to others, I will make certain no one ever walks the road of sorrow called alcoholism because they saw me take a drink …”. In my extended family we have many brothers, cousins, parents (well they are all dead (except my Mom!), etc who drink in moderation. Is not their moderation in drink a positive example.
- The argument that “The term “wine” or oinos in the ancient world, then, did not mean wine as we understand it today but wine mixed with water”. I don’t think one can substantiate this and the argument is weak
- Guaranteed never to be drunk!
- Your drinking will never be a stumbling block to another
- “Should those who practice abstinence look down on those who do not? The answer is an unqualified no.”
- “As a pastor or church leader, would I demand abstinence for church membership? No, I would not.” (Observation from having been a Pastor: demanding rarely works except with the weak willed and weak minded. I wouldn’t want to have a church filled with doting acolytes.
- “Can I say it is always a sin to take a drink? No.”
- Why didn’t Paul demand it in 1 Tim 3? (for deacons: “Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine”). Frankly I don’t even think he demanded it of Bishops (“not a drunkard” vs 3 ESV)
- Why didn’t Paul (to the horribly immature and carnal Corinthian church that actually had at least one event where Lord’s table participants were drunk! (1 Corinthians 11:21)) require total abstinence of the Corinthian church?
- Certainly the Jerusalem Council would have been clearly aware of alcohol abuse. Why did they state this “but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood” and add no more? “no greater burden than these necessary things”
[Bob Hayton] In another thread on this, Charlie shared this link which I found to pretty substantially debunk the myth that you can use consumable alcoholic beverages to purify water…
Wine does have an antimicrobial effect on Salmonella- the more acidic the wine, the quicker the little buggers take a header. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink007.gif
I agree that it’s a topic that requires one to act on their own God-guided conscience, but the minute I make a decision about someone based on whether or not I believe they are moderate in their drinking habits, it becomes more than just being fully persuaded for myself, KWIM?
Susan,
The link I gave points out how the author hasn’t come across any evidence that wine was used to purify water. Other methods of purification are discussed. Even today, mixing the more highly concentrated alcoholic drinks we have with water is not a method that is recommended for water purification when drinking unsafe water.
The link I gave points out how the author hasn’t come across any evidence that wine was used to purify water. Other methods of purification are discussed. Even today, mixing the more highly concentrated alcoholic drinks we have with water is not a method that is recommended for water purification when drinking unsafe water.
Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.
The whole title frames the discussion incorrectly. Why not ask:
1. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of eating snicker’s bars in moderation as opposed to not eating them at all.
2. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of swimming in the ocean in moderation as opposed to not swimming at all.
3. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of playing computer games in moderation as opposed to not playing them at all.
If it’s wrong, then it’s wrong. But if it’s not wrong, then it’s not wrong.
1. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of eating snicker’s bars in moderation as opposed to not eating them at all.
2. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of swimming in the ocean in moderation as opposed to not swimming at all.
3. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of playing computer games in moderation as opposed to not playing them at all.
If it’s wrong, then it’s wrong. But if it’s not wrong, then it’s not wrong.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Bob Hayton] Susan,
The link I gave points out how the author hasn’t come across any evidence that wine was used to purify water. Other methods of purification are discussed. Even today, mixing the more highly concentrated alcoholic drinks we have with water is not a method that is recommended for water purification when drinking unsafe water.
I know- I was just pointing out that wine does kill Salmonella. It does not, however, have a significant effect on E. coli. I think the reference to eating blood triggered the factoid, because I was thinking of someone eating a rare steak and washing it down with wine to kill the bugs. :)
[Chip Van Emmerik] The whole title frames the discussion incorrectly. Why not ask:
1. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of eating snicker’s bars in moderation as opposed to not eating them at all.
2. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of swimming in the ocean in moderation as opposed to not swimming at all.
3. I challenge anyone to show me the wisdom of playing computer games in moderation as opposed to not playing them at all.
If it’s wrong, then it’s wrong. But if it’s not wrong, then it’s not wrong.
I don’t think this is a good comparison, nor do I think the article is misdirected. The Bible does warn against gluttony, but other than that, why so many warnings in Scripture about wine if there’s no problem with it? Snickers and swimming and computers do not have a significant effect on the body unless partaken of to a completely ridiculous degree. Wine, however, DOES have an effect on one’s inhibitions and ability to function in rather small amounts (compared to how many Snickers it takes to render one incapacitated). There are also legal ramifications to consider when consuming alcohol. I just don’t see the comparison you are trying to make.
The idea of moderation is problematic, because what is moderate for one person will not be for another. I wouldn’t have a problem with someone driving a car after eating four Snickers bars or playing WoW for four hours, but I would not get into a car with someone who’d had four shots or four glasses of wine or four beers, for that matter. I’m not going to perform on site blood and breathalyzer tests to ascertain whether or not they were moderate or could tolerate the amount of alcohol they consumed. So now I am going to make a judgment call about the wisdom of putting my life in that person’s hands, and I’m going to say that it isn’t prudent to take that risk. Which being interpreted means I don’t trust their judgment.
That’s why there is a legitimate wisdom argument to be made about alcohol. The whole dilemma is resolved when one abstains.
ha ha! i just noticed Susan’s avatar and signature. :D
Alcohol is the only drug prescribed in both the old and new testaments. of course wine symbolizes Christ’s blood in The Lord’s Supper. one could almost say that alcohol is “the” Christian drug. it seems however that caffeine has supplanted it in fundamentalist circles. :bigsmile:
Alcohol is the only drug prescribed in both the old and new testaments. of course wine symbolizes Christ’s blood in The Lord’s Supper. one could almost say that alcohol is “the” Christian drug. it seems however that caffeine has supplanted it in fundamentalist circles. :bigsmile:
Give to the wise and they will be wiser. Instruct the righteous and they will increase their learning. Proverbs 9:9
“I challenge anyone to show me the superior wisdom of drinking ‘in moderation,’ as opposed to not drinking at all. “
Answer: If we adhere to the arguments that the author made in the article the answer is quite easy.
The superior wisdom is demonstrated by the one man, who drinks in moderation, because he has taken the whole counsel of God. Whereas, you, Daniel Akin, have rejected the divine right of such a man to exercise his conscience before God in a matter of liberty. Hence, your argument is based in both a denial of a portion of Scripture under which your dogmatism refuses to acquiesce and in that rejection your argument is based in a lessened faith.
________
But as pointed out by others, an answer isn’t even necessary seeing the premise of the challenged in quite flawed on more than one point.
Answer: If we adhere to the arguments that the author made in the article the answer is quite easy.
The superior wisdom is demonstrated by the one man, who drinks in moderation, because he has taken the whole counsel of God. Whereas, you, Daniel Akin, have rejected the divine right of such a man to exercise his conscience before God in a matter of liberty. Hence, your argument is based in both a denial of a portion of Scripture under which your dogmatism refuses to acquiesce and in that rejection your argument is based in a lessened faith.
________
But as pointed out by others, an answer isn’t even necessary seeing the premise of the challenged in quite flawed on more than one point.
If the water was so bad that the wine was needed to purify it, then what happened to the priests during the time when they had to abstain? Were they sick all the time?
Just asking. :)
Just asking. :)
The question is not, "Am I good enough to be a Christian?" Rather, the question is, "Am I good enough not to be?" Me blog Here I Blog and my bird thing that tweets.
I’ll admit it, I was a drunkard before God saved me and took the love and dependence on alcohol away from me. However, I’ve not heard some of the true interpretive questions addressed. One of the books that helped me get a handle on this subject was Alcohol: The Beloved Enemy by Jack Van Impe. In this volume he points out the difference between old wine (i.e. that which is going to have any significant alcohol content) and new wine (closer to juice). While most often the term for wine is admittedly generic, he takes the position that where wine is spoken of as a blessing, it is referring to new wine; and where it is spoken of as a curse, it is old wine. I haven’t seen anyone in these posts acknowledge this distinction. For example, Christ turned water into wine. Why was the master of the feast commended on it? Because it was new (obviously just made) and fresh, far better than that which had been sitting for months.
Also, the alcohol content of even the most advanced wines of that day is nowhere near what we see today. So we are not putting the Bible era “wines” in the same class as what we have today. I’ll get down from my pulpit before it becomes a hobby horse, but hope someone will legitimately interact with these issues.
Also, the alcohol content of even the most advanced wines of that day is nowhere near what we see today. So we are not putting the Bible era “wines” in the same class as what we have today. I’ll get down from my pulpit before it becomes a hobby horse, but hope someone will legitimately interact with these issues.
Van Impe’s position doesn’t make much sense to me since drunkenness did occur in the Scriptures. Drunkenness even occurred in the Corinthian church when Christians were together corporately. Plus, at Cana Jesus made “good” wine.
The question is not, "Am I good enough to be a Christian?" Rather, the question is, "Am I good enough not to be?" Me blog Here I Blog and my bird thing that tweets.
[Steve Newman] I’ll admit it, I was a drunkard before God saved me and took the love and dependence on alcohol away from me. However, I’ve not heard some of the true interpretive questions addressed. One of the books that helped me get a handle on this subject was Alcohol: The Beloved Enemy by Jack Van Impe. In this volume he points out the difference between old wine (i.e. that which is going to have any significant alcohol content) and new wine (closer to juice). While most often the term for wine is admittedly generic, he takes the position that where wine is spoken of as a blessing, it is referring to new wine; and where it is spoken of as a curse, it is old wine. I haven’t seen anyone in these posts acknowledge this distinction. For example, Christ turned water into wine. Why was the master of the feast commended on it? Because it was new (obviously just made) and fresh, far better than that which had been sitting for months.
Also, the alcohol content of even the most advanced wines of that day is nowhere near what we see today. So we are not putting the Bible era “wines” in the same class as what we have today. I’ll get down from my pulpit before it becomes a hobby horse, but hope someone will legitimately interact with these issues.
I take issue with the “two wine theory”, you can read a fuller treatment of it in a http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2008/08/07/two-wine-theory/ blog post I did a few years back. But for here, I would say, that “new wine” is what the believers at Pentecost were accused of being “drunk” with. And it also is referred to as being able to “take away the heart” (Hos. 4:11). Anyone familiar with wine knows aged wine is the best wine (Is. 25:6), so the master of the feast is probably pointing out the wine Jesus created as being this kind of good, aged wine. Finally, most have no quarrel with understanding “strong drink” as being uniformly alcoholic (even though actually wine was more potent in alcoholic content according to some authorities I’ve read). Yet the people of God were encouraged to partake of strong drink in their worship, and to enjoy it before the Lord (Deut. 14:26).
Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.
Christianity vs Islam
Moderation vs Total Ban
Grace vs Works
Sola Scriptura vs Scriptura Plus
Etc.
Moderation vs Total Ban
Grace vs Works
Sola Scriptura vs Scriptura Plus
Etc.
Discussion