"I challenge anyone to show me the superior wisdom of drinking 'in moderation,' as opposed to not drinking at all."

This was my response to that post (which was a good argument for abstinence, I do admit that):

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I certainly agree that there are wisdom reasons and weaker brother reasons to avoid the use of alcohol. But I believe there is a case to be made for the superior wisdom of drinking in moderation.

I was compelled by my study of Scripture’s treatment of wine and strong drink, as well as my contemplation of the wisdom in modeling moderation to my children, to actually gain an appreciation for wine and drink, in moderation.

Scripture praises wine as God’s “good gift to man” which “gladdens man’s heart” (Ps. 104:14-15) and that which “cheers man and God” (Judges 9:13). In fact the connection between joy and wine is pervasive in the Old Testament. Furthermore, diluted wine is seen as inferior (Is. 1:22), and the problem of drunkenness remains very clear (albeit no abstention position is taught), to the extent that Stein’s statements about your bladder bursting before being affected by wine become nonsense (and others have answered his assessment of ancient wine making and use). Deut. 14:26 includes strong drink as an item we should consume and rejoice before the Lord with.

Since Scripture presents wine as a stimulant to man’s joy, and a relief from pain (Prov. 31:6-7, Jer. 16:7) and sorrow, it is evident that such is God’s design in making wine available to us. The clear witness of Scripture argues that we do not drink to excess and get drunk. And people could know how to drink and not get drunk back then and they know this today, too.

Food and intimate marital relations are necessities, yes. But they are also pleasures. And they can be enjoyed in God’s limits and boundaries, and are sin when they are enjoyed outside of those limits and boundaries (in adultery or gluttony, etc.). Same for wine.

The wisdom in moderation that I see, is in modeling a careful use of it with children. Kids will tend to buck the system and if they are taught never to use alcohol, but not given express Biblical commands against its use, they may experiment with it when the substance is mysterious and novel and get caught up with it. If the mystery and novelty of it is gone, and a careful use is taught and modeled, fewer Christian kids may get caught up in drunknenness.

Furthermore, discussions like these tend to demonize the drink itslef. It’s “Satan’s brew”. No it isn’t. Substances aren’t evil, alcoholism isn’t a disease from an evil substance. It is a sin from an evil heart. Addictive qualities don’t excuse the blame. And yes not all should use this due to other factors.

But this is my biggest point, who are we to be smarter than what God tells us in His word? In the New Testament there were many opportunities for God to condemn alcoholic use. When the Corinthians were getting drunk at the Lord’s Table, Paul could have settled the matter. But he didn’t. We make resolutions about who can and cannot be on our trustee boards and institutions based on our superior wisdom. But Scripture, which downright praises wine (for it’s spirit-uplifting quality, mind you) numerous times. The loss of wine is a tragedy and a sad grief to bare. It’s parallel with barrenness of the womb, even. Study it out.

I feel that any wisdom which is smarter that God’s Word, is suspect. I need to fit my views with the Bible. And I refuse to view a substance as evil and wicked and a scourge to society, when that substance is not the cause of anything (it’s evil hearts which are), and when God expressly promotes that substance for our good.

I detail my case for wine at my blog. And share many other thoughts about this issue on my blog. This isn’t going to win everyone to my position. But I for one, didn’t lightly pick up the bottle. And I’ve never been drunk. And I don’t hang out at the bars and all that. This is something I’m careful about with weaker brothers, and I enjoy in the privacy of my home for the most part. I am enjoying God’s good gifts, from a heart that wants to fit in with His Word.

In Christ,

Bob Hayton

It’s interesting how deeply embedded cultural associations can become. At seminary, I had a Korean classmate who was shocked to find out that there were Christians in America who drank alcohol. Eventually, even knowing that other people in the seminary drank was too much for him and he went to another seminary which was firmly anti-alcohol. On the other hand, I had a South African classmate who couldn’t believe that there were Christians who condemned drinking alcohol. They drink wine at all their church functions. Most European Christians, I think, view American abstainers as a bit eccentric.

In America, the prohibition movement polarized public opinion. Most Americans were caught between horrific excess and abolition. Also, prohibition became tied to a number of other progressive movements, resulting in an odd alliance of progressive and “Christian” values. On the other side, prohibition shaped a culture in which alcohol became increasingly associated with bars, saloons, and illegal activities. This explains the intensity with which many people hold abstinence convictions. If I thought that my drinking alcohol meant embracing brothels, Nazis, and smuggling, I’d be bitterly opposed to it as well. These associations are widespread, not just a Southern fundy thing. Carl Henry wrote about the importance of fighting the liquor trade in The Uneasy Conscience of Modern Fundamentalism.

Bob, if moderationists wish to stake out a plausible claim for their position, they have to create a moderate culture, in which alcohol isn’t associated with the party scene. I don’t think that’s going to be easy to do, but it is possible, and it has to start in churches. The restoration of wine - not grape juice - as the beverage of the Lord’s Supper has to be the first step. Of all the substances Christ could have picked to be the sacramental sign of his blood, he deliberately chose an alcoholic beverage. Wine symbolizes the blessings imputed to us by Christ’s death. That has to be the starting point for Christian reflection on alcohol. After that, I’m not sure what the next step is; maybe it’s leading Bible study with a Heineken in hand.

[Jim Peet] “I challenge anyone to show me the superior wisdom of drinking ‘in moderation,’ as opposed to not drinking at all. “

I thought the author made a good argument - for himself!

And I think that Bob makes a good argument - for himself!

“Let each be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5)

I totally agree, Jim.

Charlie,

I think in some contexts in America, with certain Reformed groups for instance, there is a moderation culture. You are correct in how vastly important the cultural angle is in this whole debate.

On that note, it’s interesting to know that Thomas Welch, of “Welch’s Grape Juice”, invented his pasteurized grape juice in a search for a non-alcoholic communion drink. I did a post on that with some links about the history here: http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2006/08/03/welchs-grape-juice-worl… Welch’s Grape Juice, Worldly Wisdom and Wine .

Even if someone had only consumed a moderate amount of alcohol, I still would not allow one of my kids to get into the car with that person behind the wheel. Period. So whatever one believes about the acceptability in Scripture of moderate wine consumption, I don’t know anyone who would not have doubts about the wisdom of operating a motor vehicle after someone has had their personal limit as defined by their definition of ‘moderation’.

Which leads me to ask- what is ‘moderation’? I hear that word used as if it is a definitive guideline, but I don’t know what it means when applied to alcohol consumption.

Yea, I’m not a historian, but I have read up on the topic. In colonial days, alcoholic drinks such as hard cider were commonly drank by people of all ages. The problem back then was more the houses which emphasized gin and rum, rather than more home-grown products like cider and ale/beer. Home brews were not as high concentrated and of course automobiles weren’t invented yet.

Historically, churches and Baptist churches, used alcoholic wine. There are still strict Baptists that partake of alcoholic wine in communion, viewing non-alcoholic wine as doing disservice to the symbolism with Christ’s blood.

http://www.sbhla.org/bio_graves.htm J.R. Graves a Southern Baptist leader in the mid to late 1800s, and the principal voice in the movement now known as Landmarkism, http://books.google.com/books?id=k04NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA262&dq=Old+Landmarki…] defends alcoholic wine’s use for communion in his most well-known book: “Old Landmarkism: What Is It?”. (The link takes you to the Google Books page where he makes the argument.)

[Susan R] Which leads me to ask- what is ‘moderation’? I hear that word used as if it is a definitive guideline, but I don’t know what it means when applied to alcohol consumption.

People who haven’t experienced alcohol commonly think the whole idea of “moderation” is bogus, or undefined. But there really is a clear idea one gets about how much they can handle, and it isn’t hard to be sure to steer clear of that. It varies by body type and weight, but even the very size of glasses used for alcoholic drinks bears witness to a concern for moderation. Distilled liquor comes in very small shot glasses (2 oz.), which is roughly equivalent in alcoholic punch as a medium size glass (6 oz.) used for wine, or a mug (12 oz.) used for beer.

how many times have i heard this argument about customs in Bible times. i believe, after reflection, that this was indeed the case but not the exclusive reason for the use of alcohol.

water tends to contain lifeforms, many will sicken the imbiber. wine added to water will mitigate this. children started drinking wined water after weaning is my view. one would never want to over drink alcohol and suffer the effects since the next morning their water would have wine in it thus making things worse. i am looking at the practical aspect.

O.T. sacrifices had to have their drink portions poured out beside the altar signifying God drinking (proportion was very measured in the sacrifices). this is why “Jesus had to come eating and drinking” and not like the “baptizer” who was a Nazarite.

wine gladdens the heart but too much leaves the person in an unguarded state. many reasons come to mind why this self-regulating of alcohol would be the preferred conduct especially in Bible times.

everyone drank as a matter of course except those taking a non-drinking vow. the Nazarite, i think, must have subsisted on milk from their flocks instead of water.

making of wine was the way to preserve the harvest of grapes until the next year. it was a commodity and also required with their sacrifices.

in Scripture some things should always be done: worship and serve God only. some things should never occur: lying, adultry. then some things require self-control: internet surfing, gaming, television, sports, food, alcohol.

In another thread on this, Charlie shared this link which I found to pretty substantially debunk the myth that you can use consumable alcoholic beverages to purify water:

http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf] http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf

I corresponded with the author who said he never did write a part 2 to that, but he has amassed even more evidence corroborating the position he shares there.

[Jim Peet] How do we really know that holy land water was that bad?

by realizing it was a semi arid place very different from the upper midwest USA.

water was stored in cisterns for the most part or in pools available to animals. very stagnant sources where pathogens could proliferate quickly in a warm place.

on another note: Romans 14: 21 contains no alcohol. well it does but the issue was food and drink offered to idols. we tend to read our own circumstances back into Scripture too often. this realization struck me when visiting sites of the 7 churches of Revelation 2&3 in modern Turkey. one ancient site had both the remains of the temple of Dionysius and Bacchus, covering both the Greek and Roman gods of wine. the issue in Romans 14 is food and wine sacrificed to idols not the alcoholic content of wine.

[Bob Hayton]

[Susan R] Which leads me to ask- what is ‘moderation’? I hear that word used as if it is a definitive guideline, but I don’t know what it means when applied to alcohol consumption.

People who haven’t experienced alcohol commonly think the whole idea of “moderation” is bogus, or undefined. But there really is a clear idea one gets about how much they can handle, and it isn’t hard to be sure to steer clear of that. It varies by body type and weight, but even the very size of glasses used for alcoholic drinks bears witness to a concern for moderation. Distilled liquor comes in very small shot glasses (2 oz.), which is roughly equivalent in alcoholic punch as a medium size glass (6 oz.) used for wine, or a mug (12 oz.) used for beer.

I’ve experienced alcohol- a shot of Nyquil landed me in the ER with atrial fibrillation, so I guess for me moderation means ‘none’. But I am married to a recovered alcoholic, so I have some experience with people who claim they only had ‘a few’.

I’m not arguing with the idea that someone can consume alcohol in a moderate measure, but that I don’t trust anyone’s judgment but my own when it comes to whether or not they were truly moderate… so I am going to err waaaaaaayyyy over on the “If you had one, you had one too many” side of the highway.

Susan,

As Jim pointed out, we each have to be persuaded personally. And certainly when it comes to someone driving your children, you can be stringent on no “moderation” of any kind. :)