The role of women in the ministry
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I am a Complementarian and believe that a woman cannot preach or teach, or hold a position over men. However I think a woman can teach children. At my church they believe women can be deacons. This seems to be a grey area, as women in this church act as servants and do not pastor, teach, or preach. I know there are those that disagree with my views, and think the Bible says a woman cant pray out loud, cant give a testimony in the church, cant lead the children’s ministry without a man being present, etc.. To most I am very conservative, but to others I am a moderate. What are your views? Since this is a Fundamental website I expect most will be Complementarians here.
John
John
- 20 views
Hi John or (anyone else who has an opinion), I agree mostly with most of what I think you’re saying/asking here. Just a few (hopefully) quick questions for clarification.
However I think a woman can teach children.
What age group do you think the transfer should happen?
This seems to be a grey area, as women in this church act as servants and do not pastor, teach, or preach.
Do you include ladies bible study teaching in this, as well? Do you think if a woman is teaching an all-woman’s Sunday School class on Sunday morning and a man walks into the room and sits down—a) the woman should stop teaching; b) continue on teaching, but not look at the man; c) ask the man to leave; or d) explain to the group what the bible says about women teaching to men?
Do you think it’s biblically appropriate for women to share their thoughts on Scriptures in Sunday School where men are present? What about small group settings where men are present, either in a church building or in a home?
Thanks for answering these—when/if you have the time.
Kim Noble
:)
However I think a woman can teach children.
What age group do you think the transfer should happen?
This seems to be a grey area, as women in this church act as servants and do not pastor, teach, or preach.
Do you include ladies bible study teaching in this, as well? Do you think if a woman is teaching an all-woman’s Sunday School class on Sunday morning and a man walks into the room and sits down—a) the woman should stop teaching; b) continue on teaching, but not look at the man; c) ask the man to leave; or d) explain to the group what the bible says about women teaching to men?
Do you think it’s biblically appropriate for women to share their thoughts on Scriptures in Sunday School where men are present? What about small group settings where men are present, either in a church building or in a home?
Thanks for answering these—when/if you have the time.
Kim Noble
:)
The what ifs, what ifs are not my focus here. We could speculate all day with that “what if this” what if that.”
Bottom line is that no one is perfect, and I did not come to debate so if you have that thought just forget about it. In general a woman biblically shall not teach or preach, unless she is teaching children or women only. She can lead women small groups that is fine. If the church does it right a man cannot walk in, and if he does he has not abided by the small group sex standards.
Bottom line is that no one is perfect, and I did not come to debate so if you have that thought just forget about it. In general a woman biblically shall not teach or preach, unless she is teaching children or women only. She can lead women small groups that is fine. If the church does it right a man cannot walk in, and if he does he has not abided by the small group sex standards.
The what ifs, what ifs are not my focus here. We could speculate all day with that “what if this” what if that.”
Bottom line is that no one is perfect, and I did not come to debate so if you have that thought just forget about it.
Hi John, I really apologize if that’s how I communicated my questions. I went back and re-read them trying to figure out how my questions were not of a helpful nature. I guess I should have clarified that my clarification questions were to share my point of view, but I was trying to avoid unnecessary debating tactics. Which is what I’m possibly accused of here. Boy—did I mess that up—eh? :)
You asked the question what are “your” (my) views. I actually thought my questions would help generate discussion and helps share views. None of the above scenarios are (IMO) too ultra specific and pretty general scendarios that may happen in a conservative/fundamental environment. As you alluded, if we’re all coming from the complementarian view (which I certainly am) then these questions, IMO, are not at all subject to heated debate—just (my intention, anyway) to help define the views question.
Maybe I should have asked, first, what views are you asking for? I would think clarifications and definitions in on the discussion would only help the discussion.
I’m very sorry if my last post came off as anything more than that agenda. You only have my (unfamiliar) word, but I truly meant it as such.
Kim
Bottom line is that no one is perfect, and I did not come to debate so if you have that thought just forget about it.
Hi John, I really apologize if that’s how I communicated my questions. I went back and re-read them trying to figure out how my questions were not of a helpful nature. I guess I should have clarified that my clarification questions were to share my point of view, but I was trying to avoid unnecessary debating tactics. Which is what I’m possibly accused of here. Boy—did I mess that up—eh? :)
You asked the question what are “your” (my) views. I actually thought my questions would help generate discussion and helps share views. None of the above scenarios are (IMO) too ultra specific and pretty general scendarios that may happen in a conservative/fundamental environment. As you alluded, if we’re all coming from the complementarian view (which I certainly am) then these questions, IMO, are not at all subject to heated debate—just (my intention, anyway) to help define the views question.
Maybe I should have asked, first, what views are you asking for? I would think clarifications and definitions in on the discussion would only help the discussion.
I’m very sorry if my last post came off as anything more than that agenda. You only have my (unfamiliar) word, but I truly meant it as such.
Kim
- Women can teach children
- Women can and should counsel women
- Women can and should teach women
- Women can be deaconesses (although I don’t find much Biblical support for the role aside from Phoebe in Romans 16:1 which uses the Greek work διάκονος (but it might be speaking of the role of a servant rather than the office of deacon))
- I find women serving in the office of deacon problematic because of 1 Timothy 3:12, “Let deacons be the husbands of one wife”
Hi Jim, How do you view I Tim. 3:11—particularly the word “likewise”? Thanks! Kim
[skjnoble] Hi Jim, How do you view I Tim. 3:11—particularly the word “likewise”? Thanks! KimI believe the the wives (GK γυνή) refers to the wives of the deacons
ESV renders it “Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded,faithful in all things.”
Yeah too many churches jump on their interpretation of the Greek and the Phoebe instance. I find it far more common in SBC churches than IFB ones. In fact I am not aware of a single IFB church that allows women deaconesses are you?
So Jim do you believe that women cannot pray out loud? Do you believe that women cannot lead a children’s study without a man being in charge? Or do you believe that a woman can give a testimony or share a missionary adventure in her church?
John
So Jim do you believe that women cannot pray out loud? Do you believe that women cannot lead a children’s study without a man being in charge? Or do you believe that a woman can give a testimony or share a missionary adventure in her church?
John
NIV uses the exact same phrase here as the ESV. It often goes for the dynamic which in many instances makes the text easier to understand. But this is not a thread on Bible translation philosophy as I am bound to get support for and against this and other similar translations. As I do a bit of evangelism I just find this one much easier for the average street person to understand. Well the Living Bible or New Living would be easier, but there are some theological concerns with those translations.
I believe the the wives (GK γυνή) refers to the wives of the deacons
ESV renders it “Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded,faithful in all things.”
Thanks, Jim! I’m starting a new thread because I’m very interested in a wide range of (complementarian) views and particular scenarios and would love to discuss it if you (or anyone else) has the time. Biblical women’s ministries and roles, both in the home and in the church, are of a great interest to me. While I have my own conclusions, I do desire to be sharpened, as well, from other viewpoints. Thanks!
Kim :)
ESV renders it “Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded,faithful in all things.”
Thanks, Jim! I’m starting a new thread because I’m very interested in a wide range of (complementarian) views and particular scenarios and would love to discuss it if you (or anyone else) has the time. Biblical women’s ministries and roles, both in the home and in the church, are of a great interest to me. While I have my own conclusions, I do desire to be sharpened, as well, from other viewpoints. Thanks!
Kim :)
[jwolf6589]
So Jim do you believe that women cannot pray out loud? Do you believe that women cannot lead a children’s study without a man being in charge? Or do you believe that a woman can give a testimony or share a missionary adventure in her church?
- Do you believe that women cannot pray out loud? [red] Answer: I believe a woman can pray out-loud in a small group setting
- Do you believe that women cannot lead a children’s study without a man being in charge? [red] Answer: I believe a woman can lead a children’s study without a man present!
- do you believe that a woman can give a testimony or share a missionary adventure in her church? [red] Answer: Yes
Other areas where I’ve seen women serve effectively and I don’t have issues with:
- Church clerk
- Church treasurer
- Church financial secretary (distinct from treasurer function)
- Choir director
More on woman deacons and why I oppose
Many see the Acts 6:1-7 passage as either the first deacons or a precursor to the office of deacon
You probably know that there are two (perhaps more but I know of two) words for “men” in the NT
One is ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos - think Anthropology ) which is a generic form. Eg: Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
The other is ἀνήρ (anēr) which means “male men” (not mail men! :) )
In Acts 6:3 - “Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business;” - guess which is used?
Answer: [red] ἀνήρ
Many see the Acts 6:1-7 passage as either the first deacons or a precursor to the office of deacon
You probably know that there are two (perhaps more but I know of two) words for “men” in the NT
One is ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos - think Anthropology ) which is a generic form. Eg: Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
The other is ἀνήρ (anēr) which means “male men” (not mail men! :) )
In Acts 6:3 - “Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business;” - guess which is used?
Answer: [red] ἀνήρ
Thanks for taking the time to respond and inform the uninformed (me!). This was very helpful. In my (scant) reading on the topic, I’ve seen one person (I’m sure there are plenty) define the different uses/definitions of the word “woman” in this verse, but not men. Very interesting. Thanks!
Kim :)
Kim :)
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