Mark Dever Keynote Speaker at Lansdale Conference

Someone said, “Truth is truth wherever you find it.”

[Becky Petersen]

[Jeff Straub] I really am puzzled who get listened to on the internet … you can be a ministry drop-out, working in the secular world with a blog site and be certified to comment on a man like Mark Dever. Or you can be a pastor of a pretty small church but because you are all over the internet making comments and are blunt, then you are qualified to speak. Mark Dever has done more than most men for the cause of Christ.

This is EXACTLY how I felt when Pastor Sweatt’s sermon at that regional FBF conference made all the blogs a while ago. People who were 1/2-1/3 his age were all over him in their blogs, people who had done waay less than he has done in the ministry, etc.

Of course, just to be clear, the critics “who had done waay less than he” shared the same criticisms of Sweatt as such “no-names” as Kevin Bauder. :)

So, since Bauder, Doran, & Jordan are compromising fundamentalists because Jordan invited Mark Dever to speak at Calvary’s conference & Bauder/Doran will share the platform, should Mark Minnick and Scott Aniol drop out of the Preserving the Truth conference in order to maintain the purity of their fundamentalist credentials??? I mean, should they share the platform with men who shared the platform with Dever? Won’t they be tainted by rubbing shoulders with those who rubbed shoulders with a “non-fundamentalist” conservative evangelical Calvinist with an eschatalogically open Articles of Faith?

http://truthconference.org/

In the words of my favorite Church History prof…. “I speak as a fool.”

Can some one get some SBC hand sanitizer for those at this conference? Maybe a place of quarantine and purifying at least? I have been in the SBC so don’t respond to this post you may catch some thing from a heretic like me. God have mercy on you Mark Denver you poor afflicted soul.

Mark Dever is a bible-centered Pastor who has a ministry that is consistent with historical fundamentalism. He practices biblical separation although he does not practice it in every degree that some fundamentalists do. He is not a flawless man and neither are any of the critics of Calvary Baptist Seminary.

I just do not see Calvary Baptist Seminary, David Doran, Kevin Bauder, or Tim Jordan going outside of biblical parameters by serving at a conference together.

I have to apologize for being really vague with this reference… but it’s because memory fails on the details. But it seems to me that SBC was not always viewed as non-fundamentalist. Before the publication of House on Sinking Sand by David Beale, it seems like there were a number of fundamentalists who shared platforms with SBC pastors in one venue or another. …not that House on Sinking Sand changed all that (I’m not sure what impact it had one way or the other), but I’m thinking the book was written partly because a significant number did not see the SBC as a “boundary of fundamentalism” in that era.

Somebody who is much more up on fundamentalist history could probably help alot on this point.

My aim in bringing it up is to suggest that if there were conditions in the past that made the institutional/organizational boundary of SBC not necessarily a boundary of the fundamentalist movement, might it be possible for those conditions to exist again? If so, might we be “there” now?

But another angle:
It seems to me like the boundaries of fundamentalism had to be very institutional in nature in the early decades because the battles were being fought organizationally. That is, the beliefs and practices of fundamentalists were pretty much givens and the fight was over whether they would retain or regain control of denominations, mission boards, schools, etc.

When that era ended, it seems to me that redrawing boundaries along less institutional/organizational/denominational lines was ultimately inevitable. So we are seeing now that many do not want to say “fundamentalism ends where this denomination or group begins,” but want to define the boundaries by different factors.

…which takes us all back to the unanswered questions of biblical separation— over what? to what extent? with what tone? etc.
I’m glad to see the Preserving the Truth conference in Jan in the Detroit area taking on “Biblical Separation” as a topic.

It could not be more timely.

[Becky Petersen] This is EXACTLY how I felt when Pastor Sweatt’s sermon at that regional FBF conference made all the blogs a while ago. People who were 1/2-1/3 his age were all over him in their blogs, people who had done waay less than he has done in the ministry, etc.

So if Sweatt was wrong (and I still think he was), he gets a pass just because he’s older and in the ministry? Is that really how things are supposed to work? No wonder people aren’t comfortable with SI.

Of course, it’s not like I have a Master’s in Pastoral Theology from BJU or any pastoral experience myself. I should just go sit down and be quiet, I suppose, so the ‘big boys of Fundamentalism’ can keep their pride, or until I can get permission to speak about something that won’t ruffle feathers.

Is it any wonder why Fundamentalism as a movement is dying?

[Jay C.]
So if Sweatt was wrong (and I still think he was), he gets a pass just because he’s older and in the ministry? Is that really how things are supposed to work? No wonder people aren’t comfortable with SI.

Surely you remember the stir all over the internet (not just SI) when that happened. I wondered the same thing after perusing the net for a while. Then, I quit reading almost all Christian blogs and found some good “secular” ones on Personal Finance and quilting, thrift, etc. as Christian (esp. fundamental) were simply too depressing to read.

What I’m saying is that Jeff S. said that people are commenting too much on the situation (and that the commenters are inexperienced and pastoring small churches—you have no authority). How come everyone has so much time to inspect every little thing that any one pastor does? (In this case Dever and the fact that Calvary is having these speakers…Previously (IMO) it was Pastor Sweatt’s sermon. I couldn’t believe the uproar that got!) Don’t they (we) have ministries/people who need tending?

I thought the same…I didn’t quote Jeff there, but it was in his post—either that one, or the next one. I wondered how people had the hours and hours to devote to writing posts critiquing him/his sermon/his attitude towards YC. I also thought it humorous (and sad) when people who were basically “young in the ministry” were caustic towards Pastor Sweatt. If we’re supposed to leave people alone because they are experienced in the ministry and have done more than we (as per Jeff’s reasoning), then let’s it go all the way around—not just one way. Also, Jeff’s point about “Don’t you have people to care for?” is true. We have ministries and people to reach—we should be focusing on it.

As for our ministry, what Calvary does or doesn’t do doesn’t really affect us and our small work here. Just as Herbster’s work in TriCity doesn’t affect us or other big works in San Francisco or Chicago, etc. It is interesting to watch and I’m not sure what I think, but I certainly think the “uproar” is interesting (and the reaction to the “uproar”). I read one blog after the Pastor Sweatt incident that said he probably shouldn’t have spent so much time on the issue. No kidding. I feel the same way here.— Except not THAT much time has been spent so far. When people get to digesting and tearing apart Dever on page 20, then it MAY be about equal. And to be honest, I’ve not seen that much “tearing apart” of Dever. Some are questioning his appearance, but most seem to be positive about Calvary’s invitation (as if it matters what anyone on SI thinks), but most of the comments seem pretty mild to me.

(Generally speaking SI commentators are pretty mild—esp. as compared to the world at large.)

(Generally speaking SI commentators are pretty mild—esp. as compared to the world at large.)

Well, that’s why we have mods - to deal with the not-so-mild ones :)

What I’m saying is that Jeff S. said that people are commenting too much on the situation (and that the commenters are inexperienced and pastoring small churches—you have no authority). How come everyone has so much time to inspect every little thing that any one pastor does? (In this case Dever and the fact that Calvary is having these speakers…Previously (IMO) it was Pastor Sweatt’s sermon. I couldn’t believe the uproar that got!) Don’t they (we) have ministries/people who need tending?

I thought the same…I didn’t quote Jeff there, but it was in his post—either that one, or the next one. I wondered how people had the hours and hours to devote to writing posts critiquing him/his sermon/his attitude towards YC. I also thought it humorous (and sad) when people who were basically “young in the ministry” were caustic towards Pastor Sweatt. If we’re supposed to leave people alone because they are experienced in the ministry and have done more than we (as per Jeff’s reasoning), then let’s it go all the way around—not just one way. Also, Jeff’s point about “Don’t you have people to care for?” is true. We have ministries and people to reach—we should be focusing on it.

But this is the problem, Becky. Do people really want a website where every comment is seen and approved by someone else (a dictatorial censorship), or do we value the freedom of speech, even when we don’t like what the person says? The Mod team has talked about this in our own discussions, and I think that someone put it best when they said ‘that we can’t police stupid’. It would be nice if we could, because there’s times when I’d like to ban people or hide comments that should never have been made!

Yes, there is a ton of discussion on ‘hot button issues’, and yes, the time probably could be used more profitably…I cut back on SI for a while simply because I had other, more urgent priorities. But what a person does - whether on a discussion board or off of it - is ultimately their decision, and God will hold everyone to account for that. God gives us the ability to choose, and we do so. I can’t hold you to account for your use of the site. You can’t hold me accountable for my family finances. The kind of lust for power that would allow someone to decide is what is and is not acceptable, polite, or edifying gets IFB and others into trouble - we basically try to be God by deciding not only what is and isn’t appropriate, but also what is and is not permissible. There are other things, like you said, that are far more important than this website. But I don’t think any one human can take that role for themselves - we have to leave that to God.

Sharper Iron is what it is and is not what it’s not!

A guy at my church has said to me several times … you must be on S/I all the time!

Well not really … just a minute here or there. I suppose if I post 3 times a day it looks like I am here all the time.

But that’s an aside.

Gone are the days when a preacher can say something fairly stupid to a local congregation and not make waves (thinking of the Sweatt issue a year ago).

The Internet has opened all of that up. It’s good and it’s bad

Sharper Iron is not some kind of official spokesperson for any kind of new fundamentalist. It’s just a a news and discussion board.

• Read if you want to … don’t if you don’t want to
  
• Post if you want to … don’t if you don’t
  

If Sharper Iron is some how a replacement for ..

• Corporate worship
  
• Personal Bible study and prayer
  

Well you’ve got some wrong priorities!

[Aaron Blumer]..which takes us all back to the unanswered questions of biblical separation— over what? to what extent? with what tone? etc.

One of the most difficult topics to draw clear Scriptural boundaries around IMO- the proper time and reason to separate is a bit easier IMO, but the difference between separation and non-cooperation, and how far do you go with secondary, third-ary, fourth-ary separation…? I know what I would do as an individual, but how men who are pastors and teachers involved in public speaking decide whether or not to share a platform (which is viewed as extending the right hand of fellowship)- I don’t envy them this quandary. If public speaking/preaching is your vocation, and for most I’d say it’s a joy- how do you turn down the opportunity to present your views?

I realize Paul was not a pastor, but he spent alot of time writing letters refuting error in the church during his travels. Are we not supposed to earnestly defend and contend for the faith? Is the truth not worth our effort in defending? Here is my problem with some of the above comments…as believers (this includes all church members/pastors) that truth fleshes itself out close to home (our Jerusalem as it were) but we also have a duty to do so in the broader context of society (to the ends of the earth). IMO, it is a little self-righteous to say, “I have better things to worry about in my own flock than to concern myself with the church at large.” Gospel Truth is worth standing for whether it is down the street from ya, or across the globe. Balance is the key here, maintain your primary ministry-but don’t lose sight of what your duty as a child of God is within the greater context of the world in which we live.

…regarding the platform of the internet allowing just anyone to enter the discussion without “credentials” I sure am glad Christ did not consider credentials when he chose an educated fisherman to be the “rock” on which he was building His church. Your seminary education is hard work and study over a short (or long time for some) but does not make you any more or less qualified than a person who has spent years reading and studying the Scriptures, praying, seeking God and utilizing good resources to further their understanding of God’s Word. That piece of paper hanging behind you on the wall is very much earned through hard work and study, but is not the only indicator that a person has knowledge and understanding of Truth.

In His Service,

Dereck Muth

[Dereck]
…regarding the platform of the internet allowing just anyone to enter the discussion without “credentials” I sure am glad Christ did not consider credentials when he chose an educated fisherman to be the “rock” on which he was building His church. Your seminary education is hard work and study over a short (or long time for some) but does not make you any more or less qualified than a person who has spent years reading and studying the Scriptures, praying, seeking God and utilizing good resources to further their understanding of God’s Word. That piece of paper hanging behind you on the wall is very much earned through hard work and study, but is not the only indicator that a person has knowledge and understanding of Truth.

Dude. The rock is Christ, not Peter. :-) That may be debatable, but it’s pretty important in world history. This is just the kind of thing a Seminary degree is useful for. Jesus didn’t take a fisherman and just leave him there, he taught him intensively for about three years. Kinda like seminary.

Regarding qualifications to post. If a person writes on the forums here uses scripture, clear logic, good mechanics, appropriate illustration, and doesn’t abuse the facts… well then they’ll be listened to, and rightly so. The degree isn’t the issue, it’s primarily a good use of scripture, in which a degree may be very helpful.

[Becky Petersen]

As for our ministry, what Calvary does or doesn’t do doesn’t really affect us and our small work here. Just as Herbster’s work in TriCity doesn’t affect us or other big works in San Francisco or Chicago, etc. It is interesting to watch and I’m not sure what I think, but I certainly think the “uproar” is interesting (and the reaction to the “uproar”). I read one blog after the Pastor Sweatt incident that said he probably shouldn’t have spent so much time on the issue. No kidding. I feel the same way here.— Except not THAT much time has been spent so far. When people get to digesting and tearing apart Dever on page 20, then it MAY be about equal. And to be honest, I’ve not seen that much “tearing apart” of Dever. Some are questioning his appearance, but most seem to be positive about Calvary’s invitation (as if it matters what anyone on SI thinks), but most of the comments seem pretty mild to me.

(Generally speaking SI commentators are pretty mild—esp. as compared to the world at large.)

I’m actually kind of tired of the old “what they do doesn’t effect me” bit. We’re the body of Christ. If Calvary sneezes, TriCity might catch a cold, and my church might be next. While it’s true that it doesn’t effect me in the same way, I still think discussions like this are useful, as they were with the whole Sweat controversy because if someone goes off the reservation, they should (in a sense) fear a good helpful online discussion that make look negatively on such a reservation departure. It also helps to sharpen each other (ha! there’s that sharpen thing again!) in molding each other’s ideas so that when such a thing happens in one of our churches, it won’t have been the first time we’ve thought about it.

I think this is great. Definitely a conference that would be well worth the cost to attend. I think the message it sends is fantastic and I look forward to seeing more cooperation between good Bible-centered ministries regardless of their labels and university alignments…

Matthew Richards
Fishers, Indiana