Mark Dever Keynote Speaker at Lansdale Conference
Advancing the Church speakers include Dave Doran and Kevin Bauder along with Calvary faculty- 9 views
Dever used to be my pastor, and he’s an extraordinary man.
I was at Capitol Hill Baptist two nights ago,and Dever recommended and gave away a book by BJU professor Mark Sidwell called “Free Indeed.” He’s been helpful to a lot of fundamentalists, so this makes sense.
I was at Capitol Hill Baptist two nights ago,and Dever recommended and gave away a book by BJU professor Mark Sidwell called “Free Indeed.” He’s been helpful to a lot of fundamentalists, so this makes sense.
I guess this answers my questions about this statement:
[Central Seminary ethos statement on Fundamentalism] For this reason, we believe that careful, limited forms of fellowship are possible.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Now there was a Mark Dever who said:
1. You are in Sin if you have your church have a Millennial statement in your statement of faith.
2. That he would only allow 5 point Calvinists in his church pulpit.
3. That he is in and loves the Southern Baptist Convention.
4. That he endorses Reformed theology.
5. That he endorses the Reformed Lordship Gospel without reservation.
6. Dispensationalism is heresy.
Since I am fairly sure this Fundamental Baptist school would avoid that Mark Dever, is there another person of the same name who is invited to speak? Where is he from?
However, this may be a false rumor as I heard they have also invited the less controversial Rick Warren and I know now that is not true.
1. You are in Sin if you have your church have a Millennial statement in your statement of faith.
2. That he would only allow 5 point Calvinists in his church pulpit.
3. That he is in and loves the Southern Baptist Convention.
4. That he endorses Reformed theology.
5. That he endorses the Reformed Lordship Gospel without reservation.
6. Dispensationalism is heresy.
Since I am fairly sure this Fundamental Baptist school would avoid that Mark Dever, is there another person of the same name who is invited to speak? Where is he from?
However, this may be a false rumor as I heard they have also invited the less controversial Rick Warren and I know now that is not true.
[Don Johnson] I guess this answers my questions about this statement:[Central Seminary ethos statement on Fundamentalism] For this reason, we believe that careful, limited forms of fellowship are possible.
Don,
Whether or not you agree with the action and choices, your own statement seems less than “careful,” I must say. It has already been conceded in the Central statement that some fellowship was seen as possible. This is an academic setting (the conference is hosted by an accredited institution of higher learning). It is not substantially different in many senses than Fundamentalist faculty members participating in settings like ETS or NANC. You are implying that this is essentially a careless and reckless action- in a careless and reckless manner yourself, it seems to me. If you understand this to be “careless” fellowship, what exactly were you envisioning “careful” fellowship would look like?
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Bob,
Can you give me a source for anything you just said, particularly point 6? If you can’t then, I respectfully ask that you withdraw your comment on grounds of gossip.
I’m pretty sure that the Mark Dever you’re describing, doesn’t exist, at least in part. If you’re going to slander someone, please at least be kind enough to the truth to give source and context, not to say that everything you said is slanderous. Yes he he does endorse reformed theology. So what? He’s in the SBC. Obviously.
Also, Dever would say that Ligon Duncan (yes, THAT Ligon Duncan) is in “sin” for allowing baby baptism, but it’s not so serious that he won’t have fellowship with him. It’s a low-grade sin to believe and practice something the Bible is clearly against. In the same way, it’s a low-grade sin to speak with absolute clarity about something the Bible is less clear about. That’s how I think he would answer point 1.
If you look at the picture on the website, it’s the same Mark Dever. Just to clear it up.
Can you give me a source for anything you just said, particularly point 6? If you can’t then, I respectfully ask that you withdraw your comment on grounds of gossip.
I’m pretty sure that the Mark Dever you’re describing, doesn’t exist, at least in part. If you’re going to slander someone, please at least be kind enough to the truth to give source and context, not to say that everything you said is slanderous. Yes he he does endorse reformed theology. So what? He’s in the SBC. Obviously.
Also, Dever would say that Ligon Duncan (yes, THAT Ligon Duncan) is in “sin” for allowing baby baptism, but it’s not so serious that he won’t have fellowship with him. It’s a low-grade sin to believe and practice something the Bible is clearly against. In the same way, it’s a low-grade sin to speak with absolute clarity about something the Bible is less clear about. That’s how I think he would answer point 1.
If you look at the picture on the website, it’s the same Mark Dever. Just to clear it up.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2009/07/13/dever-you-a…
So if you’re a pastor and you’re listening to me, you understand me correctly if you think I’m saying [red] you are in sin if you lead your congregation to have a statement of faith that requires a particular millennial view. I do not understand why that has to be a matter of uniformity in order to have Christian unity in a local congregation.Seems that would touch on Dispensationalism that is pre-mill / pre-trib
So he’s saying that leading a church to have a doctrinal statement with ANY millennial statement is sin. Given the way I know he’s using the word sin, I agree with him. He’s saying it sets the bar higher than the Bible for membership, which is wrong.
He is most definitely not saying in this quote that “dispensationalism is heresy.” Otherwise you would have to say that every millennial view is heresy. Not all sin is heresy.
He is most definitely not saying in this quote that “dispensationalism is heresy.” Otherwise you would have to say that every millennial view is heresy. Not all sin is heresy.
Clarifications:
- I’m not defending Bob T’s comment # 6 above (source unknown to me)
- And I am not criticizing the Advancing the Church conference
- And I appreciate http://www.9marks.org/ and what I’ve read there
- I’ve read Nine Marks of a Healthy Church and I value it
- But with regard to the sin comment above …. I heartily disagree with Brother Dever
Jim,
I understood your comment in that way, but my last statement was directed more at Bob T.
Shayne
I understood your comment in that way, but my last statement was directed more at Bob T.
Shayne
If you disagreed with Dever on this point, would that make it wrong for him to come to a conference? Could he still be helpful in an academic context such as this? I suspect you would allow for disagreement.
I personally would attend it. Or the Shepherds’ conference etc
I really don’t have a problem with the conference
I really don’t have a problem with the conference
[Greg Linscott] Whether or not you agree with the action and choices, your own statement seems less than “careful,” I must say. It has already been conceded in the Central statement that some fellowship was seen as possible. This is an academic setting (the conference is hosted by an accredited institution of higher learning). It is not substantially different in many senses than Fundamentalist faculty members participating in settings like ETS or NANC. You are implying that this is essentially a careless and reckless action- in a careless and reckless manner yourself, it seems to me. If you understand this to be “careless” fellowship, what exactly were you envisioning “careful” fellowship would look like?But please, spare me the “this is an academic conference” baloney. It is the first fleshing out of what Doran and Bauder have been hinting at for some time. It is pure sophistry to hide behind the “academic” banner. FWIW, I have repeatedly disagreed with fundamentalist participation in ETS. I haven’t thought much about NANC, so no comment there.
In asking what “careful” fellowship would look like… well, I haven’t conceded that as an option. I have been critical of using this kind of language and have been asking what it means. This move seems to be the answer to my question. And yes, I do think it is careless, at best.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Many schools in the fundamentalist orbit have sent not only faculty, but students to NANC conferences, especially at Faith Baptist in Lafayette, IN. Whether you agree with the action or not, it has been behavior well-established for a number of years, and they have had a great bit of involvement with people whose ecclesiastical and separatist positions would be along the same lines as what we’re discussing here (if not actually further from a separated Fundamentalist position than Dever).
I’m interested in what will be coming from the sources (Calvary, Doran, Bauder, et al). In one email discussion with a friend, he raised the distinct possibility that these appearances could actually lead to a forum where the differences are hashed out to some degree between Dever and those on the separatist side, such as the discussions at NLC on educational matters (I seem to recall hearing about an accreditation discussion involving BJ3), or the Calvinist discussion between Burggraff and Doran. I will admit I was not expecting this, myself, and I’m not necessarily celebrating- though I’m not troubled by it as you are, Don. I would like to see what unfolds.
I’m interested in what will be coming from the sources (Calvary, Doran, Bauder, et al). In one email discussion with a friend, he raised the distinct possibility that these appearances could actually lead to a forum where the differences are hashed out to some degree between Dever and those on the separatist side, such as the discussions at NLC on educational matters (I seem to recall hearing about an accreditation discussion involving BJ3), or the Calvinist discussion between Burggraff and Doran. I will admit I was not expecting this, myself, and I’m not necessarily celebrating- though I’m not troubled by it as you are, Don. I would like to see what unfolds.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
I personally think part of what Bauder and Doran are doing is smoking out the movement fundies and hoping to retain the principled fundies. This thread is a great representation. The chicago way is naturally upset over this, but that is expected.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
I appreciate Mark Dever and what he has done to strengthen local churches. I do not agree with him in every jot or tittle.
Why are some taking cheap shots at Central? Last time I looked it was Calvary in Lansdale that has invited Mark Dever.
There is nothing wrong with being a Southern Baptist. Fundamentalists could learn a few things from our SBC brethren, maybe being gracious is one of them!
Seems like no matter who is invited to speak at a conference, there will always be some uptight fundamentalist who look for the evil in everything! What a shame.
Why are some taking cheap shots at Central? Last time I looked it was Calvary in Lansdale that has invited Mark Dever.
There is nothing wrong with being a Southern Baptist. Fundamentalists could learn a few things from our SBC brethren, maybe being gracious is one of them!
Seems like no matter who is invited to speak at a conference, there will always be some uptight fundamentalist who look for the evil in everything! What a shame.
Discussion