Ethos Statement on Fundamentalism & Evangelicalism

Republished with permission (and unedited) from Central Baptist Theological Seminary. (The document posted at Central’s website within the last couple of weeks.)

Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

To be an evangelical is to be centered upon the gospel. To be a Fundamentalist is, first, to believe that fundamental doctrines are definitive for Christian fellowship, second, to refuse Christian fellowship with all who deny fundamental doctrines (e.g., doctrines that are essential to the gospel), and third, to reject the leadership of Christians who form bonds of cooperation and fellowship with those who deny essential doctrines. We are both evangelicals and Fundamentalists according to these definitions. We all believe that, as ecclesial movements, both evangelicalism and Fundamentalism have drifted badly from their core commitments. In the case of evangelicalism, the drift began when self-identified neo-evangelicals began to extend Christian fellowship to those who clearly rejected fundamental doctrines. This extension of fellowship represented a dethroning of the gospel as the boundary of Christian fellowship. It was a grievous error, and it has led to the rapid erosion of evangelical theology within the evangelical movement. At the present moment, some versions of professing evangelicalism actually harbor denials of the gospel such as Open Theism or the New Perspective on Paul. We deny that the advocates of such positions can rightly be called evangelical.

On the other hand, we also believe that some Fundamentalists have attempted to add requirements to the canons of Christian fellowship. Sometimes these requirements have involved institutional or personal loyalties, resulting in abusive patterns of leadership. Other times they have involved organizational agendas. They have sometimes involved the elevation of relatively minor doctrines to a position of major importance. In some instances, they have involved the creation of doctrines nowhere taught in Scripture, such as the doctrine that salvation could not be secured until Jesus presented His material blood in the heavenly tabernacle. During recent years, the most notorious manifestation of this aberrant version of Fundamentalism is embodied in a movement that insists that only the King James version of the Bible (or, in some cases, its underlying Greek or Hebrew texts) ought be recognized as the perfectly preserved Word of God.

We regard both of these extremes as equally dangerous. The evangelicalism of the far Left removes the gospel as the boundary of Christian fellowship. The Fundamentalism of the far Right adds to the gospel as the boundary of Christian fellowship. Neither extreme is acceptable to us, but because we encounter the far Right more frequently, and because it claims the name of Fundamentalism, we regard it as a more immediate and insidious threat.

Another version of Fundamentalism that we repudiate is revivalistic and decisionistic. It typically rejects expository preaching in favor of manipulative exhortation. It bases spirituality upon crisis decisions rather than steady, incremental growth in grace. By design, its worship is shallow or non-existent. Its philosophy of leadership is highly authoritarian and its theology is vitriolic in its opposition to Calvinism. While this version of Fundamentalism has always been a significant aspect of the movement, we nevertheless see it as a threat to biblical Christianity.

We also reject the “new-image Fundamentalism” that absorbs the current culture, producing a worldly worship and a pragmatic ministry. These self-professed fundamentalists often follow the latest trends in ministry, disparage theological labels such as Baptist, and aggressively criticize any version of Fundamentalism not following their ministry style.

We oppose anti-separatist evangelicalism, hyper-fundamentalism, revivalism, and new-image Fundamentalism. We wish to reclaim authentic Fundamentalism, to rebuild it, and to strengthen it. For us that reclamation involves not only working against the philosophy of broad evangelicalism (which assaults us from outside), but also working against those versions of Fundamentalism that subvert the Christian faith.

On the other hand, these positions do not exhaust the evangelical options. Conservative evangelicals have reacted against the current erosion of evangelicalism by refocusing attention upon the gospel, including its importance as a boundary for Christian fellowship. These conservative evangelicals have become important spokespersons against current denials of the gospel, and they have also spoken out against trends that remove the gospel from its place of power in transforming lives (e.g., the church growth and church marketing movements).

Certain differences do still exist between historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Fundamentalists, in contrast to Conservative evangelicals, tend to align more with dispensationalism and cessationism. Fundamentalists tend to react against contemporary popular culture, while many conservative evangelicals embrace it. Perhaps most importantly, Fundamentalists make a clean break with the leadership of anti-separatist evangelicals, while conservative evangelicals continue to accommodate (or at least refuse to challenge) their leadership.

Because of these differences, we do not believe that complete cooperation with conservative evangelicalism is desirable. Nevertheless, we find that we have much more in common with conservative evangelicals (who are slightly to our Left) than we do with hyper-Fundamentalists (who are considerably to our Right), or even with revivalistic Fundamentalists (who are often in our back yard). In conservative evangelicals we find allies who are willing to challenge not only the compromise of the gospel on the Left, but also the pragmatic approach to Christianity that typifies so many evangelicals and Fundamentalists. For this reason, we believe that careful, limited forms of fellowship are possible.

We wish to be used to restate, refine, and strengthen biblical Fundamentalism. The process of restatement includes not only defining what a thing is, but also saying what it is not. We find that we must point to many versions of professing Fundamentalism and say, “That is not biblical Christianity.” We do not believe that the process of refinement and definition can occur without such denials. The only way to strengthen Fundamentalism is to speak out against some self-identified Fundamentalists.

We also see a need to speak out against the abandonment of the gospel by the evangelical Left, the reducing of the gospel’s importance by the heirs of the New Evangelicalism, and the huckstering of the gospel by pragmatists, whether evangelicals or Fundamentalists. On the other hand, while we may express disagreement with aspects of conservative evangelicalism (just as we may express disagreement with one another), we wish to affirm and to strengthen the activity of conservative evangelicals in restoring the gospel to its rightful place.

The marks of a strong Fundamentalism will include the following:

  1. A recommitment to the primacy and proclamation of the gospel.
  2. An understanding that the fundamentals of the gospel are the boundary of Christian fellowship.
  3. A focus on the importance of preaching as biblical exposition.
  4. An emphasis upon progressive sanctification understood as incremental spiritual growth.
  5. An elevation of the importance of ordinate Christian affections, expressed partly by sober worship that is concerned with the exaltation and magnification of God.
  6. An understanding of Christian leadership primarily as teaching and serving.
  7. A commitment to teaching and transmitting the whole system of faith and practice.
  8. An exaltation of the centrality of the local congregation in God’s work.

These are features of an authentic Fundamentalism that we all feel is worth saving. These features describe the kind of Fundamentalism that we wish to build. Their absence in either Fundamentalism or other branches of evangelicalism constitutes a debasing of Christianity that we intend to oppose.

Discussion

[Aaron Blumer]
[Chip] Regardless of the denials, you cannot claim one perfect translation without some form of double inspiration in the translation work
In fact, it can’t be inspiration without reinventing what inspiration means. By definition, inspiration is what happened when the autographa were written. It’s revelatory. It produces words where there were none before.
See, I think that is exactly what is happening here. Translation is not like working a mathematical formula, there is not a one to one transfer from one side of the equation to the other. The translated words do not match up exactly with the original work. What is produced is not exactly what was there before, it is to some degree new and different. When KJVOers claim that the translators chose exactly the right and only perfect wording for the translation, they are by definition claiming reinsipiration whether they accept the term or not. Only when, as I think MIke Durning noted, they leave room for other translations with different words to be equally authoritative as the translated Word of God has the discussion moved out of the realm of heresy and back within the confines of historic orthodoxy. Reasonable, godly people can discuss and disagree about the best translation; heretics claim God’s special work to create a single perfect translation and reject all others as corrupted.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

When I referenced Mike Durning’s statement, I forgot it was not in this thread. It was in the Let Minutiae Speak thread, post 27.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Inspiration is an English word used with several meanings. It can mean to just have an emotion that moves you. Some use the term regarding Shakspear. Liberal theologians use it regarding the authors of scripture but with a different meaning than conservative theologians. The conservative theological definition invloves protection from error and a superintending of the authors of scripture that involves the very words used. However, there is nothing in the definition that indicates it cannot be used of other than the authors of scripture. It may mention the author of scripture in the definition but that is application to them but not limiting the use of the term. The term is often used of the theory or process set forth by KJVO proponents in declaring the textus receptus and the Ben-Chayyim Hebrew text and then also the translated KJV. It is called re-inpiration by some opponents of the KJVO. In the book “One Bible Only,” Kregel, 2001, Ed Glenny states:

“Anyone who believes that God has preserved the NT text intact in the TR, if they wish to be consistent, must argue for inspiration of Scripture through the person who completed the edition of the TR that perfectly preserves God’s word (whatever that is).” (P.109)

Glenny further states:” What is worse they extend inspiration from the original documents (as the NT teaches in 2Timothy 3:16-17 and 2Peter 1:20-21) to the sixteenth century.” (p. 109). Glenny is a friend who was a former faculty member at Central Seminary. He has the THD from Dallas and was working on the PHD from the U. of Minn. He is recognized as a very good NT scholar. He and others in this book do use the word inspiration as a process involved in the preservation claims of the KJVO movement. Also, this book and a book I mentioned prior, “King James Onlyism, a new sect” by James D. Price both indicate that those claiming that certain Greek and Hebrew texts are without error will also only use the KJV and reject the NKJV that is translated form the very same Greek and Hebrew texts they claim are without error. They make claims for the KJV alone that makes them the same as those claiming the English translation is without error and involves re-inspiration. I stated this in a prior post.

If one does not wish to use the word “inspiration” outside of its use for original authors of Scripture then perhaps another word may be used such as ” Zippadoo” for the process that guarantees a perfect Greek and Hebrew text and a perfect translation, both reflecting the very words used by the original authors of scripture, and being without any error. This Zippadoo must be the same as that process that guaranteed the inerrancy of the original manuscripts. There it was inspiration but in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries it is now Zipadoo. However, post Apostolic Zipadoo is heresy because only the Apostles had the authority to designate that which were the inspired documents reflecting the word of God. The “oracles” of God were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:1-2). All the Apostles were of necessity Jewish. The only scripture authored by a gentile are Luke and Acts. Both are inspired but written based on using a divinely guided historical method. They evidence inspiration but have no Revelation. They are inspired and infallible history. They were accepted as scripture because Paul and the other Apostles recognized them. The Apostles were those who were the foundation of the church (assembly) of Christ along with the Prophets. Christ is the cornerstone. The KJVO claim the scriptures were given to the church or churches. They missed a step. They were given to the Apostles for the church and churches.

The point of all the above is to point out the unique position and entrustment to the Jews and the Jewish Apostles. There can be no inspiration to produce inscripturation without Apostles. There can be no designating that which is the actual intended infallible word of God without the presence of Apostles to recognize and authenticate the documents or a translation. God has spoken to the church through His oracles the Scriptures. To claim that certain documents and a translation are the infallible words of God and produced in the 15th and 16th centuries is to claim not only inspiration (or Zapadoo) for men who were never called or designated by Christ himself (Apostolic requirement) and who do not qualify to be entrusted with God’s oracles as they were not Jewish. Joseph Smith claimed such authority and claimed to produce new oracles from God. Others have claimed to receive revelation and to have Oracles from God. However, non were Jewish and non were specifically with the living Christ and called by Him. They were not Apostles and have no claim of oracles. Today we can claim that we have no oracles but using the methods of historical discovery we have an overwhelming weight of evidence that enables us to say we have those oracles in a way that leaves very little in doubt and that factually makes no major doctrine or historical fact doubtful. Meanwhile the KJVO advocates claim they have the oracles in an absolutely infallible existence because Zapadoo (inspiration) has occurred even without the Apostles. They rest on the same foundation as all post Apostolic Zapadoo. They are claiming inspiration just like the actual authors of scripture but also just like Joseph Smith and others. They must logically claim Zapadoo has occurred (like inspiration) but they do not have Apostolic authority for authentication, but neither did Joseph Smith.

Now is the KJVO movement, with its claim of a perfect translation, and its claim that all other textual historical research and English translation are seriously flawed, making a claim that is heretical?

The term heretical, as used in scripture, actually has the idea of being schismatic. So in that sense they definitely are. However in the broader sense it has the idea of deviating from truth. So in a sense, we all are probably wrong with regard to some things we teach or believe and have some heresy on minor points. (that does not include me of course). :bigsmile: However, if one is deviating from Biblical truth on an essential doctrine for salvation they are definitely involved in heresy. Also, if we are involved with a teaching that may have the logical consequence of threatening an essential doctrines of Christianity then we probably should also use the word heresy. This would be a marker warning to others of serious error with possible dangerous consequences. The advocacy of an infallible text type in contrast to all others being fallible, and the advocacy of an infallible translation, in contrast to all others being fallible and flawed, are not based on the normal processes of human discovery. They are based on a hypothesis that of logical consequences that must rely on men being involved with Zapadoo (inspiration) which has the same kind of processes and outcomes as that which occurred in the inspiration of the original authors of scripture. However, there were no no Apostles present in the 16th and 17th centuries to authenticate the process. Instead the claim is based on what they believe are the promises of God with regard to preservation of His oracles and then they’re ignoring all the many facts and problems that exist historically and factually in the texts and translation themselves. This then takes the foundation of Christianity and removes it from the epistemology involving historical process and places it in the realm of magic and religious faith only. This takes how we receive and evidence the reality of God’s word out of the reality of history. The facts of Christianity are historical in nature and then have mystical application, If we receive how we receive and know the historical facts from the process of historical discovery all we have left is religious mystery received by an unprovable magic process. We become like the Eastern religions. The KJVO assertions are dangerous heresy requiring severe warning.

One may have friends who are KJVO but moderate in attitude but they should not be involved with them in ministry endeavors. There should be ministry separation. There should aslo be personal separation from the more extreme in attitude. It is the essence of separation that we have a duty to protect from all danger. There are wolves in the woods waiting and there are wolves in the flock (Acts 20: 17-33).

Suppose we accept for the sake of argument that we ought to separate from leaders/ministries on our near right that are involved in beliefs/practices that are a serious problem. Should we not do our separating with the same spirit of brotherly love and effort to appreciate the good that we extend toward those on our near left that we separate from?

IOW, why is it a very bad thing to hurl invective at the CEs but not a very bad thing to do this to the KJVOs?

Just curious.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Concur
[Aaron Blumer] Suppose we accept for the sake of argument that we ought to separate from leaders/ministries on our near right that are involved in beliefs/practices that are a serious problem. Should we not do our separating with the same spirit of brotherly love and effort to appreciate the good that we extend toward those on our near left that we separate from?

IOW, why is it a very bad thing to hurl invective at the CEs but not a very bad thing to do this to the KJVOs?

Just curious.

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

Aaron, as I read your post, my first thought was, “Good question.” Three possibilities popped into my head. 1) Perhaps the errors are not comparable - have to think about that one, 2) perhaps we have been beating up on the CE’s for a long time and the ultra rights have been getting away unscathed - a new target and a satisfying sense of justice, 3) perhaps it is because of the way the other side has reacted in the disagreements. By number 3 I mean I do not usually hear or think of CE’s using heated rhetoric when talking about those to their right (liberals - yes, but not the CE’s). However, the extreme right fringe is usually loud and abrasive and unrelenting in attacking those who do not accept their perfect KJV position (or other doctrinal disagreements).

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Well that was fun!

Jay - Now we can all sit together and enjoy those marshmellows! Let’s not forget the hot cider! It’s fall baby!

It’s good to know at the end of the day…..it’s the end of the day! This has been great for our numbers. Next time we get a lag in readership we should just ask Kevin to write up a little “thingy” on ….. I don’t know…….maybe what is the best music for the church?

OK….for our favorite campfire song - “It only takes a spark - and some gas - to get a fire going…….”

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

[RPittman] Chip, you’re boxing in some folks who do not necessarily agree with your reasoning. You cannot sustain your assertion that one cannot “claim one perfect translation without some form of double inspiration in the translation work.” This is your logic based on your accepted paradigm of rationality. If I asked you to mount a Biblical defense, I think you would be at loss.
Hardly. I have no intention of rehashing 50 years of biblical KJVO rebuttal,some of which has been shared on this thread already. There are absolutely biblical grounds to reject a KJVO position, which is why NONE of the early fundamentalists or proto-fundamentalists were KJVO. It is simply unbiblical to claim a single perfect translation exists. At least those who claim a perfect TR have some biblical grounds for discussion, but then Mike’s point about multiple English translations rears its head again.
[RPittman] Undoubtedly, you don’t understand what certain KJVO’s mean by preservation. It’s not the same as “double inspiration.” It seems that you don’t understand the difference between preservation and “double inspiration”. thus erroneously concluding that “some form of double inspiration in the translation work” is unavoidable. Not true. God used the human efforts of the KJV translators to preserve his Word for English-speaking peoples. Was this an intentional and foreseen action of the translators? Not necessarily. From the preface, it is apparent that they had no foreknowledge of the future role of their translation.
I’ll bite - in what way do you suppose God superintend the translators to produce a singular, word perfect English translation that was different from the work He did through the prophets and apostles?
[RPittman] This translation, the KJV, was accepted by the Believing Church as the Word of God for four hundred years. As the practice of the Believing Church, led by the Holy Spirit, canonized Scripture, the Believing Church has adopted the KJV over all competitors as the Word of God.
Up until 1611. Now the believing church has once again recognized and adopted modern translations as the Word of God.
[RPittman] It is faithful and trustworthy. This is NOT to say that God could not raise up another translation but for the present, only the KJV is the trustworthy translation. If God did raise up another translation, how would you know?
How would you know RPittman? Why not accept the NKJV as a more modern translation of the TR for instance?
[RPittman] Now, surely you are not going to argue that all modern translations, however good or bad, are God’s Word. Then, how do you differentiate?
Of course not. We differentiate today in exactly the same way the church did in 1611.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

[RPittman] God used the human efforts of the KJV translators to preserve his Word for English-speaking peoples. Was this an intentional and foreseen action of the translators? Not necessarily. From the preface, it is apparent that they had no foreknowledge of the future role of their translation. This translation, the KJV, was accepted by the Believing Church as the Word of God for four hundred years. As the practice of the Believing Church, led by the Holy Spirit, canonized Scripture, the Believing Church has adopted the KJV over all competitors as the Word of God. It is faithful and trustworthy. This is NOT to say that God could not raise up another translation but for the present, only the KJV is the trustworthy translation. If God did raise up another translation, how would you know? Now, surely you are not going to argue that all modern translations, however good or bad, are God’s Word. Then, how do you differentiate? It’s a rational process bringing Scripture under the scrutiny and judgment of human rationality and reason. It pretty much eliminates faith, the leading of the Holy Spirit, and a Divine preservation operating in history. Until you can establish and justify the validity of MV’s, then the KJV is trusted and true.
So the near-universal acclaim of the English-Speaking church established this, without any confirming revelatory word from God? This strikes me as a very dangerous, Roman-Catholic sounding position coming from a KJVO guy. This Bible is the Word of God because the church says so seems to invert authority.

But, for the sake of argument, I’d like to hear a bit about process. Let me work up to a few questions.

Sooner or later, the English language morphs enough that the KJV is no longer the Word of God in English except to the most scholarly 10% of the population. I would argue that we are already there, and those who scoff at this statement should step out of their KJVO service for a moment and sit in on a public school 8th grade class trying to read aloud. As the New Testament was written in “common” Greek, we operate on the assumption that God desires access to His Word. Thus we assume that God wants His Word in the language of the people. Arguing from your perspective, then, does it not seem reasonable to conclude that God will (if He has not already) prepare yet another translation that He will miraculously preserve? Should you not be prepared for that eventuality?

Questions, then:

What was the process by which God showed His approval of the KJV to the church, and what is the process by which God would show His approval of a new translation? Does this process take time? If so, is it possible that you have not yet discerned God’s identification of the next “authorized” translation? In the intervening gap between the Preservation of a New Translation for the English-speaking world and its recognition as such by the church, won’t some fall into the cracks? Won’t there be some who will hang onto the old too long? Won’t others leap to the new before it is recognized? The fact that there were many who did not use the KJV suggests we should ask who or which groups need to be in on this consensus? Who doesn’t matter to the process?

In your quest for certainty in the KJVO position, I believe you have merely shifted your uncertainty to a new location.

Just as you would no doubt argue that inspiration without preservation is useless, I suggest the following: God perfectly preserving the KJV as the one and only Word of God without His making a clear declaration of it as such is useless. Any process you can posit that identifies the KJV as that perfectly preserved manuscript is an area of uncertainty as large as we “modern-versionists” have to grapple with. We just hold our uncertainties at a different point in the process.

[RPittman] Wow, Aaron, you’re showing a flash of inspiration……..uh, perhaps I should say…..uh, understanding or insight here. After all of our back and forth, you do see other possibilities. Well said……………probably couldn’t have said it as well myself. Wow, Aaron, you’re showing a flash of inspiration……..uh, perhaps I should say…..uh, understanding or insight here. After all of our back and forth, you do see other possibilities. Well said……………probably couldn’t have said it as well myself.
I’ve never been among those who claim that all KJVOs are alike in their rationale, especially in the area of inspiration. I grew up with fairly frequent exposure to a form of KJVO that was very serious about orthodoxy and wouldn’t tamper w/the doctrine of inspiration for anything. It’s true that sometimes people assert views and don’t see that they come with unavoidable implications, but belief in the superiority or even perfection of the KJV is a problem for other reasons. The inspiration implications are only unavoidable/logically necessary if the perfection rationale is inspiration based. But I don’t think anybody was using that argument before Ruckman and many KJVOs ran the other way when he came on the scene and have never wanted to assoc. w/his thinking on these subjects.

But what I’m saying is really very simple: all KJVOs are not alike and you have to know the particulars of their position and the whys and wherefores before you can properly lump them in with the worst versions of that position.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Chip Van Emmerik] Aaron, as I read your post, my first thought was, “Good question.” Three possibilities popped into my head. 1) Perhaps the errors are not comparable - have to think about that one, 2) perhaps we have been beating up on the CE’s for a long time and the ultra rights have been getting away unscathed - a new target and a satisfying sense of justice, 3) perhaps it is because of the way the other side has reacted in the disagreements. By number 3 I mean I do not usually hear or think of CE’s using heated rhetoric when talking about those to their right (liberals - yes, but not the CE’s). However, the extreme right fringe is usually loud and abrasive and unrelenting in attacking those who do not accept their perfect KJV position (or other doctrinal disagreements).
Chip, these are definitely factors.

There’s also the movement equivalent of “trouble with the in-laws.” Sometimes we are less patient with our relatives than we are with strangers or more distant relations, maybe partly because the annoyance factor is intensified by close proximity and constancy. There’s no question in my mind that many nasty (to barrow a few adjectives from Kevin Bauder, pugilistic and bellicose!) leaders and leader wannabes on the right flank of fundamentalism have made life alot harder for the kinder, gentler, wiser folks who are occupying similar but not identical places in their beliefs about the issues.

So this is all the more reason to look for good decent folks who happen to be very traditional (in the recent-history sense) but have lots of, frankly, fools speaking for them without their permission. If we can nuance people’s positions on the left, we can nuance people’s positions on the right. It’s just the charitable thing to do.

But I accept that it’s actually harder to do.

Edit: one other thing about that. We need to think about who “we” is. At SI, we have not been beating up on the CEs. And most of the beating up from the far right isn’t happening here. I’d like to see it be a place where beating up of the far right doesn’t happen either. A beating-up free zone. One can dream.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Got an email pointing out that there are six or eight places where NKJV text deviates from TR. I didn’t look them up to verify but that seems likely.

In my book that still makes NKJV a TR translation, but I can why those who believe the text underlying the KJV is word perfect (and must be, to be adequate for our use) would not find it suitable. Though I don’t believe the TR is superior, I wish the NKJV translators had stuck with it to the letter. If nothing else, it would improve the translation debate landscape we find ourselves in today.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

SI HAS, in the past, asked people to leave who did hold to an inspired translation position.
This is quite concerning.

We use the NKJV, but have no problem with the KJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, etc. We also believe that they are the inspired Word of God. Certainly not in the sense of “immediate inspiration” of the autographa (term used by Francis Turretin in his Institutes of Elenctic Theology), but in the practical sense of II Tim. 3:16-17—copies and translations (see Turretin as well as Edward Goodrick, Is My Bible the Inspired Word of God?). Maybe this is part of the KJVO problem—we tell people they don’t have an inspired Bible. Yikes.

Randy,

I also use the NKJV as my primary preaching translation. You are right to say there is the practical authority of 2 Tim 3 which connects our confidence from inspiration then to authority now. The problem is that the majority of these guys believe that the KJV translation is indeed inspired in the same “immediate inspiration sense” of the autographa to a different degree than the others you list (NASB, ESV, etc…..). The poison is only injested when we say the KJV is inspired in the same sense as the autographa in a way in which the NKJV, and others are not.

Good to see you here bro! Later. Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

I continue to rejoice over the excellent statement that Central published. After reading this thread, I am in awe at the patience of Dr. Bauder and his colleagues.

To be honest I couldn’t bring myself to read the whole thing. I started skimming pretty rapidly toward the end of the first page. Most of this discussion is like fruit with no taste, like broken cisterns with no water. How came I to be here commenting, adding my own dry husks and parched dust?

My friends, this sort of discussion sharpens little. Sweeter than ever to me now is the ongoing work of the Conservative Evangelicals. Their cisterns are refreshingly full and their fruit is delightful to taste. As I wrestled with Greg Boyd, it was R. C. Sproul who lent me a hand. As I face N.T. Wright now, it is John Piper who stands alongside me. These are just two examples.

I suspect many of you are in agreement with me. But here we are, stirring the ashes.

Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.