"...(W)e cannot rely on an artificial system that’s built simply on the accounting of 'external wrongs' to discern the level of spiritual vitality."
Good things happening up there in the North woods!
Nice statement.
Would someone from Northland be willing to share some specific ways this statement would impact what is being done at the school?
Would someone from Northland be willing to share some specific ways this statement would impact what is being done at the school?
(I got 6 demerits once for an untied tennis shoe lace, and another 6 for wearing my watch around my fingers instead of my wrist because the band broke and I couldn’t afford a new one- apparently these were signs of rebellionQuote from an anonymous friend
Personally, I think rigorous disciplinary systems have alot of value. Glad not to be under one anymore but it did me good. The world is full of people who make unreasonable demands on you and it’s almost cruel to send young people into such a world without giving them some lessons on how to “put up and shut up.” Seriously. I know this is almost rank heresy in our day of warm and fuzzies, but learning to say yes sir when you think the guy is unfair and out of his mind is an important life skill.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I agree with Aaron. I once started thinking about a sermon called “Why we need Stupid Rules”. I envisioned myself preaching it in a college chapel.
I don’t think we can be good disciples without knowing how to graciously submit to stupid rules.
And, given the people’s republic I find myself living in, it is a given that I have to live under a lot of them.
I don’t think we can be good disciples without knowing how to graciously submit to stupid rules.
And, given the people’s republic I find myself living in, it is a given that I have to live under a lot of them.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
It seems to me that what Don and Aaron call for could be provided in the academic requirements, at least to some degree- deadlines, style requirements, course requirements, attendance, etc. etc. Even certain things like dress codes or how the dormitory is maintained might have a place for adherence and enforcement.
It seems to me, though, that where many institutions have not done quite so good a job at is separating such offenses from issues that have more direct spiritual consequences. There is a place to correct someone for leaving an unmade bed or allowing one’s hair to exceed accepted length. That isn’t the same thing as lying or stealing, though. Someone who exhibits discipline in personal grooming or housekeeping may really struggle with pride or coveting- something far more difficult to control with rules.
It seems to me, though, that where many institutions have not done quite so good a job at is separating such offenses from issues that have more direct spiritual consequences. There is a place to correct someone for leaving an unmade bed or allowing one’s hair to exceed accepted length. That isn’t the same thing as lying or stealing, though. Someone who exhibits discipline in personal grooming or housekeeping may really struggle with pride or coveting- something far more difficult to control with rules.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[quote Aaron] Personally, I think rigorous disciplinary systems have alot of value. Glad not to be under one anymore but it did me good. The world is full of people who make unreasonable demands on you and it’s almost cruel to send young people into such a world without giving them some lessons on how to “put up and shut up.” Seriously. I know this is almost rank heresy in our day of warm and fuzzies, but learning to say yes sir when you think the guy is unfair and out of his mind is an important life skill.Aaron, before I jump in with my own thoughts here, just want to clarify: I agree that there is value in strict discipline. But are you somehow implying that a school ought to intentionally have unfair and unreasonable rules in order to somehow prepare students for the “real world?” You seem a wise, reasonable guy, so I’m going for benefit of the doubt here. How am I misunderstanding you?
Random side note:
[quote The Way of Discipleship] Northland International University is a Bible college.C’mon guys, you have to pick one and go with it! H:)
[quote The Way of Discipleship] Northland International University is a Bible college.C’mon guys, you have to pick one and go with it! H:)
[Eric R.] Random side note:C’mon guys, you have to pick one and go with it! H:)I’ve had the same thoughts.
[quote The Way of Discipleship] Northland International University is a Bible college.
[Greg Linscott] Someone who exhibits discipline in personal grooming or housekeeping may really struggle with pride or coveting- something far more difficult to control with rules.Are we only after dealing with spiritual issues with discipline and rules? Spiritual issues are part of it, but I submit there is much more.
And as my subject line suggests, you are going to run into stupid rules all your life. Better get used to it.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[Don Johnson][Greg Linscott] Someone who exhibits discipline in personal grooming or housekeeping may really struggle with pride or coveting- something far more difficult to control with rules.Are we only after dealing with spiritual issues with discipline and rules? Spiritual issues are part of it, but I submit there is much more.
And as my subject line suggests, you are going to run into stupid rules all your life. Better get used to it.
Don, on one side I am tempted to agree with you. We will have to deal with stupid rules all our lives, and learning to deal with them well is indeed a useful skill. I also went to a Christian institution with a lot of those types of rules, and not only did I survive, I think I acquired some invaluable lessons from it, just as you did. However …
The problem with that approach is that although you learn some good skills from it, there are obvious downsides that we have to deal with as well. I’ll list just a couple.
1. Maintaining such an atmosphere breeds disrespect for (or at least an avoidance of) authorities/institutions which would normally be worthy of our respect, not just our obedience. While the student with the right attitudes toward rules learns to conform outwardly, he also learns to see the authority as petty and something to be avoided when later given a choice to do so. Having survived 4 years of this, there’s no way I would ever (willingly) place myself under that type of authority again. I see it as a “one time only” thing. When I see churches or businesses, or other organizations that lean this direction, I avoid them like the plague, and would continue to do so.
Even military academies, much more strict in discipline (in certain areas) than Christian colleges, have a tiered system where over time, levels of freedom increase along with levels of responsibility, and certain types of infractions no longer even apply. This is true in some Christian colleges, but not to the same extent. It’s also true that part of what they are trying to accomplish is unit camaraderie, and it’s OK with them if students see their commanding officers as a type of adversary. In fact, it’s OK if they are hated, as long as they are obeyed. I’d argue that’s not what we want in a Christian institution.
Also consider military boot camp. It is an environment with special goals that lasts for a very limited time. No person would want to stay under that environment forever, even career military types. The lessons you learn there are basic and important, but that sort of environment is very limited in long-term usefulness. You’ll note that it is accomplished in significantly less than 4 years time.
2. A Christian college, at least, *should* be much more concerned with actual spiritual development instead of just “learning to deal with stupid rules.” Patience in tribulation is something that *is* good to learn (even though stupid rules are only minimal tribulation), but it’s just one aspect of the Christian life. And when levels of spirituality and maturity are judged more by the attitude toward stupid rules (which anyone can learn to fake, and I met plenty that did) than by actually understanding the students and what their motivations are, then you simply have a factory that generates a lot higher percentage of ersatz product than really ought to be the case.
3. Similar to 1., valuing such an atmosphere creates and maintains more of an adversarial relationship between the administration and the students than one of trust. As a student, I was never genuinely convinced that the administration at the institution I attended was *really* more interested in my spiritual development than in keeping everyone “in line.” I would never have opened up about my heart motivations or struggles to someone that I could trust not to see helping me with my spiritual struggles to be more important than “turning in” for “attitudes and thoughts not in line.” As a result, I opened up to no one in *any* type of authority, and that means they lost some avenues through which they might have been able to be a positive spiritual influence.
4. Finally, as others have said, it would be one thing if they would make it crystal clear which rules are simply for discipline and training purposes, without any spiritual value of their own, and not try to place a non-intentional infraction of one of those on the same level as real spiritual problems, such as the pride or covetousness that Greg mentioned. When falling asleep in class (which I’m not saying is OK) is considered to be the same as direct disobedience, students learn the wrong lessons, and that’s a plain and simple fact.
All this to say I’m not sure what the best balance is for a college or other institution, but if wearing a watch on your fingertips instead of on your wrist is seen as rebellion, there is something very wrong going on.
Dave Barnhart
While a strict set of rules may be one effective optional method, it certainly isn’t the _only_ one. The military employs its method of training, and it is generally very effective. But not every institution incorporates those same methods. For one, military methods end up expelling some from its programs. A Biblical approach must vary its methods (1 Thess 5:14), not having the luxury of casting aside “undesirables” in the same sense the military does.
Yes, we do have to deal with “stupid rules.” That being said, we also need to function alongside “stupid Christians,” if you will, and will generally not always have the luxury of requiring adherence to a strict code at most levels (other than our immediate families as parents). I do think there can be a place for the strict institution- but it isn’t necessarily the “Biblical” way.
Yes, we do have to deal with “stupid rules.” That being said, we also need to function alongside “stupid Christians,” if you will, and will generally not always have the luxury of requiring adherence to a strict code at most levels (other than our immediate families as parents). I do think there can be a place for the strict institution- but it isn’t necessarily the “Biblical” way.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
I’m not sure what ya’ll are talking about when you use the term “stupid rules”, but I think a Christian institution that attempts to prepare students to deal with unreasonable people by acting in an unreasonable manner is violating Scriptural principle. I also don’t believe that one must experience something in a ‘controlled environment’ to be prepared for it to happen for real… and where would you draw the line? After all, a large percentage of women are going to experience violence of a sexual nature at some point in their lives- why not prepare them for that by having some college professors sexually harass the female students? Or appoint some male students to the Sexual Harassment Preparedness Team? The guys are going to have to face dealing with seductive women all their lives, so some of the more attractive female students could be chosen for the Sluts R Us Council on Male Purity. I’m exaggerating to prove a point (that was fun), but I don’t think Christian authority acting in an unChristian manner teaches students anything except to not have any respect for that institution, and to leave asap for saner pastures.
Now, strict academic requirements and standards of personal conduct are another thing entirely, and I don’t think those are stupid at all. But having a 4.0 GPA and abiding by all the externals can be done on autopilot by a committed church brat who isn’t even saved. Been there, done that. Shouldn’t do one and leave the other undone.
Now, strict academic requirements and standards of personal conduct are another thing entirely, and I don’t think those are stupid at all. But having a 4.0 GPA and abiding by all the externals can be done on autopilot by a committed church brat who isn’t even saved. Been there, done that. Shouldn’t do one and leave the other undone.
One problem is that school rules bleed over into the church and become unspoken rules of conduct. This works great if everyone went to the same school (or types of schools). But when you want to reach lost adults and the fruit of that endeavor (saved souls) are brought into the church to be assimilated, it creates conflict.
By the way …. you want discipline for you children …
By the way …. you want discipline for you children …
- Have it at home
- If you want more …. have them enlist to serve their country 1
I agree with Jim.
It was my parent’s job to teach me how to “put up or shut up.” It was not the school’s. I wonder if the viewpoint is not related to our extended adolescence combined with the informal “in loco parentis” viewpoint we use with Christian colleges.
It was my parent’s job to teach me how to “put up or shut up.” It was not the school’s. I wonder if the viewpoint is not related to our extended adolescence combined with the informal “in loco parentis” viewpoint we use with Christian colleges.
Discussion