"...(W)omen who have high views of modesty should also have equally high views of lines of authority and high views of the golden rule."
[Greg Linscott]The culture you describe (men visibly recoiling at an incidentally exposed midriff, for example) is not a particularly healthy or recommended means of managing temptation- or else we would have many men with whiplash, given what can be generally seen today.That wasn’t meant as a cultural recommendation or practice — that was just one poor man’s reaction when seeing bare flesh unexpectedly flashed a few inches from his face in church of all places.It’s not what he would purposefully do.While men avoiding known temptation is crucial in Scripture, the renewal of our minds is also important. Setting our affections where they ought while crucifying our fleshly lusts and passions are concepts that have definite application to this area. Because let’s face it- if your teenage son gets just about any summer job, he will encounter visual temptation. Virtually any man engaging the public, for that matter, will face temptations at one point or another- and “fleeing” is not always an option. A man must learn self-control- which is what I think Wilson’s overall point was.True, but I think the fact that guys are faced with this everywhere is one of the main reasons Christian women and young women shouldn’t make it any harder for them, a Christian woman’s testimony and reflection of Christ being the primary reason for modesty.
Thinking out loud…
Would the man you mentioned have recoiled in a similar way if it had been a young man? A grossly overweight individual? Is his response indicative of temptation of incitement to commit adultery in his heart?
When we talk about modesty in this context, it often seems to be with the idea that of preventing others (men) from lusting. How do we arrive at that conclusion from Scripture? The most commonly quoted verse in this conversation is 1 Tim 2:9, and the same word in the KJV translated “modest” appears scant verses later in 1 Tim 3:2 as “good behaviour.” Are bad behaving bishops providing a temptation for women to lust? :D
If women are to indeed rebuke other women for immodesty, does that include someone who is adequately covered but overly flaunting or flashy? Do you single out women with “broided hair” and “costly array”? How do you make that call?
On your last comment- it is a good thing for Christian young women not to make a spectacle of themselves, certainly. Still, speaking from experience, a young lady who is adequately covered is not going to prevent men with unrestrained hearts from lusting and having inappropriate thoughts. If anything, some twisted men might find a stereotypical “modestly attired” woman something of a special “turn-on.”
On your last comment- it is a good thing for Christian young women not to make a spectacle of themselves, certainly. Still, speaking from experience, a young lady who is adequately covered is not going to prevent men with unrestrained hearts from lusting and having inappropriate thoughts. If anything, some twisted men might find a stereotypical “modestly attired” woman something of a special “turn-on.”
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[Greg Linscott] Thinking out loud…Good grief, I don’t know. I did not interrogate him afterward. Wouldn’t any guy be shocked or startled or at least taken aback in that situation? I don’t think that indicates enticement to commit adultery.Would the man you mentioned have recoiled in a similar way if it had been a young man? A grossly overweight individual? Is his response indicative of temptation of incitement to commit adultery in his heart?
If the Bible teaches against men lusting, it seems only common sense that women not provoke them to it. True, some men will lust no matter what a woman has on, but when certain clothing styles are designed to attract a man’s attention to all the wrong places, conscientious Christian women would want to avoid them. But, as was said earlier, the primary reason for modesty is to honor the Lord.When we talk about modesty in this context, it often seems to be with the idea that of preventing others (men) from lusting. How do we arrive at that conclusion from Scripture? The most commonly quoted verse in this conversation is 1 Tim 2:9, and the same word in the KJV translated “modest” appears scant verses later in 1 Tim 3:2 as “good behaviour.” Are bad behaving bishops providing a temptation for women to lust? :D
I am not saying a woman should necessarily rebuke another woman for immodesty, I’m just saying it is not something that should never be done or is always done with wrong motives. If it does ever come to a rebuke, it should only be after prayer and giving the woman time to be under good preaching and teaching and example. Before someone ever rebuked a woman for immodesty, I would think the better approach is a coming alongside as a friend, an “I don’t know if you realize it, but …” type of thing, assuming she doesn’t know and isn’t doing it on purpose.If women are to indeed rebuke other women for immodesty, does that include someone who is adequately covered but overly flaunting or flashy? Do you single out women with “broided hair” and “costly array”? How do you make that call?
How does anyone make the call to rebuke anybody about anything? It’s not something that should be done lightly or easily or without carefulness and prayer. I don’t even know when the last time was that I rebuked anyone other than my own children.
Good grief, I don’t know. I did not interrogate him afterward. Wouldn’t any guy be shocked or startled or at least taken aback in that situation? I don’t think that indicates enticement to commit adultery.Ok… the way you originally described it, though, led me to believe that his response was due to the potential of inappropriate interest (lust… which Jesus describes as adultery in one’s heart) of the exposed body part. As I’m thinking out loud here, it strikes me that that may not have been the reason for his response.
If the Bible teaches against men lusting, it seems only common sense that women not provoke them to it. True, some men will lust no matter what a woman has on, but when certain clothing styles are designed to attract a man’s attention to all the wrong places, conscientious Christian women would want to avoid them. But, as was said earlier, the primary reason for modesty is to honor the Lord.That’s one of the points here- immodesty is not necessarily just “attract(ing) a man’s attention to all the wrong places.” That’s what is more described in Proverbs as “the attire of an harlot.” In the context of 1 Timothy 2, it seems to have more to do with not flaunting- which includes not “strutting your stuff,” so to speak, but also means that you don’t go out of your way to impress by the cost of your clothing and general adornment through hairstyles, jewelry, and so forth. It’s a warning against excess and an encouragement towards moderation. In that sense, modesty is to honor the Lord, yes- but it has more the mindset of the individual doing it in mind than those who might be seeing her. How does the woman view herself? How does God (through Paul’s words in 1 Tim 2) want her to be thinking about herself? How does the clothing help that?
To get to Nancy Wilson’s point- this isn’t how many people, especially women, see this conversation. They see it (as you have illustrated to some degree) as helping their husbands and sons and such.The point often missed seems to be the mindset and overall sanctification of the woman. This is why she is saying that the son needs to learn to defend himself- it’s about his heart, and how it needs to be shaped. The women in this situation needs to have their hearts shaped, too- which is why Wilson argues for the communication process she does.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[Susan R] I commented on her blog, but the gist of it was that her approach overlooked Gal. 6:1 and the role of older ladies as teachers in Titus 2. Of course, the problem is that everyone wants to think that they are spiritually mature enough to teach, rebuke, and correct others, when in fact very few are able to do so in true meekness and with the right motives. Also ignored is the prerequisite of being a good example oneself. The Modesty Police may be dressed in what most would consider modest apparel, but in my experience with this type of woman, she is usually the loudest and most obnoxious woman in the room at any given time, and thus may have been successful at covering her body, but not her brash and inappropriate behavior.While I agree with much of what Nancy said, I believe she overlooks the New Testament in some respects. I agree with Susan R. Family authority is repeated in the New Testament, but another authority is introduced — the Church. Within that, Gal. 6:1 states that those who are spiritual have a responsibility to help those who are stumbling. Titus 2 states that women have a responsibility to anyone younger in the faith than themselves. Our love must always be put into action!! I totally disagree with her notion that we should perhaps ignore or distance ourselves from a sinning sister (immodest), without first praying, being an example and lovingly confronting if needed. What loving purpose would ceasing to be around a person accomplish? Is there anywhere in the New Testament where that is commanded in the Church, except where steps of church discipline have taken place? (We are always called to be the pursuers, not the fleers!!) I recently went to a sister in the Lord, who has no husband, no father figure, and who is an adult, so that her mother is not the one in charge of her any longer, and I broached the subject of modesty by way of encouragement to “continue to consider Biblical modesty and desire to be an example to younger women who are looking on.” You see, I happen to know this gal has a tender heart for God, so the admonishment/rebuke approach is not needed at this point. But, I also knew that the Lord wanted me to bring up this issue to her. I left it there, for now, having given her a web site to consider. And, I continue to pray and love. Would it have come better from our pastor? Are you kidding? There are probably very few instances where a pastor would feel anything but immodest himself by confronting immodesty in a woman, individually to her face. But, can he do it from the pulpit? Yes, he can and should!! AND, if I went to our pastor about a specific person, he would consider it gossip if I had not first prayed and confronted her to her face — AND, he would tell me so!! Nancy R. has overlooked parts of the 2 greatest commands in the New Testament — Love and glorify God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Whatever fits into BOTH of those, fits into what God would want in these matters :)!! May God search our hearts and our motives and purify us to love and serve Him by loving and serving one another!
Amy Knoll
[Susan R] I commented on her blog, but the gist of it was that her approach overlooked Gal. 6:1 and the role of older ladies as teachers in Titus 2. Of course, the problem is that everyone wants to think that they are spiritually mature enough to teach, rebuke, and correct others, when in fact very few are able to do so in true meekness and with the right motives. Also ignored is the prerequisite of being a good example oneself. The Modesty Police may be dressed in what most would consider modest apparel, but in my experience with this type of woman, she is usually the loudest and most obnoxious woman in the room at any given time, and thus may have been successful at covering her body, but not her brash and inappropriate behavior.While I agree with much of what Nancy said, I believe she overlooks the New Testament in some respects. I agree with Susan R. Family authority is repeated in the New Testament, but another authority is introduced — the Church. Within that, Gal. 6:1 states that those who are spiritual have a responsibility to help those who are stumbling. Titus 2 states that women have a responsibility to anyone younger in the faith than themselves. Our love must always be put into action!! I totally disagree with her notion that we should perhaps ignore or distance ourselves from a sinning sister (immodest), without first praying, being an example and lovingly confronting if needed. What loving purpose would ceasing to be around a person accomplish? Is there anywhere in the New Testament where that is commanded in the Church, except where steps of church discipline have taken place? (We are always called to be the pursuers, not the fleers!!) I recently went to a sister in the Lord, who has no husband, no father figure, and who is an adult, so that her mother is not the one in charge of her any longer, and I broached the subject of modesty by way of encouragement to “continue to consider Biblical modesty and desire to be an example to younger women who are looking on.” You see, I happen to know this gal has a tender heart for God, so the admonishment/rebuke approach is not needed at this point. But, I also knew that the Lord wanted me to bring up this issue to her. I left it there, for now, having given her a web site to consider. And, I continue to pray and love. Would it have come better from our pastor? Are you kidding? There are probably very few instances where a pastor would feel anything but immodest himself by confronting immodesty in a woman, individually to her face. But, can he do it from the pulpit? Yes, he can and should!! AND, if I went to our pastor about a specific person, he would consider it gossip if I had not first prayed and confronted her to her face — AND, he would tell me so!! Nancy R. has overlooked parts of the 2 greatest commands in the New Testament — Love and glorify God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Whatever fits into BOTH of those, fits into what God would want in these matters :)!! May God search our hearts and our motives and purify us to love and serve Him by loving and serving one another!
Amy Knoll
[Teri Ploski]Thank you for sharing that!! What your daughter truly needs is fulfillment in Christ. 2 Pet. 1:3 tells us that we have everything we need for life and godliness in our knowledge of Christ!! Wow, that has been a huge blessing to me!! Maybe you could point your daughter to the sufficiency of Scripture in her life and encourage her to go “digging” there to find the treasures and deepen her relationship with her heavenly Father Who will never leave or forsake her and Who loves her so much that He died for her!! That’s powerful stuff!!But in the case of these girls, they had been in church all their lives, their parents were fine Christians, pillars of the church, their mom was as modest as could be, but I don’t know if the parents just didn’t see it or didn’t think it was immodest or what. I don’t know what you do in a situation like that.I just want to address this from the perspective of someone who is fighting a constant battle to get my daughter to dress what I would consider more appropriately. She does wear decent clothing to church (by our standards, however I’m sure some would say that they are NOT modest - e.g. jeans, shorts, tank tops or camis that worn with a coverup), but I often have to stop her short when we are leaving and urge her to go get a cover up or change. She’ll do it, but not always cheerfully. Don’t assume that the parents don’t see or don’t think some clothing is immodest. They could be dealing with much greater issues than just dress, I know we are. I just don’t have the energy to tackle all the issues at once, and the internal ones are MUCH more important than the externals.
We are having frequent conversations about clothing and the message that clothing sends. In fact yesterday we went to the gym. My daughter has a very nice figure, and she was in a tank and shorts (it was over 100 here yesterday, with humidity). Should she have been wearing something looser? Yes. But I used the opportunity to point out to her that the attention she as getting wasn’t necessarily that good. I asked her if she thought that the guys looking at her were ones she would want a relationship with. Her answer? Of course not! So I asked her why she was dressing in such a way as to attract that kind of attention? It made her stop and think, instead of judging her. (Problem is she likes the attention of males because of our past history. Her father left and pays no healthy attention to her, and her stepfather is afraid to interact in such a way that could be misinterpreted. My ex would love to take anything and make a federal case out of it, and I’m afraid he would as is my husband, so he errs on the side of less attention. He does compliment her and tries to build her up, but it’s a delicate balancing act. Wrongly so? Who knows. They (dh and dd) do have a good relationship, but my daughter desperately needs something else that we are unable to give her, so she looks elsewhere. Just an example of the fact that you have no idea what else parents are dealing with when you see how they “let their daughter dress.”)
Amy Knoll
Discussion