"The primary reason for this war against [Jesus] is He is interfering with the plan to make this a socialist nation. Mark it down. It is the truth."
But the quote there isn’t the best moment in the message. Probably sounds worse than it would in context. In general though, he is absolutely right. There is a definite agenda among the folks currently in power and it’s an agenda that derives from unbiblical beliefs about human nature, sin-related social problems, the role of government… and how to really help the poor.
(I’m reading Money, Greed and God by Jay W. Richards right now. I dare all Christian skeptics of the value of free markets to read it.)
Where the quote is weak is that the attack on Jesus is actually a much bigger war and socialism is a small component. So the “primary” reason has more to do with the cosmos that hated Christ and hates His followers, too—and the “god of this world.” But he’s really not too far off on that point.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura http://healtheland.wordpress.com
There is confusion of categories. All socialism is not diametrically opposed to Christianity. Some types are. Some of you believe you can prove Capitalism or Free-Market economy from Scripture. Well, OK, I suppose. I don’t see it. But saying it violates a Biblical principle is not the same as the kind of shrill rhetoric many hurl at Obama and his socialist agenda.
Is Obama a Christian? Almost certainly not.
Is he so sold on pluralism that he will directly challenge what he believes to be Christian hegemony in America? Surely.
Is he (knowingly or unknowingly) leading us toward socialism? Absolutely.
Is the current course of our nation going to produce economic devastation? Pretty sure. If not, everything economics says is wrong.
Is Obama the Anti-Christ (in the last-days sense)? Almost certainly not.
Will Jesus be returning shortly? Don’t know.
I add the last two not because of Pastor Stanley, but because the top 5 and bottom 2 are inextricably interwoven in the minds of many.
Last Sunday night, I spoke against the kind of Conservative Christianity that attempts to provoke terror in people over the state of America. I spoke from Psalm 11, where David’s counterweight to those wanting to be driven by fear when the wicked are taking over is the fact of the Lord’s power, awareness, and judgment.
These guys (meaning Christian Right leaders) use fear to rally the troops to get out the vote and fight the good fight, but they dilute our energies! If half of the passion put into the battle against Obama were put into evangelism, we’d be making a greater difference in this nation. So, I stand by my first statement: “What a waste of time!”
I recommend the book “Less than Conquerors: How Evangelicals Entered the 20th Century” by Douglas Franke. It’s out of print now, but generally available used. He makes a powerful case that the church seeking political influence is always associated with a loss of spiritual power.
If a pastor is going to address issues like these, it needs to be done even-handedly. Talk about NAFTA, China into the WTO and how both parties supported it. Talk about the U.N., the Federal Reserve, the IMF and the World Bank, and how both parties support those as well. Talk about how George W. Bush publicly supported Roe v. Wade, gay rights, claimed that Muslims and Christians serve the same God (Bush said that he prays to the same God as those with different religious beliefs), claims that the Bible was probably not literally true but teaches a lot of good moral things, and what it meant for our country that a president with this view of God and the Bible claimed that God told him to invade Iraq. And if one opposes socialism, then talk about Social Security, MediCare, public education (by that I mean their existence AND compulsory education laws, not just what public schools teach), farm programs and college financial aid. I am curious, for instance, if Pastor Stanley mentioned the socialist attacks on the gospel of Jesus Christ after George W. Bush enacted No Child Left Behind in public education, expanded MediCare to cover prescription drugs, and tried his level best to give amnesty to illegal immigrants. I also wonder how school vouchers, where taxpayer money is used to subsidize - and also heavily regulate - “private” and religious education doesn’t qualify. Incidentally, one should note how many regulations that taxpayer supported private and religious schools in England and France and have to put up with.
Some Christians are looking for ways to opt out of ObamaCare. But how many of them are opting out of Social Security and MediCare, send their children to private schools and refuse to use Pell Grants and similar to help defray the cost of college education? And as for the idea that it is time for Christians to be concerned about this country … was there ever a time NOT to be? If so, when? 1800? 1850? 1950? 1983? 2005? If not, why not? These issues need to be addressed consistently and even-handedly. Otherwise, it is just party politicking.
Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura http://healtheland.wordpress.com
As for inconsistency on opposing Ocare vs. social security etc., I think thats valid criticism, but many did not recognize SS and MCare for what they were back in the day but do now and do not want to see “more of the same” kind of expansion of gov’t. and loss of freedom. So, in a way, SS and MCare are a big part of why many are so passionately opposed to Ocare.
As for “the church seeking political influence is always associated with a loss of spiritual power,” … I don’t know about that either way. What I do know is that we ought to teach people to think biblically about these matters and not neglect them because they seem “political.”
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Roger Carlson, PastorBerean Baptist Church
[JobK] AI’ve recently had this discussion on a yahoo group where I’m a member.
And if one opposes socialism, then talk about Social Security, MediCare, public education (by that I mean their existence AND compulsory education laws, not just what public schools teach), farm programs and college financial aid. I am curious, for instance, if Pastor Stanley mentioned the socialist attacks on the gospel of Jesus Christ after George W. Bush enacted No Child Left Behind in public education, expanded MediCare to cover prescription drugs, and tried his level best to give amnesty to illegal immigrants. I also wonder how school vouchers, where taxpayer money is used to subsidize - and also heavily regulate - “private” and religious education doesn’t qualify.send their children to private schools and refuse to use Pell Grants and similar to help defray the cost of college education?
So where does it stop? What about using public or government facilities? Playgrounds, public libraries, roads, tax rebates where you get more back than you actually paid in, child care tax credit, earned income tax credit, WIC, free immunizations at the health department, government paid for flu shots, after-hurricane-emergency-disaster funds, the recent “cash for clunkers” program, going to public colleges, community colleges, adult ed programs at your local school, etc? What counts as socialism or just the government helping its citizens?
Do you believe the Christian is somehow obligated to “not use” what the government offers? If so, why? We are obligated to pay our income taxes, social security taxes and our state sales taxes. At what point is it all a “return on our investment”? (no matter how bad of a return)
And as Christians we must be informed regarding such matters. If certain forms of government move away from or threaten the premiums we now have which extend clearly to our freedom, without governmental interference or retribution, of Christian expression then I would weigh carefully the wholesale condemnation of such instructions by a teacher of Scripture. One might identify elements with which they disagree but objecting to the premise on which such instructions are given, I believe is on rather brittle ground.
If a pastor is going to address issues like these, it needs to be done even-handedly. Talk about NAFTA, China into the WTO and how both parties supported it. Talk about the U.N., the Federal Reserve, the IMF and the World Bank, and how both parties support those as well.Suggest that Pastor stick to teaching the Word of God
[Mike Durning]I ordered this book based on your recommendation, so I’m holding you responsible if it’s not worth the 7 dollars. By the way, it is back in print in a slightly different title by Wipf & Stock.
I recommend the book “Less than Conquerors: How Evangelicals Entered the 20th Century” by Douglas Franke. It’s out of print now, but generally available used. He makes a powerful case that the church seeking political influence is always associated with a loss of spiritual power.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
[Mike Durning] He makes a powerful case that the church seeking political influence is always associated with a loss of spiritual power.True!
[Jim Peet] Suggest that Pastor(s) stick to teaching the Word of GodAmen!
CanJAmerican - my blog
CanJAmerican - my twitter
whitejumaycan - my youtube
[Jim Peet] Little room for exegetical study in this listAgreed. That is one sense in which I posted that I thought this entire exercise was a waste of time. I had too much experience with the kind of preaching that just “tells it like it is” with a verse attached (or mis-attached) to justify it. We need exposition!
…Suggest that Pastor stick to teaching the Word of God
The other sense in which I believe it is a waste of time is that we (conservative Christians or “the Christian Right”) spent decades trying to push this thing in the other direction directly. We elect candidates who will “stand against abortion”. We get almost nothing. We elect candidates who will “stem the tide”. We get “negotiation”.
There’s a reason why every presidential candidate since Carter has claimed to be a Christian (many of these claims I find dubious). If you require spirituality of your politicians as a price for your vote, you will get a mantle of spirituality. It’s their nature.
It’s time to focus on prayer, evangelism and revival (in the truest sense of the words). A new Great Awakening would do more for America than any conservative political victory.
[Charlie]Back in print! Hurrah![Mike Durning]I ordered this book based on your recommendation, so I’m holding you responsible if it’s not worth the 7 dollars. By the way, it is back in print in a slightly different title by Wipf & Stock.
I recommend the book “Less than Conquerors: How Evangelicals Entered the 20th Century” by Douglas Franke. It’s out of print now, but generally available used. He makes a powerful case that the church seeking political influence is always associated with a loss of spiritual power.
Hold me responsible indeed! I buy it used to give to pastor friends all the time. I’ve given away about 10 copies over the years. If you don’t like it, send it to me. I’ll buy it from you and give it to someone else.
Discussion