Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary: Caner out as Dean ... retained as faculty member
Maybe there’s a town called Turkey, OH…
[Jim Peet] http://thelightheartedcalvinist.com/2010/06/28/attn-liberty-university-…Perhaps the lighthearted calvinist needs some lessons in logic. Or maybe he just needs to learn to read. The statement doesn’t say “facts that are self-contradictory”, but “factual statements that are self-contradictory”. The thing he is railing against is something different from what was said.
“factual statements that are self-contradictory” …is logical nonsense. “Facts” that contradict themselves are no facts at all.
Of course, if the PHIL 210 class teaches that facts can contradict themselves, perhaps a logic class at another institution would be in order.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
“factual statements that are self-contradictory” …
Perhaps the lighthearted calvinist needs some lessons in logic. Or maybe he just needs to learn to read. The statement doesn’t say “facts that are self-contradictory”, but “factual statements that are self-contradictory”. The thing he is railing against is something different from what was said.Don - the Liberty U. statement is logically fallacious. In my previous post I made the same observation as the post you were responding to did. LU said that he made “factual statements.” If they are factual statements, they must be true. He made erroneous statements presented as fact. The LU statement should have, at very least, been worded that Caner had made “statements of fact.” Not only that, but the statements were not “self-contradictory.” They were contradictory. Two statements, compared with each other, cannot be self-contradictory.
The whole situation is a travesty. How LU ( I am a LU grad - don’t tell anyone!) can sweep this under the rug is amazing. Caner’s whole career has been based on his self-promotion via whopping lies. He needs to be sent packing!
Perhaps the lighthearted calvinist needs some lessons in logic. Or maybe he just needs to learn to read. The statement doesn’t say “facts that are self-contradictory”, but “factual statements that are self-contradictory”. The thing he is railing against is something different from what was said.Don - the Liberty U. statement is logically fallacious. In my previous post I made the same observation as the post you were responding to did. LU said that he made “factual statements.” If they are factual statements, they must be true. He made erroneous statements presented as fact. The LU statement should have, at very least, been worded that Caner had made “statements of fact.” Not only that, but the statements were not “self-contradictory.” They were contradictory. Two statements, compared with each other, cannot be self-contradictory.
The whole situation is a travesty. How LU ( I am a LU grad - don’t tell anyone!) can sweep this under the rug is amazing. Caner’s whole career has been based on his self-promotion via whopping lies. He needs to be sent packing!
Twitter: GodsLaw1 *** www.peterlaitres.net ***
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” - Galatians 2:21HCSB
Peter, I agree the whole thing is a travesty, and perhaps the statement could have been better worded, but “factual” could be modifying “statements” just as your “statements of fact” does. That’s the way I took it. A factual statement is not the same thing as a fact.
But the whole LU thing itself is a joke. It is incredible to me that they have the size of student body they do. If Caner is evidence of overall commitment to excellence, wow!
But the whole LU thing itself is a joke. It is incredible to me that they have the size of student body they do. If Caner is evidence of overall commitment to excellence, wow!
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Don,
Not trying to be miserable, but “factual statements” are understood to be statements that are true and factual. One can make a statement of fact, which would obviously be what Caner said that was purported to be factual. In LU’s release, they clearly said he made “factual statements.” I believe they worded it this way on purpose to blur the issue of Caner’s rampant lies. When a third party - LU - says he made “factual statements,” it implies that the statements were true. When we say one made statements of fact, it is assumed that they may or may not be true, but the person who made them alleges that the statements are.
The illogical part is clearly that two (or more) statements given apart from one another that contradict each other are not “self-contradicting.” If I said “I have never eaten a hamburger but the one I had two weeks ago was great,” that is self contradictory. If I said in one statement, “I never eat hamburgers,” but then said in another statement, “I had a great hamburger two weeks ago,” the statements are not self-contraditory but merely contradictory.
Not trying to be miserable, but “factual statements” are understood to be statements that are true and factual. One can make a statement of fact, which would obviously be what Caner said that was purported to be factual. In LU’s release, they clearly said he made “factual statements.” I believe they worded it this way on purpose to blur the issue of Caner’s rampant lies. When a third party - LU - says he made “factual statements,” it implies that the statements were true. When we say one made statements of fact, it is assumed that they may or may not be true, but the person who made them alleges that the statements are.
The illogical part is clearly that two (or more) statements given apart from one another that contradict each other are not “self-contradicting.” If I said “I have never eaten a hamburger but the one I had two weeks ago was great,” that is self contradictory. If I said in one statement, “I never eat hamburgers,” but then said in another statement, “I had a great hamburger two weeks ago,” the statements are not self-contraditory but merely contradictory.
Twitter: GodsLaw1 *** www.peterlaitres.net ***
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” - Galatians 2:21HCSB
Twitter: GodsLaw1 *** www.peterlaitres.net ***
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” - Galatians 2:21HCSB
About the “self-contradictory” part…
But I guess we are straining at gnats, the real problem is the fabrications, not contradicting facts or statements of fact or factual statements.
But I guess we are straining at gnats, the real problem is the fabrications, not contradicting facts or statements of fact or factual statements.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
from Tom Chantry
http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/06/declaration-from-liberty.html
http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/06/declaration-from-liberty.html
The Ergun Caner’s of the world are not going away because one of them was caught. The peddlers of falsehood will continue to plague the church. They can only be thwarted when we stop exalting talented ministers without regard for truth or character, when we demand that preachers give us Christ and the Scriptures rather than anecdotes and jokes, when we recover a sense of the glory of God in worship and put away our crass desire for entertainment, and when we trust God to give growth to the church rather than put our faith in men and programs.
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http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/06/and-finney-begat-caner.html
Finney’s name has begun to pop up around the blogosphere in connection with Ergun Caner, Liberty University’s erstwhile Islam expert. Some in the metas have called him “a modern-day Finney” while others have stopped short of that and accused him only of being heavily influenced by Finney. I have been as clear as I can that Charles Finney was a godless heretic, so I must be very slow in drawing the first conclusion. Where does Caner fit in Finney’s abundant household?
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[JohnBrian]Thank you very much for your summary. It was very helpful to me.
A little background - Caner was a professor in Dallas at http://www.criswell.edu/ Criswell College . After 09/11 he and one of his 2 brothers (Emir) came to prominence as self-proclaimed “former devout Muslims.” That opened the door for him to speak in many churches and many other places (and he is a very charismatic speaker). His personal testimony (which was a large part of his celebrity) was that he was born and raised in Muslim countries, trained in Jihad, learned about America from TV, came to America as a teen, got saved, debated many people from many faiths, etc. He came to the attention of Jerry Falwell and has been the President of Liberty Seminary for a few years.
BUT, most of his testimony is a lie. The evidence shows that he came to America before he was 4 years old, which discredits a major portion of his testimony, and there is no evidence that he debated anyone, unless he is counting conversations with people as debates. A Muslim started pointing out his lies using video and audio in which he tells contradicting stories. That led to some Christians doing some research to check his facts and finding out that he has lied repeatedly to many congregations.
You beat me to posting this. It is a great article that directs our attention to examining ourselves and our churches.
[JohnBrian] http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/06/and-finney-begat-caner.htmlFinney’s name has begun to pop up around the blogosphere in connection with Ergun Caner, Liberty University’s erstwhile Islam expert. Some in the metas have called him “a modern-day Finney” while others have stopped short of that and accused him only of being heavily influenced by Finney. I have been as clear as I can that Charles Finney was a godless heretic, so I must be very slow in drawing the first conclusion. Where does Caner fit in Finney’s abundant household?
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Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
What was the issue with Finney? Someone please enlighten me.
Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura http://healtheland.wordpress.com
http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/06/encountering-charles-finney.html Encountering Charles Finney
By no stretch of the imagination could Finney’s Systematic Theology be considered a Christian book, for Christ is as absent from its pages as is God. Finney’s christ is the son of god who became man to show us the way to heaven. There is no actual lecture on christ, so the reader might be understandably confused as to exactly what Finney taught about his nature. There are, however, two lectures on the atonement. Most of the material there is a refutation of the Christian doctrine of atonement, which Finney mischaracterizes as a “commercial transaction.”http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/06/charles-finneys-stepchildren.html Charles Finney’s Stepchildren
In place of this transaction Finney presents a theory of the atonement which he calls the satisfaction of public justice. The idea is that god was so mad at the world that he could not even consider the good works of men until some public gesture had been undertaken to satisfy his need to be just in public. Finney’s god therefore allows christ to be crucified to satisfy what seems to be a rather petty, juvenile need to appear tough. Once christ had died god could look upon the deeds of men and evaluate them according to their conformity to his moral governance.
Furthermore, the methodology which Finney developed and popularized was a natural extension of his doctrine. He truly believed that any man could save himself through righteousness, but that to embark upon that life a sinner must make a crisis-generated decision to follow God’s rules. Finney was an expert at producing that crisis. He invented the altar call as a means of creating escalating pressure on his hearers until they were driven to make the decision which would save them from hellfire.The 3rd article is the Caner article above, and there should be a 4th article in the next few days or weeks
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[Don Johnson] About the “self-contradictory” part…Half-way Thanks! ;) But I posit that the real problem is how Christians, particularly in my experience those in the larger works, no longer care about the truth at all. LU/TRBC is now the poster boy for this philosophy. Caner did what he did and should be removed from any ministry whatsoever. I guess the Obama doctrine is alive in well in Lynchburg: TOO BIG TO FAIL!
But I guess we are straining at gnats, the real problem is the fabrications, not contradicting facts or statements of fact or factual statements.
So I believe there are at least two major issues here that are equally serious: Christian Celebrity Caner spreading lies in the interest of self-promotion and lack of LU/TRBC to take BIBLICAL and appropriate action.
“I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.”
(1 John 2:21 KJV)
Twitter: GodsLaw1 *** www.peterlaitres.net ***
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” - Galatians 2:21HCSB
http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/05/caner-file.html The Caner File
November 3, 1966 – Ergun Caner is born in Stockholm, Sweden, to Acar and Monica Caner, who had been married on April 1st that same year. (Source: Acar’s and Monica’s separation agreement, Ergun Caner’s Facebook page (now a dead link))Shows that Caner came to America sometime before or shortly after his 3rd birthday, not as a teenager as he has claimed.
July 16, 1968 – Ergun’s younger brother, Erdem (Mark), is born in Stockholm, Sweden. (No internet source)
Sometime in 1969 – The Caner family moves from Stockholm, Sweden, to Columbus, Ohio. (Source: Monica Caner’s sworn affidavit dated July 31, 1975.)
August 25, 1970 – Emir Caner is born in Columbus, Ohio. (Source: Emir Caner’s Official Biography.)
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