"Is Cremation Christian"?

The article, “Is Cremation Christian?” is an excellent article that treats why the pagan practice of cremation is not Christian.

Poll Results

“Is Cremation Christian”?

Cremation is not legitimate for Christians. Votes: 1
Cremation is legitimate for Christians. Votes: 12

(Migrated poll)

N/A
0% (0 votes)
Total votes: 0

Discussion

[RajeshG]

God teaches us in many passages in both Testaments that He has not given us in Scripture exhaustive information about the sinful practices of human beings.

Yes, He chose not to put anything about cremation explicitly in the Mosaic Law because it was unthinkable based on what He did provide them with in the Law.

Moreover, God’s people had prophets who knew God supernaturally and gave His people clear direction long before they had any written Scripture. It is impossible that none of them ever knew what did and did not please God concerning the final disposition of dead bodies.

Moses was one such prophet. Moses knew exactly what would and would not please God about the final disposition of human bodies. What we see uniformly in Scripture about His people being buried and not cremated attests to the guidance that he and other godly prophets have given to God’s people in that very area.

Yes, God gave prophets to his people before they had written Scripture. What has God given to us today? Do we have record of all the non-scripture directions God gave his people? Of course not. All we have is what God chose to reveal to us in the Scripture regarding His acceptance or non-acceptance of things or activities.

If we see something uniformly in Scripture, such as the use of animals to harvest fields, are we to assume that no other methods of harvesting are acceptable to God? God gave directions to the Israelites regarding treatment of animals as they harvested fields, but he didn’t give a specific command that they were to use animals. Maybe such a command did come directly from a prophet, but God chose not to reveal that to us in Scripture, so we certainly wouldn’t be responsible for obeying it. Even if God had given such a command directly in the Mosaic Law, that wouldn’t automatically mean we are supposed to obey it today. It’s the same way with burial. Sure, God may have given a command to be buried through the prophets, but such a command, if it even existed, was not written in Scripture for our edification. We have no way of knowing if it was ever given. The uniformity of practice doesn’t compel us to understand there was a direct command.

Do you think that everything that Israel practiced uniformly, from what they ate to what they wore to what their occupations were and how they built dwellings, was all directly commanded by the prophets?

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

Can you show me some Scripture that tells us the value of the human body after man’s spirit has left it? When man’s spirit leaves, the Holy Spirit would also be leaving, so one can’t use “temple of God” arguments to say the body has value after death.

Is that so?

You made the assertion. You have to prove it.

Now you’re just being silly. If you don’t see the Holy Spirit leaving the body at death, then explain how you come to that position from Scripture. I don’t see any Scriptural support for the Holy Spirit staying in the body. If you think such support exists, then that is your assertion which you must prove.

Ad hominem (“Now you’re just being silly.”) is not argumentation. This is exactly what you said:

When man’s spirit leaves, the Holy Spirit would also be leaving, so one can’t use “temple of God” arguments to say the body has value after death. [bold added to original]

You made the assertion. Prove it.

I wasn’t using the “silly” comment as argumentation. It was just observation. If you have a problem with my comment about the Holy Spirit, prove it wrong. The Holy Spirit was given to believers as a Comforter. I don’t see any sense in which a dead body needs such comfort as what the Holy Spirit provided. The Holy Spirit gives believers spiritual gifts. I don’t see the dead body using spiritual gifts any longer. Romans 8:16 tells us “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.” If our spirit is no longer in our body to experience this work of the Holy Spirit, then why would the Holy Spirit stay in the body?

I do not have an opinion one way or the other concerning the bones, I just wanted clarification on others opinions. If someone is concerned about pagan associations, I would think that embalming would be just as concerning as cremation, but I do not suggest that either is sinful.

2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
(NASB)

1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
(NASB)

[JD Miller]

2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
(NASB)

1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
(NASB)

How are these verses relevant and what do you think they mean about whether the Spirit leaves the body of a believer at death?

[RajeshG]

No, I do not believe that it would be acceptable to destroy the body by burning but leave the bones intact. Having said that, it seems that you might agree with me that it is absolutely essential that the bones of dead humans not be destroyed by any man-made means.

Given that Heb. 11:22 reveals divine commendation of the faith revealed in Joseph’s giving charge to ensure that his bones would be buried in the Promised Land even though he knew that his body would be (and was) embalmed beforehand in Egypt, I do not take a position of being strongly against embalming.

The inconsistency of your position is odd to me. You are not strongly opposed to mutilating a dead body by taking the organs out and artificially prolonging the decay process, yet you consider it a vile practice to use fire to speed up the decay process. One would think that a person who is against one practice would also be against the other.

[Kevin Miller]… One would think …

ah. Yes. One would think… Thinking is sometimes rare.

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

No, I do not believe that it would be acceptable to destroy the body by burning but leave the bones intact. Having said that, it seems that you might agree with me that it is absolutely essential that the bones of dead humans not be destroyed by any man-made means.

Given that Heb. 11:22 reveals divine commendation of the faith revealed in Joseph’s giving charge to ensure that his bones would be buried in the Promised Land even though he knew that his body would be (and was) embalmed beforehand in Egypt, I do not take a position of being strongly against embalming.

The inconsistency of your position is odd to me. You are not strongly opposed to mutilating a dead body by taking the organs out and artificially prolonging the decay process, yet you consider it a vile practice to use fire to speed up the decay process. One would think that a person who is against one practice would also be against the other.

Did you not read what I wrote in my second paragraph? We have explicit divine commendation in a NT epistle for what Joseph ordained concerning his bones that led to their being ultimately buried in the Promised Land. God commended him in the NT for taking those necessary steps to have his bones buried in the Promised Land even though God knew that Joseph’s body had been embalmed.
Paying attention to what we have explicitly revealed to us in the NT shows that Joseph’s making that choice did not preclude his being commended by God for having his bones preserved and ultimately buried.
Furthermore, although you and others seek to deny what Amos 2 reveals, we have clear revelation in that passage of fierce divine condemnation of people who burned the bones of a human being to powder. You do not get to dismiss that prophetic revelation of God’s judgment by merely saying that we do not have the full context, etc. The fact stands that what we do have points clearly to God’s fierce rejection of the burning of human bones to powder.
We also have several passages where God condemns fiercely those who burned humans in fire as offerings to their gods. Such people were not just killed by that fire—their bodies were cremated to ashes after they died.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

No, I do not believe that it would be acceptable to destroy the body by burning but leave the bones intact. Having said that, it seems that you might agree with me that it is absolutely essential that the bones of dead humans not be destroyed by any man-made means.

Given that Heb. 11:22 reveals divine commendation of the faith revealed in Joseph’s giving charge to ensure that his bones would be buried in the Promised Land even though he knew that his body would be (and was) embalmed beforehand in Egypt, I do not take a position of being strongly against embalming.

The inconsistency of your position is odd to me. You are not strongly opposed to mutilating a dead body by taking the organs out and artificially prolonging the decay process, yet you consider it a vile practice to use fire to speed up the decay process. One would think that a person who is against one practice would also be against the other.

Did you not read what I wrote in my second paragraph? We have explicit divine commendation in a NT epistle for what Joseph ordained concerning his bones that led to their being ultimately buried in the Promised Land. God commended him in the NT for taking those necessary steps to have his bones buried in the Promised Land even though God knew that Joseph’s body had been embalmed.

Paying attention to what we have explicitly revealed to us in the NT shows that Joseph’s making that choice did not preclude His being commended by God for having his bones preserved and ultimately buried.

Yes, I read what you wrote in your second paragraph, but your comment about Joseph’s bones being buried does not excuse your inconsistency regarding embalming. Why would embalming be acceptable to God if cremation isn’t? The passage itself doesn’t say either way whether God considered the embalming part to be acceptable or not, so why is it your position that embalming is acceptable?

You said earlier that “The natural deterioration of the body is God’s business.” So why wouldn’t embalming be considered to be “arrogating authority that God has not given to humans,” since embalming disrupts the natural deterioration of the body?

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

No, I do not believe that it would be acceptable to destroy the body by burning but leave the bones intact. Having said that, it seems that you might agree with me that it is absolutely essential that the bones of dead humans not be destroyed by any man-made means.

Given that Heb. 11:22 reveals divine commendation of the faith revealed in Joseph’s giving charge to ensure that his bones would be buried in the Promised Land even though he knew that his body would be (and was) embalmed beforehand in Egypt, I do not take a position of being strongly against embalming.

The inconsistency of your position is odd to me. You are not strongly opposed to mutilating a dead body by taking the organs out and artificially prolonging the decay process, yet you consider it a vile practice to use fire to speed up the decay process. One would think that a person who is against one practice would also be against the other.

Did you not read what I wrote in my second paragraph? We have explicit divine commendation in a NT epistle for what Joseph ordained concerning his bones that led to their being ultimately buried in the Promised Land. God commended him in the NT for taking those necessary steps to have his bones buried in the Promised Land even though God knew that Joseph’s body had been embalmed.

Paying attention to what we have explicitly revealed to us in the NT shows that Joseph’s making that choice did not preclude His being commended by God for having his bones preserved and ultimately buried.

Yes, I read what you wrote in your second paragraph, but your comment about Joseph’s bones being buried does not excuse your inconsistency regarding embalming. Why would embalming be acceptable to God if cremation isn’t? The passage itself doesn’t say either way whether God considered the embalming part to be acceptable or not, so why is it your position that embalming is acceptable?

You said earlier that “The natural deterioration of the body is God’s business.” So why wouldn’t embalming be considered to be “arrogating authority that God has not given to humans,” since embalming disrupts the natural deterioration of the body?

You are misrepresenting me. I have not said that “embalming is acceptable.” I said that “I do not take a position of being strongly against embalming [bold, underlining added] ” and that I do so because of what Heb. 11:22 reveals. Had Heb. 11:22 not been in the Bible, my position would be different. God revealed that passage for our profit so I am accounting for it in what I say.
You are still not understanding properly the significance of of Heb. 11:22. Regardless of whether God regarded Joseph’s embalming to be acceptable or not, God still explicitly commended him for what he did that concerned the preservation of his bones and led to their ultimate burial in the Promised Land even though his body was embalmed.
What God has revealed to us does not provide us with any certainty of His perspective on Joseph’s being embalmed. I am reflecting that uncertainty by not opposing it strongly.

[RajeshG]

Archaeologists have unearthed parts of a nine thousand-year-old individual’s body in Israel who was burned or cremated in a ritualistic way. This discovery has established a new milestone for the oldest known cremation ever found in the Near East. A new paper published on PLoS ONE by a team of scientists from the French National Centre for Scientific Research , says the young adult’s burned remains were discovered in a pit in northern Israel that they’ve dated to between 7013 BC and 6700 BC. This remarkable discovery represents “The oldest known cremation in the Middle East .”

This historical evidence proves that cremation was not unknown or unpracticed in the ancient Near East.

It also shows that the arguments that have been used against me to assert that I have not handled the Scripture properly because of my supposed lack of proper attention to the culture and geography of the ancient Near East were invalid arguments.

Rajesh, read that blurb carefully. What it tells us is that thousands of years before Abraham arrived in Israel, a man’s body was burned “in a ritualistic way”, which suggests it was not a cremation in the modern (or even the Roman) sense, but rather a rather macabre burnt offering, possibly started when the victim was still alive in the hideous tradition of the worship of Molech.

What you’re doing, Rajesh, is grabbing onto any piece of evidence which can possibly be construed to support your position, but you’re not doing the necessary analysis to figure out what it actually means. Congratulations; you’re proving my point that for whatever reason, you’re not capable of doing decent Biblical analysis.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

[Bert Perry]

Rajesh, read that blurb carefully.

Save us both the time and make whatever point you think needs to be made.

For those who are following along - yes, this is the third time I completely change this post. I couldn’t decide which direction I wanted to go.

To me, more important than the conversation about cremation is the realization we all have - we seem puzzled about how RajeshG interprets scripture. He is completely convinced that he is correct, so much so that he calls something sin that God never does, despite warnings in scripture about doing just that.

I know he will see this comment, and I hope it will generate a separate discussion so that we may all better understand how he approaches, interprets, and applies scripture. It may help those of us who disagree with him possibly see our own shortcomings, and perhaps it may also help him in some way. As brothers in Christ, we should all be able to “sharpen” one another because we all know that none of is perfect in our thinking.

Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)

[Bert Perry]

Rajesh, read that blurb carefully. What it tells us is that thousands of years before Abraham arrived in Israel, a man’s body was burned “in a ritualistic way”, which suggests it was not a cremation in the modern (or even the Roman) sense, but rather a rather macabre burnt offering, possibly started when the victim was still alive in the hideous tradition of the worship of Molech.

What you’re doing, Rajesh, is grabbing onto any piece of evidence which can possibly be construed to support your position, but you’re not doing the necessary analysis to figure out what it actually means. Congratulations; you’re proving my point that for whatever reason, you’re not capable of doing decent Biblical analysis.

What it tell us is that people in biblical times did have enough fuel to cremate people in the very geographical location for which you have very erroneously claimed that cremation was not practiced and even unknown because of a supposed shortage of wood.

It also shows that people did cremate people back then in that location in a way at least somewhat similar to how millions of people have been and are still being cremated today in some parts of the world using fire without the pulverizing of the bones to reduce the body to powder.

I have now decisively refuted those claims of yours about ancient Israel with actual historical evidence. It’s time that you acknowledge the falsity of those claims of yours.

I have now refuted your notions (concerning Israel in biblical times) biblically in many ways and historically with this actual documented evidence.

[RajeshG]

You are still not understanding properly the significance of of Heb. 11:22. Regardless of whether God regarded Joseph’s embalming to be acceptable or not, God still explicitly commended him for what he did that concerned the preservation of his bones and led to their ultimate burial in the Promised Land even though his body was embalmed.

I’m not sure what “significance” you think I’m not properly understanding? I don’t see any significance in the verse regarding embalming, so I’m really not sure why this verse affects your judgment about man arrogating God’s authority in the natural deterioration of the body. There IS significance in what Joseph’s actions say about his faith, which is what the verse is directly about. Joseph had faith that the Israelites would one day leave Egypt to return to the promised land, and thus he would be able to have a “family burial.” So if burial itself is part of the significance, then this verse shows that it is “family burial” which is significant. After all, he already did have a burial in Egypt, but that wasn’t good enough for him. It was very, very important for him to be buried with his family.

What God has revealed to us does not provide us with any certainty of His perspective on Joseph’s being embalmed. I am reflecting that uncertainty by not opposing it strongly.
The same thing can be said about the account of Saul and his sons. What God has revealed to us does not provide us with any certainty of His perspective on Saul and his sons being cremated. We can reflect that uncertainty by not opposing cremation strongly.

[RajeshG]
RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

If these people were so wicked that they devotedly burned living people in fire, there is no difficulty understanding that they also burned the dead bodies of people in fire. God did not need to mention cremation or condemn it because He mentioned something far worse that was exceedingly similar to it and because He denounced in the strongest possible terms that exceedingly wicked practice of the wicked peoples in the Promised Land.

[The following is a comment made by Kevin Miller that was made in the other thread.]

This is a real stretch and a huge leap of logic. You’re basically saying that because God condemns murder by fire, God must also condemn cremation. How is it that you figure cremation is “exceedingly similar” to murder?

Burning living people in fire as offerings to false gods did not just kill those people by fire—it also destroyed their bodies after they had died and did so by burning those dead bodies until they were reduced to ashes.

Where does the Bible say that people who were offered to false gods were burned “until they were reduced to ashes”?

That may be so, but the Bible doesn’t say that, so we can’t really include that assumption (and it IS only an assumption) into the evil of murdering someone in worship of a false god. Murder and false worship are bad enough (both are specifically condemned in the Bible) without making the leap of logic that the body was reduced to ashes or that there is some evil in fire reducing a dead body to ashes.

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

If these people were so wicked that they devotedly burned living people in fire, there is no difficulty understanding that they also burned the dead bodies of people in fire. God did not need to mention cremation or condemn it because He mentioned something far worse that was exceedingly similar to it and because He denounced in the strongest possible terms that exceedingly wicked practice of the wicked peoples in the Promised Land.

[The following is a comment made by Kevin Miller that was made in the other thread.]

This is a real stretch and a huge leap of logic. You’re basically saying that because God condemns murder by fire, God must also condemn cremation. How is it that you figure cremation is “exceedingly similar” to murder?

Burning living people in fire as offerings to false gods did not just kill those people by fire—it also destroyed their bodies after they had died and did so by burning those dead bodies until they were reduced to ashes.

Where does the Bible say that people who were offered to false gods were burned “until they were reduced to ashes”?

That may be so, but the Bible doesn’t say that, so we can’t really include that assumption (and it IS only an assumption) into the evil of murdering someone in worship of a false god. Murder and false worship are bad enough (both are specifically condemned in the Bible) without making the leap of logic that the body was reduced to ashes or that there is some evil in fire reducing a dead body to ashes.

Scripture never speaks of a sacrifice by fire as only intended to kill what was sacrificed but not consume what was sacrificed. If you want to claim that the statements about human sacrifices by fire in Scripture are only information about putting people to death, you have the burden of proof for showing that was true in those cases.

Moreover, Genesis 22 provides us an explicit account of a potential human sacrifice as a burnt offering that God prevented from actually being completed. In that account, Abraham first tied up Isaac on the wood for the sacrifice and then was going to kill him with a knife before he then would have burned him in the fire. That account shows that burning people in fire in offerings need not even mean that they were thrown alive into the fire.

Rather, based on what we see throughout Scripture about offerings by fire (both by godly people and ungodly people), what was offered was actually first slain before being offered up as a sacrifice by fire.

Every time in such sacrifices that the victim was killed first and then burned in the fire was the cremation of their dead bodies.
For example, the king of Moab cremated the body of his eldest son when he offered him for a burnt offering:
2 Kings 3:27 Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

You are still not understanding properly the significance of of Heb. 11:22. Regardless of whether God regarded Joseph’s embalming to be acceptable or not, God still explicitly commended him for what he did that concerned the preservation of his bones and led to their ultimate burial in the Promised Land even though his body was embalmed.

I’m not sure what “significance” you think I’m not properly understanding? I don’t see any significance in the verse regarding embalming, so I’m really not sure why this verse affects your judgment about man arrogating God’s authority in the natural deterioration of the body. There IS significance in what Joseph’s actions say about his faith, which is what the verse is directly about. Joseph had faith that the Israelites would one day leave Egypt to return to the promised land, and thus he would be able to have a “family burial.” So if burial itself is part of the significance, then this verse shows that it is “family burial” which is significant. After all, he already did have a burial in Egypt, but that wasn’t good enough for him. It was very, very important for him to be buried with his family.

Regarding “family burial,” I have already provided two explicit examples of people who were not buried with their families. Below are two more.

1. Rachel

Genesis 35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Genesis 48:7 And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan in the way, when yet there was but a little way to come unto Ephrath: and I buried her there in the way of Ephrath; the same is Bethlehem.

The text does not say that she was buried with any family in any family burial location.

We know from later Scripture that Jacob was not buried where she was when he died:

Gen. 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.

2. Samuel

1 Samuel 25:1 And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah.

There is no evidence in Scripture that any of his family was also buried in his house at Ramah.

[RajeshG]

Rather, based on what we see throughout Scripture about offerings by fire (both by godly people and ungodly people), what was offered was actually first slain before being offered up as a sacrifice by fire.

To clarify this statement, God only authorized the offering of animals as burnt offerings. He never authorized the offering of any humans in fire (apart from the exception of Isaac, which He prevented from being completed after Abraham had passed the test and proved that he feared God).
Even in godly offerings of animals as burnt offerings, the animal was first slain:

Exod. 29:15 Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.

16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.

17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.

18 And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the Lord: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

Wicked people, such as the Moabites, offered humans as burnt offerings:

2 Kings 3:27 Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

When they did so, the result was the cremation of the dead bodies of the humans.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You are still not understanding properly the significance of of Heb. 11:22. Regardless of whether God regarded Joseph’s embalming to be acceptable or not, God still explicitly commended him for what he did that concerned the preservation of his bones and led to their ultimate burial in the Promised Land even though his body was embalmed.

I’m not sure what “significance” you think I’m not properly understanding? I don’t see any significance in the verse regarding embalming, so I’m really not sure why this verse affects your judgment about man arrogating God’s authority in the natural deterioration of the body. There IS significance in what Joseph’s actions say about his faith, which is what the verse is directly about. Joseph had faith that the Israelites would one day leave Egypt to return to the promised land, and thus he would be able to have a “family burial.” So if burial itself is part of the significance, then this verse shows that it is “family burial” which is significant. After all, he already did have a burial in Egypt, but that wasn’t good enough for him. It was very, very important for him to be buried with his family.

Regarding “family burial,” I have already provided two explicit examples of people who were not buried with their families. Below are two more.

1. Rachel

Genesis 35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Genesis 48:7 And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan in the way, when yet there was but a little way to come unto Ephrath: and I buried her there in the way of Ephrath; the same is Bethlehem.

The text does not say that she was buried with any family in any family burial location.

We know from later Scripture that Jacob was not buried where she was when he died:

Gen. 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.

2. Samuel

1 Samuel 25:1 And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah.

There is no evidence in Scripture that any of his family was also buried in his house at Ramah.

Exceptions to family burial do not diminish the significance that God places upon family burial in numerous other verses. They simply show that, while family burial is the most acceptable to God, other processes at the end of life are also acceptable. God doesn’t insist on one singular end of life practice as being the only practice that can be done. If God were to make a command against burying someone at sea, then we would know that that particular end of life practice was wrong, but God hasn’t specifically done that for burial at sea or for cremation.

A command against offering someone as a burnt offering wouldn’t apply to cremation, since most people today who cremate their loved ones are not offering those people in worship to false gods. If the cremation situation were to be an offering to a false god, then that of course would be evil, but cremating someone to save funeral expense does not count as worship to a false god.

[Kevin Miller]

If the cremation situation were to be an offering to a false god, then that of course would be evil, but cremating someone to save funeral expense does not count as worship to a false god.

When Christians for the sake of money reject doing what God has made known with certainty pleases Him and instead do something for which they have no basis in Scripture to hold that it pleases God, they show that they do not value the Word of God supremely, as they should.

Eccl. 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Solomon was the wisest man ever other than Christ. In this verse, he profoundly emphasizes the importance of having a burial as the fitting ending of one’s life.
Comparing this passage with all the other passages in Scripture on the subject of burial shows conclusively that Solomon is not teaching that not having a funeral (whether one is buried, cremated, or whatever) is what would be a profoundly unfitting ending to one’s life.

He is plainly teaching that if one is not buried at the end of his life, “an untimely birth is better than he.” What Solomon says clearly teaches us that we should put the highest value on being buried at the end of our lives.

Concerning whether the Spirit leaves the body of the believer at death, I currently understand John 14 to provide evidence against such a view:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
So far in my study, I have not found any evidence that supports holding that the Spirit leaves the body of a believer when he dies. There may be such evidence, but I have not found it so far.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

Rajesh, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Matthew 27:50, and Luke 23:46 seem to indicate that yes, the spirit is separated from the body at death.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

[JD Miller]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[Bert Perry]

Rajesh, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Matthew 27:50, and Luke 23:46 seem to indicate that yes, the spirit is separated from the body at death.

Yes, the human spirit is separated from the body. That does not establish whether the Holy Spirit leaves the believer’s body or not.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

If the cremation situation were to be an offering to a false god, then that of course would be evil, but cremating someone to save funeral expense does not count as worship to a false god.

When Christians for the sake of money reject doing what God has made known with certainty pleases Him and instead do something for which they have no basis in Scripture to hold that it pleases God, they show that they do not value the Word of God supremely, as they should.

I can’t believe we are 7 pages into this thread and you don’t yet realize that God HASN’T made your position about cremation known with certainty.

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

If the cremation situation were to be an offering to a false god, then that of course would be evil, but cremating someone to save funeral expense does not count as worship to a false god.

When Christians for the sake of money reject doing what God has made known with certainty pleases Him and instead do something for which they have no basis in Scripture to hold that it pleases God, they show that they do not value the Word of God supremely, as they should.

I can’t believe we are 7 pages into this thread and you don’t yet realize that God HASN’T made your position about cremation known with certainty.

You have misunderstood my statement.
What I have in mind with the first part of my statement is burial—I believe that God absolutely, categorically, and conclusively has made known with certainty that burial is what pleases Him.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

If the cremation situation were to be an offering to a false god, then that of course would be evil, but cremating someone to save funeral expense does not count as worship to a false god.

When Christians for the sake of money reject doing what God has made known with certainty pleases Him and instead do something for which they have no basis in Scripture to hold that it pleases God, they show that they do not value the Word of God supremely, as they should.

I can’t believe we are 7 pages into this thread and you don’t yet realize that God HASN’T made your position about cremation known with certainty.

You have misunderstood my statement.

What I have in mind with the first part of my statement is burial—I believe that God absolutely, categorically, and conclusively has made known with certainty that burial is what pleases Him.

I don’t think I’ve misunderstood. When you make a statement about your position on burial regarding what God “has made known with certainty pleases him,” aren’t you saying that burial is the ONLY body disposal method that pleases God, and thus cremation would be off limits? Isn’t that what you think God has made known with certainty?

Or are you acknowledging with your comment that God has not made your position about cremation known with certainty?

[RajeshG]
JD Miller wrote:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is it about these verses that you think should be taken into account? Do you think that because the Bible uses the word “sleep,” we should understand that to mean that the body doesn’t actually die completely but stays animated by the Spirit in some way even when the body is put in the grave?

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

If the cremation situation were to be an offering to a false god, then that of course would be evil, but cremating someone to save funeral expense does not count as worship to a false god.

When Christians for the sake of money reject doing what God has made known with certainty pleases Him and instead do something for which they have no basis in Scripture to hold that it pleases God, they show that they do not value the Word of God supremely, as they should.

I can’t believe we are 7 pages into this thread and you don’t yet realize that God HASN’T made your position about cremation known with certainty.

You have misunderstood my statement.

What I have in mind with the first part of my statement is burial—I believe that God absolutely, categorically, and conclusively has made known with certainty that burial is what pleases Him.

I don’t think I’ve misunderstood. When you make a statement about your position on burial regarding what God “has made known with certainty pleases him,” aren’t you saying that burial is the ONLY body disposal method that pleases God, and thus cremation would be off limits? Isn’t that what you think God has made known with certainty?
Or are you acknowledging with your comment that God has not made your position about cremation known with certainty?

Yes, I think that burial is the only thing that pleases God. Obviously, cremation is off limits and not acceptable to God. I have been saying that from the beginning of the thread.
There isn’t anything in Scripture that supports holding that cremation pleases God.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You have misunderstood my statement.

What I have in mind with the first part of my statement is burial—I believe that God absolutely, categorically, and conclusively has made known with certainty that burial is what pleases Him.

I don’t think I’ve misunderstood. When you make a statement about your position on burial regarding what God “has made known with certainty pleases him,” aren’t you saying that burial is the ONLY body disposal method that pleases God, and thus cremation would be off limits? Isn’t that what you think God has made known with certainty?

Or are you acknowledging with your comment that God has not made your position about cremation known with certainty?

Yes, I think that burial is the only thing that pleases God. Obviously, cremation is off limits and not acceptable to God. I have been saying that from the beginning of the thread.

There isn’t anything in Scripture that supports holding that cremation pleases God.

So why is it that you told me I misunderstood your statement? After all, we are 7 pages into this thread, and you still haven’t realized that God HASN’T made your position known with certainty. There are multiple people on this thread who “value the Word of God supremely” and yet they have disagreed with your assessment of cremation. (The poll at the beginning of the thread shows that 12 people say cremation is legitimate and only one person says it isn’t.)

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You have misunderstood my statement.

What I have in mind with the first part of my statement is burial—I believe that God absolutely, categorically, and conclusively has made known with certainty that burial is what pleases Him.

I don’t think I’ve misunderstood. When you make a statement about your position on burial regarding what God “has made known with certainty pleases him,” aren’t you saying that burial is the ONLY body disposal method that pleases God, and thus cremation would be off limits? Isn’t that what you think God has made known with certainty?

Or are you acknowledging with your comment that God has not made your position about cremation known with certainty?

Yes, I think that burial is the only thing that pleases God. Obviously, cremation is off limits and not acceptable to God. I have been saying that from the beginning of the thread.

There isn’t anything in Scripture that supports holding that cremation pleases God.

So why is it that you told me I misunderstood your statement? After all, we are 7 pages into this thread, and you still haven’t realized that God HASN’T made your position known with certainty. There are multiple people on this thread who “value the Word of God supremely” and yet they have disagreed with your assessment of cremation. (The poll at the beginning of the thread shows that 12 people say cremation is legitimate and only one person says it isn’t.)

Because I did not state that it was burial that I had in mind in that first part of my statement. Based on your initial comment, I did not think that you really understood that what I was saying in the first part of my statement was about burial.
In any case, I disagree with what you assert. He absolutely has made it certain.
You know that burial is pleasing to God and that there is nothing in Scripture that shows that cremation pleases God yet you continue to assert that somehow it possibly is because it will save some people money if they choose it.

That was the whole point of my statement. Rejecting what you know pleases God and choosing what you have no basis in Scripture to hold as pleasing to God means that you are not basing your views on what God has said in His Word …

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

JD Miller wrote:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is it about these verses that you think should be taken into account? Do you think that because the Bible uses the word “sleep,” we should understand that to mean that the body doesn’t actually die completely but stays animated by the Spirit in some way even when the body is put in the grave?

No, of course, the body dies “completely.”

One key point of these verses is that God speaks of believers who have died as sleeping in Jesus. We know with certainty that their spirits/souls are not asleep. It is their dead bodies that sleep in Jesus.

What these verses show is that the dead body of a believer is still in union with Christ and in Christ even though his human spirit has departed to be with the Lord.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

JD Miller wrote:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is it about these verses that you think should be taken into account? Do you think that because the Bible uses the word “sleep,” we should understand that to mean that the body doesn’t actually die completely but stays animated by the Spirit in some way even when the body is put in the grave?

No, of course, the body dies “completely.”

One key point of these verses is that God speaks of believers who have died as sleeping in Jesus. We know with certainty that their spirits/souls are not asleep. It is their dead bodies that sleep in Jesus.

What these verses show is that the dead body of a believer is still in union with Christ and in Christ even though his human spirit has departed to be with the Lord.

How can the Holy Spirit, Who gives life, be in union with something that is “completely” dead without giving it life? We have no evidence in Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be in union with something and not give it life.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is it about these verses that you think should be taken into account? Do you think that because the Bible uses the word “sleep,” we should understand that to mean that the body doesn’t actually die completely but stays animated by the Spirit in some way even when the body is put in the grave?

No, of course, the body dies “completely.”

One key point of these verses is that God speaks of believers who have died as sleeping in Jesus. We know with certainty that their spirits/souls are not asleep. It is their dead bodies that sleep in Jesus.

What these verses show is that the dead body of a believer is still in union with Christ and in Christ even though his human spirit has departed to be with the Lord.

I need to give credit to my pastor, Dr. Mark Minnick, for his directing our attention to and his emphasizing some of these truths in a recent funeral message at my church. His excellent remarks in this regard have helped solidify further my position concerning the profound importance of burial.

[Kevin Miller]
RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

JD Miller wrote:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is it about these verses that you think should be taken into account? Do you think that because the Bible uses the word “sleep,” we should understand that to mean that the body doesn’t actually die completely but stays animated by the Spirit in some way even when the body is put in the grave?

No, of course, the body dies “completely.”

One key point of these verses is that God speaks of believers who have died as sleeping in Jesus. We know with certainty that their spirits/souls are not asleep. It is their dead bodies that sleep in Jesus.

What these verses show is that the dead body of a believer is still in union with Christ and in Christ even though his human spirit has departed to be with the Lord.

How can the Holy Spirit, Who gives life, be in union with something that is “completely” dead without giving it life? We have no evidence in Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be in union with something and not give it life.

To my knowledge, Scripture never speaks about the notion of the Holy Spirit being “in union with” anything.

[RajeshG]
Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

JD Miller wrote:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us forever, but WE leave our bodies when our bodies die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies, the Holy Spirit stays with us.

This understanding does not account for all the data that pertains.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is it about these verses that you think should be taken into account? Do you think that because the Bible uses the word “sleep,” we should understand that to mean that the body doesn’t actually die completely but stays animated by the Spirit in some way even when the body is put in the grave?

No, of course, the body dies “completely.”

One key point of these verses is that God speaks of believers who have died as sleeping in Jesus. We know with certainty that their spirits/souls are not asleep. It is their dead bodies that sleep in Jesus.

What these verses show is that the dead body of a believer is still in union with Christ and in Christ even though his human spirit has departed to be with the Lord.

How can the Holy Spirit, Who gives life, be in union with something that is “completely” dead without giving it life? We have no evidence in Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be in union with something and not give it life.

To my knowledge, Scripture never speaks about the notion of the Holy Spirit being “in union with” anything.

You were the one who previously posted John 14:15-17.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Since the Holy Spirit is “in you,” wouldn’t that be a “union”?

You then posted other verses and said “What these verses show is that the dead body of a believer is still in union with Christ and in Christ even though his human spirit has departed to be with the Lord.”

If being “in Christ” signifies a union with Christ, then wouldn’t the Holy Spirit being “in you” signify a union with the Holy Spirit?

[RajeshG]

That was the whole point of my statement. Rejecting what you know pleases God and choosing what you have no basis in Scripture to hold as pleasing to God means that you are not basing your views on what God has said in His Word …

We’ve covered this several times with a number of different examples. Just because God is pleased with one thing in a category, that doesn’t mean everything else in that same category is displeasing to God. God can be pleased with more than one thing in a category, so choosing one pleasing thing doesn’t mean you have “rejected” what is pleasing to God. You seem to be suggesting that only those things recorded in Scripture (your underlining) are pleasing to God. That leaves out airline travel, since airline travel is something that we have no basis in Scripture to hold as pleasing to God. It leaves out harvesting crops using tractors, since we have no basis in Scripture to hold that tractors are pleasing to God.

We do know that the cremation of Saul and his sons was not condemned in Scripture, so we have no basis in Scripture to hold that cremation is displeasing to God. If it was displeasing, God would have certainly judged it in some way and yet God didn’t.