"Is Cremation Christian"?
The article, “Is Cremation Christian?” is an excellent article that treats why the pagan practice of cremation is not Christian.
Poll Results
“Is Cremation Christian”?
Cremation is not legitimate for Christians. Votes: 1
Cremation is legitimate for Christians. Votes: 12
- 192 views
[AndyE]I’m glad you say it’s okay if i want to say we have to be careful in how we apply Mosaic Law. That “carefulness” is exactly what gives me the hesitation.What other scriptures should we not use to determine our faith and practice? I guess for sure 1 Corinthians 9:9–10, where Paul does exactly what you suggest we should not do. Probably also 2 Tim 3:16-17, since Paul must surely be mistaken that all scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness. If you want to say we have to be careful in how we apply Mosaic Law to our lives today, OK, but I would hesitate to dismiss whole sections of scripture as not applicable to us today.
[Kevin Miller]I’m glad you say it’s okay if i want to say we have to be careful in how we apply Mosaic Law. That “carefulness” is exactly what gives me the hesitation.
Mosaic Law? The account of God’s burying Moses in Deut. 34:6 is not Mosaic Law!
God was and is the Lawgiver. He was free to do whatever He wanted to do concerning the final disposition of Moses’ dead body.
He chose to bury Moses even though there were no other human beings present on that occasion. No humans would ever even have known what happened with Moses’ body after he died had God not chosen to reveal what He chose to do.
You are making a very serious error by thinking that what God did in burying Moses somehow has something to do with Mosaic Law.
I posted the following elsewhere this evening:
The Vital Importance of a Divine Promise of Burial - Genesis 15:15
God promised Abram that he would be buried at the end of his life:Genesis 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
When God made this promise, He was not following some OT Hebrew preference because Abraham was the first Hebrew so there was no long-standing or well-established Hebrew preference that had already been in place that could be or needed to be followed by God.
Because this verse is the first mention of burial in Scripture, we learn that within the limits of what is revealed in Scripture, we are to hold that God is the One who communicated to the Hebrews the importance of burying their own. He, therefore, was not following some OT Hebrew preference when He did so—He was making a divine promise that communicated the vital importance that He placed on burial!
Moreover, based on this understanding of this key promise, we learn that the numerous repeated mentions of the burials of God’s people in the OT are not instances of OT Hebrew preference of burial. Rather, they show the vital importance that God placed on burial when He promised Abram that he would be buried in a good old age.
[RajeshG]Nobody said the account of God burying Moses was part of the Mosaic law.Mosaic Law? The account of God’s burying Moses in Deut. 34:6 is not Mosaic Law!
God was and is the Lawgiver. He was free to do whatever He wanted to do concerning the final disposition of Moses’ dead body.
He chose to bury Moses even though there were no other human beings present on that occasion. No humans would ever even have known what happened with Moses’ body after he died had God not chosen to reveal what He chose to do.
You are making a very serious error by thinking that what God did in burying Moses somehow has something to do with Mosaic Law.
You had used a verse earlier in the conversation from Deuteronomy 21. I then asked you about a verse from Deut 22. Those chapters have Mosaic law in them. That conversation is where the comments about the Mosaic law come from. Your response was “I am not arguing from that one verse alone.” I took that as an acknowledgment that people can disagree about the applicability of Deuteronomy, but disagreeing with that one verse would not derail your entire point.
[Kevin Miller] I’m glad you say it’s okay if i want to say we have to be careful in how we apply Mosaic Law. That “carefulness” is exactly what gives me the hesitation.It’s one thing to be careful and it’s another thing to dismiss the use of OT scripture because it can be prone to misuse. All the Bible can be misused, but that doesn’t mean we should be hesitant to use it.
[RajeshG] Mosaic Law? The account of God’s burying Moses in Deut. 34:6 is not Mosaic Law!Sorry, I’m the one that led Kevin down this path. I used Mosaic Law in a general, non-specific sense to refer to the entirety of the Pentateuch, so he is just using my terminology.
[AndyE]Not a problem. I understand.Sorry, I’m the one that led Kevin down this path. I used Mosaic Law in a general, non-specific sense to refer to the entirety of the Pentateuch, so he is just using my terminology.
[AndyE]All three of the passages that I have dealt with have to do explicitly with things that God Himself did. The most important thing to do with those passages is to probe thoroughly what they teach us about God’s mind on the subject.It’s one thing to be careful and it’s another thing to dismiss the use of OT scripture because it can be prone to misuse. All the Bible can be misused, but that doesn’t mean we should be hesitant to use it.
So far, I have presented four lines of evidence that establish that burial was not an OT Hebrew preference:
1. God’s people who were not Jews also believed in the importance of burial.
2. God Himself established the importance of burial for the Hebrews when He promised that Abram, the first Hebrew, would be buried in a good old age.
3. God instructed His people that burial was mandatory for those whom they had hanged on a tree.
4. God taught His people the importance of burial by revealing to them that He Himself buried Moses.
Points 2-4 explicitly show that God was the One who stressed to the Hebrews that burial was His will for them and Point 1 implies that He taught others who were also His people but were not Jews that burial was His will for them.
These truths from Scripture invalidate the claim that burial by God’s people in the OT was a Hebrew preference.
The NT provides information about a battle that took place concerning Moses’ dead body that the OT makes no mention of:
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Strikingly, this battle involved the two highest angelic beings that God created. We are not told in any detail what the nature of the dispute was, but we can be sure that whatever the devil wanted to do with Moses’ body was unrighteous.
God’s choosing to bury Moses takes on added significance in light of what this NT passage reveals. Had God dematerialized Moses’ dead body or turned it into powder instantaneously and directed the wind to blow that powder in all different directions, the devil would have been powerless to do whatever he wanted to do with Moses’ body.
In spite of that consideration, however, God yet chose to bury Moses’ body and had His archangel contend with the devil about it. God’s doing so thus stresses the importance of His burying the dead body of Moses!
“If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with life’s good things, and he also has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.” Ecclesiastes 6:3
[Dave White]Yes, that is another passage that adds to the force of biblical teaching about burial as the will of God for His own.“If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with life’s good things, and he also has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.” Ecclesiastes 6:3
I intend to treat it at a later point in this thread.
When Nadab and Abihu sinned by offering strange fire before God, He devoured them with fire so that they died:
Lev. 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.
3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the Lord spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.
A careful reading of the passage reveals an important truth about God’s use of fire to judge them:
Lev. 10:4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.
5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.
Because their cousins carried them out in their coats, we know that the fire that God used to kill them neither consumed their clothing nor burned them to powder.
To teach people just how sinful their wickedness was, God could have burned them to powder and thereby seemingly have given everyone a much stronger warning about sinning in that manner.
Given that God has ordained that man will return to dust (Gen. 3:19), God would also have spared His people from the added trouble and expense of burying them.
God, however, did not burn these sinning people to powder. His not doing so should serve as a profound warning to His people not to intentionally use fire singly or in combination with any other means to intentionally turn the bodies of His own people to powder even though it is true that their bodies will ultimately return to dust nonetheless!
In 1000 BC burial meant finding a cave or digging a hole and dropping the person in it, then covering it up. Yes, Abram bought the cave for Sarah but he was a sojourner.
In 2022 USA, burial means buying a way overpriced plot dirt in a state and local government approved cemetery. Then paying an embalmer to put toxic chemicals in the body to “preserve” it and prevent ecological contamination. All of this costs serious $, whether you pre-plan or not.
Should “obeying God” cost $20,000?
Yes, it’s God doing this, but we need to keep in mind that Deuteronomy 34:6 is not law, but rather narrative, and trying to derive doctrine from narrative is extremely dangerous business. As a rule, we can infer that something is acceptable (or not) from narrative, but we cannot infer that something is mandatory. That’s really the same thing from the other examples Rajesh gives; yes, it was the Jews’ cultural preferance, and that of some Gentiles (as anyone familiar with near eastern history knows well), but it does not prove that burial ought to be mandatory for Christians.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
The assertion that the passages that I have treated are Jewish preference is false. None of the data that I have treated was Jewish cultural preference.
1. Job and Eliphaz were not Jews.
2. God did not promise that Abram would be buried because it was Jewish preference. There were no Jews before Abram, and God was free to do whatever He wanted to do regarding the final disposition of Abram’s body.
3. God did not command that those who were hanged had to be buried because it was Jewish preference. It was a divine command given solely by divine prerogative.
4. God did not bury Moses because it was Jewish preference. There were no Jews present and God was not under any obligation to bury him or to even reveal anything about his burial.
5. God did not choose not to burn Nadab and Abihu to powder because He had to follow Jewish preference. God was free to do whatever He chose to do in judging them.
It is utter nonsense to claim that God followed or had to follow Jewish preference in any of His actions in these passages.
To be sure, God did not need to do some of these things, but it’s worth noting that had God said to do something else with the bodies—Abraham, executed criminals, Moses—that would have been going against known cultural preferences in the region, and would have had a very clear meaning. So in those cases, He’s simply going along with what these people would have chosen to begin with. In other words, following cultural preferences in areas where they didn’t have sufficient wood to light a funeral pyre.
Again, narrative passages tell us what happened, but not always the why. That’s why it’s extremely dangerous to try to derive doctrine from narrative passages.
Come on, Rajesh, you should have learned this at BJU. You should not be making mistakes like this with your level of training.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Yeah, right. The nonsense notion that God was bound to heed the cultural preferences of human beings in directing His unique people whom He took out to be a light to the world is utterly ridiculous.
God is absolutely sovereign and was completely free to direct His people according to His mind and did just that. Regardless of what anybody may or may not have preferred, God was not bound by their preferences, and He did not determine His actions so that He merely went along with their cultural preferences.
God did what He did because burying people after death has always been God’s mind about what should be done unless He sovereignly chooses to do otherwise. What God did reveals His mind—not His subjecting Himself to human preferences.
Furthermore, the claim that God just went along with human preferences begs the question that God had no mind of His own about what should be done and that it did not and does not matter to Him what is done with a dead body. No one gets to beg that question. Those who want to espouse that view have to prove it from the Bible itself.
Rajesh: how would you “score” the doctrine of burial on the “Levels of Doctrine” concentric circle scale?
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-do-you-evalu…
See the article for the concentric circles.The ability to discern the relative importance of theological beliefs is vital for effective Christian life and ministry. Both the purity and unity of the church are at stake in this matter. The relative importance of theological issues can fall within four categories:
- absolutes define the core beliefs of the Christian faith;
- convictions, while not core beliefs, may have significant impact on the health and effectiveness of the church;
- opinions are less-clear issues that generally are not worth dividing over; and
- questions are currently unsettled issues.
These categories can be best visualized as concentric circles, similar to those on a dart board, with the absolutes as the “bull’s-eye”:
[Dave White]No thanks, Dave. I’m not interested in that kind of discussion. People will have to decide those things for themselves. My intent is to refute the false notion that cremation is acceptable to God.Rajesh: how would you “score” the doctrine of burial on the “Levels of Doctrine” concentric circle scale?
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-do-you-evalua…
The ability to discern the relative importance of theological beliefs is vital for effective Christian life and ministry. Both the purity and unity of the church are at stake in this matter. The relative importance of theological issues can fall within four categories:
- absolutes define the core beliefs of the Christian faith;
- convictions, while not core beliefs, may have significant impact on the health and effectiveness of the church;
- opinions are less-clear issues that generally are not worth dividing over; and
- questions are currently unsettled issues.
These categories can be best visualized as concentric circles, similar to those on a dart board, with the absolutes as the “bull’s-eye”:
See the article for the concentric circles.
My intent is to refute the false notion that cremation is acceptable to God.
I am persuaded enough that my own plans (and I hope it is a long time) is burial. My wife’s as well.
Should the burial doctine be in a church’s statement of faith and / or church covenant?
Thanks
Back to the theological triage issue:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-do-you-evalu…
Where an issue falls within these categories should be determined by weighing the cumulative force of at least seven considerations:
- biblical clarity;
- relevance to the character of God;
- relevance to the essence of the gospel;
- biblical frequency and significance (how often in Scripture it is taught, and what weight Scripture places upon it);
- effect on other doctrines;
- consensus among Christians (past and present); and
- effect on personal and church life.
Here’s my scoring on “the doctrine of burial”:
- biblical clarity; Paul did not condemn cremation and he must have encountered it! Low
- relevance to the character of God; Low
- relevance to the essence of the gospel; Low
- biblical frequency and significance (how often in Scripture it is taught, and what weight Scripture places upon it); Burial is a pattern in the OT but most of the references are descriptive not prescriptive. Conclusion = Low
- effect on other doctrines; Low
- consensus among Christians (past and present); There is no consensus! Low
- effect on personal and church life. Low - not in doctrinal statements / church covenants. No one disciplined for it!
Conclusion: opinions are less-clear issues that generally are not worth dividing over. 3rd order doctrine
[Dave White]At a minimum, I would dispute strongly your scoring on 1, 2, 4, and 6. I am developing my views on #5 and need to study much more the ramifications of Christ’s burial being an essential part of the gospel message.Back to the theological triage issue:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-do-you-evalua…
Where an issue falls within these categories should be determined by weighing the cumulative force of at least seven considerations:
- biblical clarity;
- relevance to the character of God;
- relevance to the essence of the gospel;
- biblical frequency and significance (how often in Scripture it is taught, and what weight Scripture places upon it);
- effect on other doctrines;
- consensus among Christians (past and present); and
- effect on personal and church life.
Here’s my scoring on “the doctrine of burial”:
- biblical clarity; Paul did not condemn cremation and he must have encountered it! Low
- relevance to the character of God; Low
- relevance to the essence of the gospel; Low
- biblical frequency and significance (how often in Scripture it is taught, and what weight Scripture places upon it); Burial is a pattern in the OT but most of the references are descriptive not prescriptive. Conclusion = Low
- effect on other doctrines; Low
- consensus among Christians (past and present); There is no consensus! Low
- effect on personal and church life. Low - not in doctrinal statements / church covenants. No one disciplined for it!
Conclusion: opinions are less-clear issues that generally are not worth dividing over. 3rd order doctrine
I have not studied enough to comment at this time on #5 and have not thought through all the considerations of #7. Having said that, I have no intention of engaging in further discussion along these lines.
Conclusion: I strongly disagree with your overall assessment. We will have to leave it there.
My intent and desire is to treat the Bible itself and discuss what it reveals in detail.
[RajeshG] Conclusion: I strongly disagree with your overall assessment. We will have to leave it there.
OK you can “leave it there” but I’d invite others to weigh in on my scoring.
[Dave White]OK you can “leave it there” but I’d invite others to weigh in on my scoring.
I see. So in effect, this will hijack this thread and move it away from an actual discussion of Bible passages themselves.
I will leave the choice up to you. I am not interested in discussing this subject in this manner.
Either I will bow out of this thread and start a new thread in which I will copy all of my comments from this thread and continue that thread as a discussion of Bible passages and you can have this thread or you start a new thread and have the discussion that you want to have on that new thread.
Let me know what you decide.
[RajeshG] So in effect, this will hijack this thread
Reality check! You don’t own this thread!
[Dave White]Yes, I do not “own” this thread. That is why I am prepared to give it over to you and start a new one in which the discussion will be the type of discussion that I would like to have.Reality check! You don’t own this thread!
[RajeshG]Yes, I do not “own” this thread. That is why I am prepared to give it over to you and start a new one in which the discussion will be the type of discussion that I would like to have.
I’ll be there!
I agree with Dave’s comment here. The passages used by Rajesh to justify his position are narrative, description and not prescription, and hence it’s (again) extremely dangerous business to try and draw doctrine from these narratives.
It is especially dangerous business when one considers that in the near east, cremation was often very difficult simply because it takes a lot of fuel to burn a body, wood that they simply didn’t have to spare. The Bible refers to burning the cuttings from grape vines and cooking over manure for this very reason. Hence the cultural preference for burial was more or less “well, we can bury Dad and have fuel to bake our bread and warm our homes, or we can cremate Dad and go hungry and cold this year.”
Really, Rajesh’s exegetical method reminds me of the old joke where a man is looking for guidance from God, and decides he’ll get it by opening the Bible and reading whatever he saw. So he opens first to Matthew 27:5, and then, rather sad about that lack of guidance, opens next to the second half of Luke 10:37.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Informative that Elmwood Baptist …
- The source of the original article: https://www.elmwoodbaptist.org/is-cremation-christian
- Doesn’t mention “burial” or “cremation” in their doctrinal statement: https://www.elmwoodbaptist.org/our-beliefs
Informs us: that the church regards cremation / burial as a 3rd order issue and NOT related to the gospel
I literally have read hundreds of doctrinal statements!
- Christian colleges & seminaries
- Churches
- Ordination statements
- Applications for pastoral positions / positions for other Christian organizations
I have NEVER ONCE seen cremation / burial even as a 3rd order issue.
Telling isn’t it!
Mentions of cremation = NADA!
It should be conceded that just since the ancients didn’t see it as a big issue, that doesn’t mean that we might not later find that it is indeed important. Really, being “novel” is one of the chief fallacious arguments against dispensationalism—new therefore wrong.
(side note; a big part of what we’ve got going on here is that cremation was not typical in Europe and the U.S until relatively recently, and that increases the temptation to simply assume that what’s been done before is the only right way)
But that conceded, we ought to remember that at the same time, if the rest of history does not mention this as a significant matter, then we ought to at least have the decency to make sure we’ve got a very good argument for our position.
It doesn’t need to be a simple “Paul wrote this in 1 Corinthians x:yz”, but it does need to be a better argument than observing the near eastern patterns and inferring that because the Hebrews and others buried people, that therefore it must be mandatory for God’s people for all time.
A good example is how Francis Schaeffer worked to make evangelicals aware of the horrors of abortion, and another is the Trinity. It is something that takes a bit more doing than a simple prooftext, and since we’re so addicted to prooftexting, we often find that we’re out of practice when we need to establish truth in other ways.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
I’m convinced - burial is my choice
- I’ve bought the plots
- Bought the monument and marker (image here https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/227140373/james-richard-peet )
- And made my wishes known AND
- Prepared financially for it (Mark is right - it’s not the cheapest option
But’s it’s an opinion or preference on the tree ring chart … NOT a 1st or 2nd order doctrine!
https://albertmohler.com/2004/05/20/a-call-for-theological-triage-and-c…
The misjudgment of true fundamentalism is the belief that all disagreements concern first-order doctrines. Thus, third-order issues are raised to a first-order importance, and Christians are wrongly and harmfully divided.
[Dave White]I am sure you will because suppressing full expression of opposing viewpoints and full discussion of the Bible data itself are very high priorities for various people on SI.I’ll be there!
[RajeshG] I am sure you will because suppressing full expression of opposing viewpoints and full discussion of the Bible data itself are very high priorities for various people on SI.
Ha ha!
Last time I heard, you are not a moderator or admin. Dave is doing nothing to “suppress full expression”
[Craig Toliver]Ha ha! I never claimed to be a moderator or admin. My not being in either of those positions does not mean that I cannot express my viewpoint on what I believe is taking place.Ha ha!
Last time I heard, you are not a moderator or admin. Dave is doing nothing to “suppress full expression”
Hijacking threads is very effective in preventing those with opposing viewpoints from conducting discussions about subjects from the Bible the way that they want to discuss them.
That is certainly true of a lot of hyper-fundamentalism but it’s not true of the movement at its inception and in its “true” forms. The beauty of fundamentalism to me is that it frees one to have at least some basis of fellowship with any person who believes the gospel.
Edit: not wanting to hijack so if others care to discuss this further I can start a thread.
[RajeshG] Hijacking threads is very effective in preventing those with opposing viewpoints from conducting discussions about subjects from the Bible the way that they want to discuss them.
Here it is: “Try to stay on topic. This is a famously subjective call. Do your best. If you think your comment might be seen as unrelated, include something to help us see the connection.”
The thread is “Is Cremation Christian”
My point of view is that it’s the best choice, my choice, but a 3rd order doctrine. I’m completely on topic. You don’t like it but I’m in the room and I will not be shut down or bullied by you
Discussion