Does God love all kinds of music because He invented it all?
—Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Life, Zondervan, 2002, p. 65
In my opinion, the truthfulness of these claims that Warren makes are some of the most fundamental points of dispute in the worship music wars.
Poll Results
Does God love all kinds of music because He invented it all?
Yes, God loves all kinds of music because He invented it all. Votes: 1
No, God does not love all kinds of music even though He invented it all. Votes: 0
No, God does not love all kinds of music, and He did not invent it all. Votes: 4
Other. Please specify in a comment below. Votes: 1
- 229 views
[Bert Perry]Concerning the first quote, the author provides plenty of evidence to back up his assessment about rock music. You do not just get to dismiss the evidence provided because you disagree with it. You have to refute it factually.Rajesh, here’s a money quote.
“Rock music is a door to the occult world via percussion”
Later in the column, about drums it is said
“it wakes the dead, you know?”
In another part, it talks about the spirit power of the drum and a bunch more. So yes, the article clearly argues that drums are evil. It’s not subtle at all, and you now find yourself, Rajesh, in the interesting position of having endorsed an article you clearly did not understand.
Personally, my thought is that Mickey Hart’s statements on drums are (a) intended primarily to get press and sell records and (b) probably have a bit more to do with the drugs Hart was taking than any actual power of drums. The guy’s drug use (among other things) got him expelled from the group for a time in 1971, after all.
The second quote was about a specific drum used in an evil way. It was not a statement about all drums regardless of how they are used.
The entire article concerns various drums used to play evil music by evil people in occult contexts. It does not establish anything about any of those drums used to play other kinds of music in other contexts.
The article never says that all drums are evil.
…namely that you you seem congenitally unable to see the obvious sense of a passage, Biblical or otherwise. If Mickey Hart had meant to say just a skull drum, he would have referred to the mystical and spiritual powers of just that particular drum. He does not; it is all drums that are such a fascination with him. In the same way, Mr. Brennan does not limit his attacks on percussion to one type, but rather blames all percussion.
That would include, AHEM, the percussive instruments mentioned in the last two Psalms, so Mr. Brennan (and you) have a very serious problem with Scripture, which commands God’s people to praise Him with percussive instruments!
And my necessary proof of the permissibility of percussive instruments. Ahem, if it’s good enough for Tehillim, the Psalms, it’s good enough for me. If God commanded His people to use danceable music from time to time in praising Him, that’s good enough for me.
And the notion that people get to recycle Jim Crow era slanders of African-American music to restrict the freedom of all brothers and sisters in Christ? That one can take a long walk off a short pier.
Yes, Rajesh, that is where the claim Brennan makes comes from. If you take that kind of logic to an African-American church, some of the older members will tell you that in no uncertain terms. It’s long past time for fundamentalists to abandon that line of illogic.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]There you are lying again. I have never said anything against all use of all percussion instruments. That is the same lie that you keep uttering over and over again. No matter how many times you utter it, it will not become true.…namely that you you seem congenitally unable to see the obvious sense of a passage, Biblical or otherwise. If Mickey Hart had meant to say just a skull drum, he would have referred to the mystical and spiritual powers of just that particular drum. He does not; it is all drums that are such a fascination with him. In the same way, Mr. Brennan does not limit his attacks on percussion to one type, but rather blames all percussion.
That would include, AHEM, the percussive instruments mentioned in the last two Psalms, so Mr. Brennan (and you) have a very serious problem with Scripture, which commands God’s people to praise Him with percussive instruments!
And my necessary proof of the permissibility of percussive instruments. Ahem, if it’s good enough for Tehillim, the Psalms, it’s good enough for me. If God commanded His people to use danceable music from time to time in praising Him, that’s good enough for me.
And the notion that people get to recycle Jim Crow era slanders of African-American music to restrict the freedom of all brothers and sisters in Christ? That one can take a long walk off a short pier.
Yes, Rajesh, that is where the claim Brennan makes comes from. If you take that kind of logic to an African-American church, some of the older members will tell you that in no uncertain terms. It’s long past time for fundamentalists to abandon that line of illogic.
Similarly, your fallacious assertion that I have a problem with Scripture because of Ps. 149-150 is ludicrous. You and others want to beg the question by claiming those passages justify using in worship whatever kinds of music are played on those percussion instruments that you want to use. Neither those passages nor any other Scripture establishes that all uses of all percussion instruments are pleasing to God. You in effect beg the same essential point that Warren begs in the OP to this thread.
…but you did endorse the racist-inspired ravings of a guy who clearly was stating that he felt that the occult and demons entered through percussion.
Own it, repent of it, apologize for it, Rajesh. Again, you want to limit people’s freedom? The onus is on you to prove your case, and guilt by association and endorsing Jim Crow era arguments doesn’t cut it.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]So because Bert Perry makes his all-knowing pronouncement that it is false that demons entered through percussion used in occult activities in numerous places around the world, all other people in the world must accept what Bert Perry says? Not a chance.…but you did endorse the racist-inspired ravings of a guy who clearly was stating that he felt that the occult and demons entered through percussion.
Own it, repent of it, apologize for it, Rajesh. Again, you want to limit people’s freedom? The onus is on you to prove your case, and guilt by association and endorsing Jim Crow era arguments doesn’t cut it.
You have zero credibility or authority to deny extensive evidence provided by secular—yes, secular—sources such as the author of the essay cited in the first post that I linked to in my blog post and the writer of the book extensively excerpted in the second post that I linked to in my blog post.
You are the one who needs to repent of all your lies and false accusations about me.
Well, Rajesh, the fact is that what I’ve stated in this forum is true. So you’ve failed both tests for calling someone a liar—first, you must demonstrate clearly that what they said was false, and second, you must demonstrate that they said so knowing that it was false.
Looks like a nice personal attack on your part, though. Again, along with your recycling of Jim Crow era racist theories about music, you need to repent of this. Own it, repent of it, apologize for it.
And “vast amounts of evidence”? Please. Again, guilt by association and mutually contradictory rantings by people like drug addled drummers for the Grateful Dead do not at all balance the experience of millions of drummers who observe no such thing, many thousands of them Bible-believing Christians playing praise music for their churches along the lines of the last two Psalms.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]No, you have not demonstrated anything to be true. I have called you out in previous threads about your asserting falsely that I associated the music of the GCI with modern music and demanded that you provide proof. You did not do so because you could not do so because you just made it up.Well, Rajesh, the fact is that what I’ve stated in this forum is true. So you’ve failed both tests for calling someone a liar—first, you must demonstrate clearly that what they said was false, and second, you must demonstrate that they said so knowing that it was false.
Looks like a nice personal attack on your part, though. Again, along with your recycling of Jim Crow era racist theories about music, you need to repent of this. Own it, repent of it, apologize for it.
And “vast amounts of evidence”? Please. Again, guilt by association and mutually contradictory rantings by people like drug addled drummers for the Grateful Dead do not at all balance the experience of millions of drummers who observe no such thing, many thousands of them Bible-believing Christians playing praise music for their churches along the lines of the last two Psalms.
You repeated that same false claim in this thread. I called you out again. You still have not provided any proof that I have ever done so because you cannot do so. Knowing that I have called you out about that false claim before and yet still repeating it in this thread shows that you are perpetuating a false notion about me. That means you have zero credibility for what you say about me.
I have also called you out in this thread for your falsely claiming that I have ever supported the viewpoint that “all drums are out of line,” all drumming is evil, etc. Again, you cannot provide a single statement by me from any source that ever makes such a statement because I never have. You just made that up.
As for your claims attacking the material covered in Tom Brennan’s two posts that I linked to on my blog, you have falsely asserted that he singled out one group to attack. An objective examination of that material in those two posts proves that he has provided material about the evil practices of 6 different occult groups of people from 5 continents. [In fact, “Hear That Long Snake Moan” also provides evidence about a 7th different occult group.]
You have thereby been proven to have made false statements about that material. Trying to dismiss evidence that anybody can check and see that you have made false claims shows that you have an agenda and are not interested in accurately, fairly, and honestly assessing information.
You are going to answer to Christ at the Judgment Seat for all your unethical behavior.
By endorsing Mr. Brennan’s work, yes, you did implicitly endorse an article that stated, and I quote, “rock music is a door to the occult world via percussion.” Often, an “endorsement” of an article includes the notion that you endorse the concepts therein. That is what the word means, after all. So either I must argue that you’re lying about never supporting the notion that all drums are evil, or you are incapable of reading the clear sense of Mr. Brennan’s articles.
Either way, you might do well to review some basic principles of logic and exegesis before posting again on this topic. Either that, or repent and apologize to a bunch of people here.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]Saying that “rock music is a door to the occult world via percussion” is a statement about the playing of rock music on percussion—it is not a statement about playing any and all kinds of music on percussion instruments. Your claim that statement shows that someone holds the notion that “all drums are evil” is categorically false.By endorsing Mr. Brennan’s work, yes, you did implicitly endorse an article that stated, and I quote, “rock music is a door to the occult world via percussion.” Often, an “endorsement” of an article includes the notion that you endorse the concepts therein. That is what the word means, after all. So either I must argue that you’re lying about never supporting the notion that all drums are evil, or you are incapable of reading the clear sense of Mr. Brennan’s articles.
Either way, you might do well to review some basic principles of logic and exegesis before posting again on this topic. Either that, or repent and apologize to a bunch of people here.
Rajesh, I encourage you to read the rest of the article you endorsed. Yes, it does suggest that all drums are evil, even apart from the context of rock & roll music.
Sometimes people who endorse articles actually bother to read and understand them. Maybe you should give it a try. Until then, repent & apologize.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]I have read the entire article multiple times. I have nothing to repent of about linking to that post. You are putting a spin on the force of his two articles. In fact, here is how he summarized what he intended to do with his excerpts in the 2nd article:Rajesh, I encourage you to read the rest of the article you endorsed. Yes, it does suggest that all drums are evil, even apart from the context of rock & roll music.
Sometimes people who endorse articles actually bother to read and understand them. Maybe you should give it a try. Until then, repent & apologize.
With today’s lengthy post I will attempt to get you to do so. It consists mainly of a series of selected quotes. The purpose of these to establish in your mind the validity of my contention that rock music is a door to the occult via percussion. You may still disagree with me after reading this but you cannot do so from an uninformed perspective. You will only do so from a stubbornly obdurate one. [bold added to the original]
Clearly, he intended his post to be about the evils of rock music, just as he said. He never makes any statements about the playing of all music on all percussion instruments.
Moreover, he ends the post this way, which again proves what his intent was and what he believes:
So there it is – a summation of the book that is sitting on my desk that changed my life. What I had long suspected about rock music and its present connection to an ancient demonism had been proven in excruciating detail. And not by some wild eyed ignorant Baptist preacher, but by the rock drummer of our age who knows more about drumming than any other man on the planet. I will leave you with one last quote from Mickey Hart. I urge you to let it soak in for a while…
None of my friends talked about shamans, and yet that’s what we were all trying to become, without knowing it. [bold added to the original]
Undeniably, his post is about the evils of rock music; it is not about asserting that all drums are evil.
You are falsely asserting/implying that both he and I hold positions that we have not said that we hold.
You need to repent of your unethical behavior.
OK, guys. Strong argumentation is fine, but the calls for repentance, etc. need to go. Any more of that after this post, and the post will be summarily removed, even if the rest of it is interesting. And no, I won’t care if it’s from a post I agree with or not. The principle is the same in either case.
Further, any more of the “no you didn’t,” “yes I did,” etc. 5th grade-style fights will probably also be removed. I realize there is some strong disagreement on this topic (and from more than just you two), and there probably always will be — I certainly remember some knock-down, drag-outs from SI back in 2005 on music — but let’s at least try to keep it classy.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii]OK, guys. Strong argumentation is fine, but the calls for repentance, etc. need to go. Any more of that after this post, and the post will be summarily removed, even if the rest of it is interesting. And no, I won’t care if it’s from a post I agree with or not. The principle is the same in either case.
Further, any more of the “no you didn’t,” “yes I did,” etc. 5th grade-style fights will probably also be removed. I realize there is some strong disagreement on this topic (and from more than just you two), and there probably always will be — I certainly remember some knock-down, drag-outs from SI back in 2005 on music — but let’s at least try to keep it classy.
What recourse is there when a person keeps saying that you hold a view or have said something and you have never said that you hold that view and have never said what is claimed that you have said?
[RajeshG]I haven’t had a chance to look at this thread since I last posted, but since I see this morning that moderator action is in the works, I thought I’d better look. before i even look at your latest responses to what i last wrote, I wanted to mention that I also read the articles you had linked to in your blog. They did seem to me to be making an expansive type of argument regarding percussion. When the article tries to explain HOW rock music is a door to the occult, it seems to give the answer “because percussion.” It then explains how percussion has been used by the occult. If the foundational evil is percussion, then that does make one wonder why the same standard of rejecting percussion is not being applied for any other musical style that uses percussion.Saying that “rock music is a door to the occult world via percussion” is a statement about the playing of rock music on percussion—it is not a statement about playing any and all kinds of music on percussion instruments. Your claim that statement shows that someone holds the notion that “all drums are evil” is categorically false.
In my opinion, the article applies a more expansive application of evil to drumming than what Rajesh has typically presented as he’s been discussing music with me on this forum. The article is basically giving a “use” reasoning for why drumming is evil by saying it’s evil due to it being used by occult practitioners. I don’t see Rajesh typically making a “use” argument such as that. Earlier in the thread„ I mentioned various sins in a “works of darkness” type passage, and then said “Music may be used while people are practicing those sins, but I don’t believe that puts a permanent taint on that style of music, what ever it may be.” Rajesh answered back by saying, ” Your claim that the activities “taint” that instrumental music begs the question that the music itself was originally good and only became evil through its being “tainted” by being used in those activities. You have to prove such claims from Scripture—you do not just get to assert that instrumental music was originally good. Prove from Scripture that it was originally good.”
So I see Rajesh using an “originally evil” argument for why certain music would be unacceptable to God, and not a “use” argument. Though he does seem to switch back and forth at times. The article seems to be trying to claim that a “use” of percussion by occult practitioners makes the percussion “originally evil,” but that’s not really logical to me, since percussion would have been in use before occult practitioners would have used it. Do I know that for sure? No, but it seems logical, and someone who tries to claim otherwise would also not know for sure that percussion started with the occult.
So Rajesh, can you clear up for me whether you are using a “use” argument in regards to percussion within rock music as being evil, or are you using an “originally evil” argument in regards to percussion within rock music? (You may have partially answered this in your responses to me from a few days ago, but I haven’t looked that those yet since I’ve had to help my daughter repaint her bedroom before her new baby comes in a few days, and we are putting a second coat on today.)
I have already provided what the NT provides for the direction of godly believers in dealing with evil things of the occult—total rejection (Acts 19:19). If you want to argue that music of the occult is somehow different, you have the burden of proof.
[Kevin Miller] They did seem to me to be making an expansive type of argument regarding percussion. When the article tries to explain HOW rock music is a door to the occult, it seems to give the answer “because percussion.” It then explains how percussion has been used by the occult. If the foundational evil is percussion, then that does make one wonder why the same standard of rejecting percussion is not being applied for any other musical style that uses percussion.
FWIW, I don’t read the article this way at all. The answer given isn’t “because percussion” but rather the rhythms produced by the percussion. So, for example, “I had heard, of course, of the phenomenon of rhythmic entrainment that rock and jazz musicians call ‘the groove.’”
I think it’s pretty clear that Brennan is not implicating all drums or all percussion in his article.
Of course saying it is the rhythms doesn’t implicate ALL rhythms, either. :)
[RajeshG]Is this your answer to whether you are using a “use” argument for whether something is an “evil thing of the occult.” as opposed to an “originally evil” argument?I have already provided what the NT provides for the direction of godly believers in dealing with evil things of the occult—total rejection (Acts 19:19). If you want to argue that music of the occult is somehow different, you have the burden of proof.
[Kevin Miller]As I see it, you have not established biblically that making this distinction or answering this question is relevant to the passage that I have set forth that God has through inspiration given us to guide us (Acts 19:19).Is this your answer to whether you are using a “use” argument for whether something is an “evil thing of the occult.” as opposed to an “originally evil” argument?
Earlier in this thread, it has been claimed that both Tom Brennan and I espouse views about percussion along the lines of “all drums are out of line.” Neither of us hold such a view. The following quotes prove decisively that Tom Brennan does not hold such a view.
Prior to the two posts from Tom Brennan that I linked to in my blog post, he makes clear his position concerning percussion in his two previous posts. First, in “Music 4: Everything Changed,” he writes:
Western music had for centuries been composed of three elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm. In fact, music cannot exist without rhythm of some sort for without it there would be no organized structure. I grasped this first as a small boy growing up in a house with four older sisters who all played the piano. My oldest sister became somewhat advanced on the classical side and I can still picture her metronome ticking away at faster and faster speeds as she practiced hour upon hour in our dining room. Even the stately religious hymns of yesteryear have rhythm as evidenced by the various time signatures at the beginning. Not only has Western music had elements of rhythm in it for as long as we have record but it is also factual that rhythm is mentioned in the Word of God, and in a positive context to boot. Praise him with the timbrel and dance. (Psalm 150.4) The timbrel is a small hand drum essentially rather like the tambourine of our day.
I say that because I do not want to leave the impression in what comes next that I believe rhythm in music is wrong. I cannot and dare not for at least the reasons I have just cited.
In his next post (“Music 5: The Door of the Occult”), he writes:
There is a longstanding, deep, present, and growing connection between worship of what the Scripture defines as false gods, devils, demons, or evil spirits and a drum heavy rhythm soaked dance inducing type of music all around the world. Does this make the use of drums wrong? No, for their use is found in the Bible in a limited way. But it does make me leery of a style of music that is primarily composed of a heavy beat, has its roots in the worship of evil spirits, and has its musicians still studying and evidencing this.
These direct quotes from him in previous posts prove indisputably that he does not hold or teach that “all drums are out of line.”
I did not endorse posts that set forth such a patently false notion and never would.
Furthermore, to prevent further false claims being made about me, my linking to his two posts in my blog post and to two others of his posts in this comment does not mean that I agree with Tom Brennan on everything that he says in every post in his series on music or with all his positions about music.
On September 10, 2013, I posted on my blog the following article:
[I have provided the full text of the post here. I am only linking to it as proof for anyone who feels that they must check if I am telling the truth or not—I am not seeking additional clicks on my blog!]
Has God Changed His Mind about How He Wants All the Earth to Worship Him?
Did God ever make known how He wanted all the earth to worship Him? Has He changed His mind about that subject after the coming of Christ and His finished work of atonement?5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
The careful reader of the full text of this post will see that certain repeated statements made earlier on this thread about my views about the use of percussion are wrong.
I believe that it is wrong for Christians to provide examples of demonic instrumental music for people to listen to and discuss musicologically. In disobedience to God, Christians who want to hear examples of what such music sounds like can use Google to find recordings of various types of occult drumming music.
I will continue to ignore all such demands that I provide such examples of demonic instrumental music or other ungodly instrumental music.
In my hurry to post something before going to church this evening, I posted the text of an article that actually does not show my view about percussion. My apologies for my carelessness.
In an article that is also from 2013 that I should have posted a link to (“Learning from a Biblical Chronology of Early Music: Part II”; this post is long so I am only quoting here the directly relevant material) and does speak about the godly use of percussion, I wrote the following:
Comparing These Passages with Other Early References to Music
Some later passages both confirm this conclusion and go beyond it.
After God destroyed Pharaoh and his armies in the Red Sea, Miriam and all the women used timbrels to extol God in dance and song:
Exo 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel (Heb. תֹּף) in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels (Heb. תֹּף)and with dances. 21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
These Israelite women used the same instrument (“timbrel” [Heb. תֹּף] ) that the ungodly used back in the time of Job (Job 21:12). More importantly, these women used the timbrel in a sacred setting!
Other relatively early references show God’s people using in sacred settings all the instruments mentioned in earlier references to the music of the wicked:
1Sa 10:5 After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret (Heb. תֹּף), and a pipe, and a harp [Heb. כִּנּוֹר] , before them; and they shall prophesy:
Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel (Heb. תֹּף) and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs [Heb. עוּגָב].
Whereas First Samuel 10:5 attests that specially consecrated people of God used these instruments in his service, Psalm 150:4 attests to the propriety of all of God’s people doing so.
This analysis of music in the early history of God’s peoples conclusively shows that God’s people used the same instruments as the wicked did, including serving and worshiping Him with those instruments. What’s more, He commanded them to use those very instruments in their serving and worshiping Him (e.g., Ps. 150:4)!
In this post (as well as in others), I explicitly have talked about my awareness of both the godly use of percussion instruments and the divine commands to do so.
For some time now, I have been very busy with other obligations that have not allowed me to have much time to do careful research into certain claims made earlier in this thread about Ode to Joy and certain other pieces of music. Although I still have not had much time, I am in the process of checking and evaluating the claims made for factual accuracy, etc.
Concerning the matter of associations, Scott Aniol has written a helpful article: “On Associations.” Although I have not yet had time to carefully evaluate everything that he says in the article, it may provide some help for those who are interested in learning more about issues concerning associations.
When I have had enough time to research thoroughly, I will respond further to the earlier claims, D.V.
Earlier in this thread, the following claim was made:
The hymn “Ode To Joy” is originally from Beethoven, and the original lyrics are Schiller’s “An die Freude(link is external),” a pantheistic hymn to the pagan gods of Europe.
Having researched this claim, I have not found specific evidence so far to substantiate this claim.
As part of my research, I consulted with a native speaker of German who is a believer and asked her if any pagan gods of Europe are named in the lyrics of “An die Freude.” She confirmed to me that the lyrics do not have any mention by name of any “pagan gods of Europe.”
I have also consulted with a faculty member in the Fine Arts department of a leading Christian university about this claim. He teaches music history classes at the university.
Here is his assessment of the claim:
That would be too simplistic a statement. To be sure the poem is not Christian. The poem seems mostly to emphasize the universal brotherhood of humanity. There are references to Greek mythology but only in a symbolic sense in my opinion. Schiller had no faith in Greek gods. Beethoven himself was often compared to Orpheus, the Greek god of music, but again only in a symbolic sense. No one had faith in these gods.
OK, let’s apply your source’s logic to rock & roll. Many devotees of that genre would point out, rightly, that classical and pagan references in rock & roll are meaningless for the exact same reason; that “nobody believes that.” Hence we would infer that even apart from the fact that guilt by association is a logical fallacy, all of the guilt by association arguments Rajesh makes are moot by the logic of his own source.
If we should desire to leave the logical fallacy of “appeal to authority” behind, however, the references in the song are pretty clear. Elysium refers to a pagan paradise after death from Greek mythology, and it has strong parallels in Norse/Teutonic mythology when labeled as “Valhalla” . The song is addressed to the “daughter of Elysium”, the “beautiful spark of Divinity”, clearly references the occult practice of magic as coming from her, draws a picture in the second stanza of men winning her (sexual) love, draws a picture of all creation drinking from Nature’s breasts (clear reference to various nature deities like Gaia), and more. All in all, it would make a great set of lyrics for a song by “Kiss” or “Iron Maiden”.
You may quibble “oh, but it doesn’t reference these deities by name”, and to that, I respond, it’s poetry, not prose. The great poets tend to make allusions instead of stating things directly—those that state things directly all the time write what is called “doggerel.”
Ball is back in your court, Rajesh. Looks like someone at your prestigious set of sources needs to bone up on how to interpret poetry and references to pagan religion. I’d suggest starting with Bulfinch’s mythology, as generations of high school students, including myself a few years back, have done.
One final note is that, contrary to your sources, there was and is an active neopagan trend. Back in Schiller’s time, it was the Freemasons (among others), a fact attested to by the setting of the light opera “The Magic Flute.” Today, there are lively assocations of neopagans all over, a fact with which I became very familiar while living in and around Boulder. They even got some fairly favorable press in the campus paper.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
I do not know what you are talking about when you speak about “classical and pagan references in rock & roll” so I have nothing further to say about that.
Because you say that certain things are “pretty clear” in poetic references, that makes it so? Hardly.
You have expressed your opinions. I have provided an authoritative source who has voiced his opinions. Those who care to pursue this matter further must make their own judgments.
More importantly, you have already shown yourself more than once to be someone who has intellectually misrepresented (whether intentionally or not is something that only you and God know for sure) materials that you read that you claim clearly say something when the authors (including me) plainly did not say any such things.
I will continue to research this matter further, as time allows.
My searches so far about neopaganism seem to indicate that Schiller died before neopaganism began, at least according to the following sources.[Bert Perry]One final note is that, contrary to your sources, there was and is an active neopagan trend. Back in Schiller’s time, it was the Freemasons (among others), a fact attested to by the setting of the light opera “The Magic Flute.” Today, there are lively assocations of neopagans all over, a fact with which I became very familiar while living in and around Boulder. They even got some fairly favorable press in the campus paper.
Neo-Paganism is a new religious movement that began in the United States in the 1960s, with literary roots going back to mid-19th century Europe, as attempts to revive what their founders thought were the best aspects of ancient pagan ways, blended with modern humanistic and pluralistic ideals, while consciously striving to eliminate certain elements of traditional Western monotheism, including dualistic thinking and sexual puritanism.
If Bert Perry’s statements are correct, one wonders why all of these sources provide faulty information that erroneously indicates to us that neopaganism refers to movements that originated at a later time than Schiller’s death in 1805.
Rajesh, neopaganism can be described as a movement (your definition), or it can be described as a synthesis of syncretism in Roman Catholicism, remanent paganism spread around Europe, and the outgrowth of freemasonry, all of which certainly did exist in Europe (and the United States) at the time. That’s why I pointed out The Magic Flute as an example of the thinking at the time. You’ll also see the same kind of thing in art (that’s why wiki points to Renaissance revivalism), opera, and the like. In Florence, the degree of pagan behavior was such that for a time, the city’s very name became synonymous with the pagan habit of the eromenos.
So nice quibble, but the fact is that modern paganism did exist around the time of Schiller, and was moreover tremendously influential at the time.
Now, did you look up “Elysium”, “Valhalla”, and “nature deities” to determine that the other things that I’ve told you are, ahem, entirely true? You could have discovered this simply by doing what I have high confidence you were taught in school—pull out the encyclopaedia and look.
Now, since we know that those classical, pagan references are real, true, and were influential in the lives of at least a subset of the hearers at the time (and now), and moreover include the occult/magic, you might revisit whether this is acceptable.
Or, you might discard guilt by association fallacies. Your choice.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]I did not offer any definition of my own—I quoted 3 sources, including interestingly enough a source with the url “neo-paganism.org” and merely used the terminology provided by that source, “Neo-Paganism is a new religious movement that began in the United States in the 1960s …[bold added to the original].”Rajesh, neopaganism can be described as a movement (your definition), or it can be described as a synthesis of syncretism in Roman Catholicism, remanent paganism spread around Europe, and the outgrowth of freemasonry, all of which certainly did exist in Europe (and the United States) at the time. That’s why I pointed out The Magic Flute as an example of the thinking at the time. You’ll also see the same kind of thing in art (that’s why wiki points to Renaissance revivalism), opera, and the like. In Florence, the degree of pagan behavior was such that for a time, the city’s very name became synonymous with the pagan habit of the eromenos.
So nice quibble, but the fact is that modern paganism did exist around the time of Schiller, and was moreover tremendously influential at the time.
Now, did you look up “Elysium”, “Valhalla”, and “nature deities” to determine that the other things that I’ve told you are, ahem, entirely true? You could have discovered this simply by doing what I have high confidence you were taught in school—pull out the encyclopaedia and look.
Now, since we know that those classical, pagan references are real, true, and were influential in the lives of at least a subset of the hearers at the time (and now), and moreover include the occult/magic, you might revisit whether this is acceptable.
Or, you might discard guilt by association fallacies. Your choice.
Furthermore, I did look up Elysium, and it does not prove anything about what you claim about a hymn “to the pagan gods of Europe.” I do not need to look up the other terms because they are irrelevant because they are not mentioned in An die Freude.
As for allusions in poetry, they are not the same thing as direct address to “the pagan gods of Europe” and at least one person who is well-versed in music history says that they are nothing but symbolic in nature.
As for your repeated statements about my using GBA fallacies, honest readers of what I have posted in this thread and elsewhere can easily see for themselves what is true and what is not about what you claim.
Provided that the information from this source is authentic, we see that rock musician Little Richard said that he believed that rock music was “demonic.” He also said that “a lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo drums.”
Notice that he did not qualify his statements by saying that he only believed that his own rock music was demonic.
Notice also that this rock musician who said that he had studied “music in rhythms” directly connected rock music and voodoo via his statement about “a lot of the beats in music today.”
Even more noteworthy is his statement about what he believed this kind of music was doing—“driving people from Christ”!
Define “Rock music”
I hesitate to comment on this thread, but I will.
The Little Richard quote. I need proof that Little Richard said this before I believe for a second that he did. It makes no sense that a guy like him would describe “rock music” as “driving people from Christ.” I am dubious.
I did a brief internet search and see no corroborating info to confirm Little Richard said this. So I consider it pure fantasy and made up “support.”
[Jim]Define “Rock music”
You can Google it, and find one or more sources that will provide a definition for you, if you so desire.
The Bible does not teach that God’s people are under any obligation to study the unfruitful works of darkness and define them for themselves.
They are instead taught to refer to such things by the terms that the evil people who have originated, popularized, and used them refer to them.
Based on what the Bible teaches, I am not going to engage in any musicological discussions of any type with you or anyone else.
[Mark_Smith]I qualified what I said in my original post, in case you missed it.I hesitate to comment on this thread, but I will.
The Little Richard quote. I need proof that Little Richard said this before I believe for a second that he did. It makes no sense that a guy like him would describe “rock music” as “driving people from Christ.” I am dubious.
I did a brief internet search and see no corroborating info to confirm Little Richard said this. So I consider it pure fantasy and made up “support.”
There are other sites that cite some parts of the same quote and provide bibliographic information, but they do not cite that last part of this quote in them so I do not have corroborating information for that last part (or the other parts that are not cited in the other sites). Here is one such site:
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/voices_of_rock.html
[RajeshG]The way I see it, Little Richard is using a form of guilt by association. Isn’t he? He’s associating rock music with voodoo.Provided that the information from this source is authentic, we see that rock musician Little Richard said that he believed that rock music was “demonic.” He also said that “a lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo drums.”
Notice that he did not qualify his statements by saying that he only believed that his own rock music was demonic.
Notice also that this rock musician who said that he had studied “music in rhythms” directly connected rock music and voodoo via his statement about “a lot of the beats in music today.”
Even more noteworthy is his statement about what he believed this kind of music was doing—“driving people from Christ”!
The question them becomes whether he is using guilt by association in a fallacious way or a faulty reasoning or a legitimate way. The Bible can use guilt by association in a legitimate way since the Bible authors were inspired and had the Holy Spirit guiding them into making associations that truly connected two things together. We can’t claim the same level of inspired authority for the declarations of Little Richard. He may be correct that the connection means the music is demonic, but he also may be wrong that the connection means the music is demonic. Rock music has uses other than voodoo ones, so the connection alone is not proof of the guilt.
If a connection alone is proof of guilt, then I could say motorcycles are guilty of being demonic. After all, motorcycles are associated with demonic biker groups such as Hells Angels and Sons of Satan and the Warlocks. Motorcycles have other uses than with demonic biker gangs, so the connection alone is not proof of the guilt of being demonic.
[Kevin Miller]As I see it, no, he is not using a form of GBA. He said that “a lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo.” He did not say that they were like or similar to voodoo—he said that they are taken from voodoo. He is therefore saying that voodoo is the source of a lot of the beats in music today.The way I see it, Little Richard is using a form of guilt by association. Isn’t he? He’s associating rock music with voodoo.
[RajeshG]How is that NOT associating rock music with voodoo? Being the “source” is QUITE a strong association, is it not?As I see it, no, he is not using a form of GBA. He said that “a lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo.” He did not say that they were like or similar to voodoo—he said that they are taken from voodoo. He is therefore saying that voodoo is the source of a lot of the beats in music today.
[Kevin Miller]The American Heritage Dictionary (1969) explains in a usage note what “associate” means, as follows:How is that NOT associating rock music with voodoo? Being the “source” is QUITE a strong association, is it not?
”Associate implies a relationship of persons having common aims, interests, or the like, or a relationship of things that are similar, complementary, or have connection in one’s thoughts.”
In my thinking, there is a vital difference between source and association. Taking something that is evil directly from a source and using it in other contexts, that is not association—it is sameness. Association would be the case if things were similar, complementary, etc., but not the same.
[RajeshG]So do you think that Little Richard is making an authoritative claim that “a lot of the beats in music today” did not exist before voodoo, but had their first expression in this world during a voodoo session? Is that what you think Little Richard is claiming?The American Heritage Dictionary (1969) explains in a usage note what “associate” means, as follows:
”Associate implies a relationship of persons having common aims, interests, or the like, or a relationship of things that are similar, complementary, or have connection in one’s thoughts.”
In my thinking, there is a vital difference between source and association. Taking something that is evil directly from a source and using it in other contexts, that is not association—it is sameness. Association would be the case if things were similar, complementary, etc., but not the same.
[Kevin Miller]I think that he is making a valid and very concerning statement that “a lot of beats in music today” are voodoo music.So do you think that Little Richard is making an authoritative claim that “a lot of the beats in music today” did not exist before voodoo, but had their first expression in this world during a voodoo session? Is that what you think Little Richard is claiming?
Concerning things of the occult, whether they existed before the occult or not is not something that God ever directs His people to determine. Put differently, God never authorizes us to go sample, study, examine, investigate, etc. all things of the occult to determine what things were originated by the occultists themselves and what things were not so that we can then freely use in worship what things were not originated by the occultists.
Discussion