What commission ?
Forum category
I was reading in a thread and saw where Jim had made the following post -
◦Each believer will give an account for his faithfulness and obedience in all things (the Great Commission included!).
Its easy enough to understand that not many of you see things quite like I do. And thats fine. But I don’t see things as I do just to have something to disagree on. I see what I see because with my limited understanding, Thats what I see the Bible saying.
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even: unto the end of the world. Amen.
If we take a good look at what this passage says, And if we let the BIble speak without trying to add something to it, What does it say ?
1- The eleven are the ones spoken to.
2- They are told to go and teach all nations. But where did they (the eleven) go ?
3- The eleven are told “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:” To my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, Romans- Philemon was not part of what our Lord commanded the eleven.
So I ask you Jim and anyone else who thinks likewise, If you make a stand as in the quote above, And you tell me I will be judged by the way I follow it ( seems to fly in the face of Romans 2:16) Just exactly what is it you think I am to do ? What are we to teach ?
The eleven are told “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:”
Was not one of his first commandments -
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any: city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
It is not my wish to anger any of you. You made the statement and say I will be judged by it. I read my Bible and see something that seems otherwise so what am I to do but ask ?
◦Each believer will give an account for his faithfulness and obedience in all things (the Great Commission included!).
Its easy enough to understand that not many of you see things quite like I do. And thats fine. But I don’t see things as I do just to have something to disagree on. I see what I see because with my limited understanding, Thats what I see the Bible saying.
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even: unto the end of the world. Amen.
If we take a good look at what this passage says, And if we let the BIble speak without trying to add something to it, What does it say ?
1- The eleven are the ones spoken to.
2- They are told to go and teach all nations. But where did they (the eleven) go ?
3- The eleven are told “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:” To my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, Romans- Philemon was not part of what our Lord commanded the eleven.
So I ask you Jim and anyone else who thinks likewise, If you make a stand as in the quote above, And you tell me I will be judged by the way I follow it ( seems to fly in the face of Romans 2:16) Just exactly what is it you think I am to do ? What are we to teach ?
The eleven are told “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:”
Was not one of his first commandments -
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any: city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
It is not my wish to anger any of you. You made the statement and say I will be judged by it. I read my Bible and see something that seems otherwise so what am I to do but ask ?
- 16 views
Well, then it would seem Jesus Himself is contradicting Himself when He says go, and teach all nations. But in Matt 10 He says Go to the lost house of Israel. Not to mention, hardly any of us have ever had a ‘charismatic’ type experience as described in Matt 10:8, let alone raising the dead. So if you are going to take that interpretation, I hope you are being consistent and doing all of those things listed in v8.
Daniel, Good point but I have a feeling you have things reversed. My post was about someone trying to apply the great commission to me when he is clearly speaking to the eleven. I could very well ask those who believe as Jim does why they are not out casting out demons and healing the sick.
I believe the eleven could. They were commanded to do so, But the point is, Were we ?
As to Jesus saying don’t go to the gentiles and then saying go to the nations ? Well, Could he not have sent them to the Jews in every nation ? Or better yet, Just as a parent may tell a child “Don’t go” to a place for years and then one day feeling they are ready tell them to go.
I may not understand clearly what was being said but I am sure of one thing, My LORD was not mistaken.
I believe the great commission will take place but I believe that it will be after the church is taken out in the rapture. All I’m looking for here is for someone to explain to me how it is they figure what was commanded to the eleven applies to me. Is it something the Bible says, or something they have read into it ?
I believe the eleven could. They were commanded to do so, But the point is, Were we ?
As to Jesus saying don’t go to the gentiles and then saying go to the nations ? Well, Could he not have sent them to the Jews in every nation ? Or better yet, Just as a parent may tell a child “Don’t go” to a place for years and then one day feeling they are ready tell them to go.
I may not understand clearly what was being said but I am sure of one thing, My LORD was not mistaken.
I believe the great commission will take place but I believe that it will be after the church is taken out in the rapture. All I’m looking for here is for someone to explain to me how it is they figure what was commanded to the eleven applies to me. Is it something the Bible says, or something they have read into it ?
Don’t you just love John 14 where Jesus told us that he was going to prepare a place for us? But read the end of 13:
Communion/ Lord’s table was given to the disciples. Was Paul wrong to open it up for all believers?
Do you disregard Acts 1:8 as well? It was written to the Apostles. Of course they are foundational to all Christianity and teach us the things of the Lord.
Finally as we rightly divide the word we consider this always:
Joh 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.Read straight on into 14 as it was written. Jesus was speaking to peter, not me.
Joh 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
Communion/ Lord’s table was given to the disciples. Was Paul wrong to open it up for all believers?
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:The eleven could not physically carry the gospel to all nations.
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
Do you disregard Acts 1:8 as well? It was written to the Apostles. Of course they are foundational to all Christianity and teach us the things of the Lord.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;Is Matt 5:16 to us or not?
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.I realize there are difficulties here with raising the dead and such but as a basic cessationist I believe there are some things that were given as Heb 2 says:
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;to authenticate the New covenant and the new scriptures.
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Finally as we rightly divide the word we consider this always:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I would ask that you go back through the 4 gospels and read all that Jesus taught. Write them all down in order. Now read them one after the other and ask yourself if you really want to go out and preach this. Don’t add anything to it. Do just as Jesus says. What would you be preaching ?
And yes, I know. People take the great commission and add Paul’s gospel to it and I also know that this is likely what Jim meant. But is it what the BIble says ?
The fact that people will stand and preach the Word of GOD is a wonderful thing. It was through hearing the Word preached that I came to be saved and I think we should all be ready to share the gospel. My problem is not with the idea of sharing the gospel. Its all about someone saying I will be judged for not preaching the kingdom.
And yes, I know. People take the great commission and add Paul’s gospel to it and I also know that this is likely what Jim meant. But is it what the BIble says ?
The fact that people will stand and preach the Word of GOD is a wonderful thing. It was through hearing the Word preached that I came to be saved and I think we should all be ready to share the gospel. My problem is not with the idea of sharing the gospel. Its all about someone saying I will be judged for not preaching the kingdom.
Marty, Acts 1:8 clarifies it for us. If that isn’t enough, then the example of Paul (who was not part of the 11 in Matt 28) throughout the book of Acts, as well as his own testimony of his ministry throughout his epistles should give us light also.
Furthermore, if the commission Jesus gives to the 11 is to teach all nations (NOTE: He did NOT say teach all Jews in all nations…He said teach all nations…) is for them to teach all nations to “observe all things whatsoever I commanded you” then indeed this IS the great commission. If Jesus taught them to go and preach the gospel (Mark 16 and Acts 1) and also instruct those believers (Matt28) then those believers will continue the trend of preaching the gospel and teaching their converts. This is what Paul confirms to Timothy (II Tim. 2:1-2).
In Christ,
Furthermore, if the commission Jesus gives to the 11 is to teach all nations (NOTE: He did NOT say teach all Jews in all nations…He said teach all nations…) is for them to teach all nations to “observe all things whatsoever I commanded you” then indeed this IS the great commission. If Jesus taught them to go and preach the gospel (Mark 16 and Acts 1) and also instruct those believers (Matt28) then those believers will continue the trend of preaching the gospel and teaching their converts. This is what Paul confirms to Timothy (II Tim. 2:1-2).
In Christ,
Pastor Steve Schwenke Liberty Baptist Church Amarillo, TX
It should be noted that a legitimate interpretation of Acts 1:8 is that it’s not a command, but a “prophetic” statement. IOW, Jesus was telling his disciples what would end up happening in the years ahead. When you track the unfolding of Acts, you discover that the prophetic outline of 1:8 plays out exactly. FWIW, this is my take on the verse.
Marty,
You are discounting the totality of the Scriptures. Jesus is the Messiah. A Savior for all individuals of all time. The message of this cosmic rescue plan begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. By attempting to isolate Jesus’ words as His only communication to mankind and therefore, encasing the teachings as audience specific, you are missing the woven gospel thread throughout Scripture. Moses taught the Messiah, Job taught the Messiah, David taught the Messiah, Isaiah taught the Messiah, Joel taught the Messiah, John the Baptizer taught the Messiah….then Jesus revealed himself as the Messiah. Once this occurred, the apostles taught the Messiah, the disciples taught the Messiah, the early church had elders that taught the Messiah….you get the point. All of Scripture is about our rescue/reconciliation through the blood of a Savior-King, and our subsequent walk of faith.
The other options you might be advocating are a secondary gospel preached by Paul, or a such a massive distinction between the church and Israel, that little of the Bible pertains to the church. This is at best a fallacy, and at worst a heresy.
You are discounting the totality of the Scriptures. Jesus is the Messiah. A Savior for all individuals of all time. The message of this cosmic rescue plan begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. By attempting to isolate Jesus’ words as His only communication to mankind and therefore, encasing the teachings as audience specific, you are missing the woven gospel thread throughout Scripture. Moses taught the Messiah, Job taught the Messiah, David taught the Messiah, Isaiah taught the Messiah, Joel taught the Messiah, John the Baptizer taught the Messiah….then Jesus revealed himself as the Messiah. Once this occurred, the apostles taught the Messiah, the disciples taught the Messiah, the early church had elders that taught the Messiah….you get the point. All of Scripture is about our rescue/reconciliation through the blood of a Savior-King, and our subsequent walk of faith.
The other options you might be advocating are a secondary gospel preached by Paul, or a such a massive distinction between the church and Israel, that little of the Bible pertains to the church. This is at best a fallacy, and at worst a heresy.
Ok Dmicah. taken in order, ” Jesus is the Messiah. A Savior for all individuals of all time”
Yes Jesus is GOD in the flesh. But as to the rest of your statement ? I think you need to sit back and think about it for a moment.
When you step out on a path thought path such as you have, You are making huge leaps.
As I said, Jesus is GOD.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And there is only ONE GOD.
Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Now, that said we can back up to the begining. Adam was made and there was one man. This man was given a wife and together they raised a family. And all men came from this begining. Years and generations pass and man is still man. All the world is of one huge family with one GOD and all men are the same.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.
Now we have one GOD, one family of man ( all men equil ) and one priest. Melchizedek. and all men could access this priest.
But then Abraham shows up and GOD make promises to him. And from this point on, the focus of the BIble turns from the “ALL MEN” idea to Abraham and his children. THe Jew. Before too long Moses shows up and is given the Law..
Now, In the time that has passed from Abraham to Moses I don’t know of what became of Melchizedek. Where did he go ? Why did he go ? You tell me. The simple fact is, He is gone..Hold that point.
Moses is given the Law from GOD. This Law is not like man’s laws. You can’t hire a lawyer and worm your way out of it..
A few facts and a few thoughts here. for one thing, this law was given ONLY to the Jew. And for the next couple of thousand years, (as best I can recall, read for yourself) If GOD spoke, it was to a Jew. IF GOD gave his WORD to be written, It was to a Jew. If GOD delt with a non Jew, It was through a Jew. ( as a rule, could be exceptions but none I can think of off hand )
Get the point ? GOD made his choice. What about all the millions and millions of gentiles that lived in those days ? If they didn’t have Melchizedek, what did they have ?
Jump forward a great many years and you can read of the BIrth of Jesus Christ. A Jew of the line of David But also GOD in the flesh.
Now, there is only one GOD and this is he. But unlike you offer, When a gentile comes to him, what does he say and do ?
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Over the years I have seem many people try and put many twists on this. They give one reason after another. All IMO wrong. THe simple fact is/was that she was a gentile.
It was unlawful for a Jew to speak to or eat with or have dealings with a gentile. They were unclean ! Mark the words of Jesus carefully. He called the Jews children and her a dog ! ! !
Now unless you can trace your family tree back to Abraham, You WOULD have been in the same boat as this other “Dog”
She somehow came up with enough FAITH that the LORD had mercy. And don’t think for a second this was an easy thing for her to do. The Jews had the OT, Where did she learn ? She was not an adopted Jew. You can disown your child but you can not an adopted one. So had she been, Jesus would not have called her a dog.
Don’t like what I’m saying ?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
You can think on and like or not. You can read and ponder and wonder why. But the BIble was and is VERY clear. There were Jews and there gentiles And until GOD said -
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Gentiles were unclean.. And even after this what does Peter say when he gets to the gentile ?
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
He is saying IT IS unlawful ! Not it was !
Now as far as you saying that I am saying there is a second gospel ? I do not.
There is only one Gospel. But the whole of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not all given at once..
When Simon Peter said “Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. ” That was the Gospel. Even though Jesus had not yet died and been raised.. It was still the Gospel.
When he stood up and preached in acts.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Now he is preaching Christ raised from the dead… And this also is the gospel. But still, not all of it.
So we come to Paul.. Paul said in Acts-
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Notice he is preaching Works.. Pretty much the same thing Peter is preaching in Acts.
But between this time and his writting of Romans something changes. HE no longer speaks of works and he preaches something that had so far had very little mention.. That the blood of Jesus paid for our sins. As well as other things..
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Now you have the Gospel in full. Not another, just an unfolding of the one. Paul said it could not have been given all at once and the reason.
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom] , which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it] , they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Yes Jesus is GOD in the flesh. But as to the rest of your statement ? I think you need to sit back and think about it for a moment.
When you step out on a path thought path such as you have, You are making huge leaps.
As I said, Jesus is GOD.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And there is only ONE GOD.
Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Now, that said we can back up to the begining. Adam was made and there was one man. This man was given a wife and together they raised a family. And all men came from this begining. Years and generations pass and man is still man. All the world is of one huge family with one GOD and all men are the same.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.
Now we have one GOD, one family of man ( all men equil ) and one priest. Melchizedek. and all men could access this priest.
But then Abraham shows up and GOD make promises to him. And from this point on, the focus of the BIble turns from the “ALL MEN” idea to Abraham and his children. THe Jew. Before too long Moses shows up and is given the Law..
Now, In the time that has passed from Abraham to Moses I don’t know of what became of Melchizedek. Where did he go ? Why did he go ? You tell me. The simple fact is, He is gone..Hold that point.
Moses is given the Law from GOD. This Law is not like man’s laws. You can’t hire a lawyer and worm your way out of it..
A few facts and a few thoughts here. for one thing, this law was given ONLY to the Jew. And for the next couple of thousand years, (as best I can recall, read for yourself) If GOD spoke, it was to a Jew. IF GOD gave his WORD to be written, It was to a Jew. If GOD delt with a non Jew, It was through a Jew. ( as a rule, could be exceptions but none I can think of off hand )
Get the point ? GOD made his choice. What about all the millions and millions of gentiles that lived in those days ? If they didn’t have Melchizedek, what did they have ?
Jump forward a great many years and you can read of the BIrth of Jesus Christ. A Jew of the line of David But also GOD in the flesh.
Now, there is only one GOD and this is he. But unlike you offer, When a gentile comes to him, what does he say and do ?
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Over the years I have seem many people try and put many twists on this. They give one reason after another. All IMO wrong. THe simple fact is/was that she was a gentile.
It was unlawful for a Jew to speak to or eat with or have dealings with a gentile. They were unclean ! Mark the words of Jesus carefully. He called the Jews children and her a dog ! ! !
Now unless you can trace your family tree back to Abraham, You WOULD have been in the same boat as this other “Dog”
She somehow came up with enough FAITH that the LORD had mercy. And don’t think for a second this was an easy thing for her to do. The Jews had the OT, Where did she learn ? She was not an adopted Jew. You can disown your child but you can not an adopted one. So had she been, Jesus would not have called her a dog.
Don’t like what I’m saying ?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
You can think on and like or not. You can read and ponder and wonder why. But the BIble was and is VERY clear. There were Jews and there gentiles And until GOD said -
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Gentiles were unclean.. And even after this what does Peter say when he gets to the gentile ?
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
He is saying IT IS unlawful ! Not it was !
Now as far as you saying that I am saying there is a second gospel ? I do not.
There is only one Gospel. But the whole of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not all given at once..
When Simon Peter said “Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. ” That was the Gospel. Even though Jesus had not yet died and been raised.. It was still the Gospel.
When he stood up and preached in acts.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Now he is preaching Christ raised from the dead… And this also is the gospel. But still, not all of it.
So we come to Paul.. Paul said in Acts-
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Notice he is preaching Works.. Pretty much the same thing Peter is preaching in Acts.
But between this time and his writting of Romans something changes. HE no longer speaks of works and he preaches something that had so far had very little mention.. That the blood of Jesus paid for our sins. As well as other things..
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Now you have the Gospel in full. Not another, just an unfolding of the one. Paul said it could not have been given all at once and the reason.
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom] , which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it] , they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Marty, I really am not following your thought process here. But I think you may want to clarfiy what you mean when you say, “Notice he is preaching Works.. Pretty much the same thing Peter is preaching in Acts.” If you are saying he was preaching works in order to be saved, you may want to read our doctrinal statement you signed, “Salvation, the effect of regeneration by the Spirit and the Word, not by works, but by grace through faith.” No where within scripture was salvation through works.
Daniel, I really don’t mean to be rude here and I hope thats not how I sound. But your the one who made such a post.
I am the one trying to tell people to read and understand that at THAT TIME.. That time brother. Not now.
Paul said “and do works meet for repentance” ……………………………………………………
Its BIble.
He said it because that was what he knew.
Later, His eyes were opened and he gave the full account of the gospel.
I tell you that I can not see how anyone could believe or embrace salvation = Jesus + nothing,more than I do. Jesus paid it all. It is not Jesus + works.
What I AM saying is read your Bible without reading the books of Paul into the 4 gospels.
Jesus is GOD brother. Do you not think he could have preached it all ? But he did not tell the gentile woman that she was clean. She was not clean At that time ! And the time had not come for her to be made clean.
To think that it all just happened the day Chist was born is wrong. It unfolded and the Bible makes it clear as to why. Its like the Jews expecting the Christ to take the throne and drive out rome etc right then and there. He is going to do so. But Not back then.
He had other things to do. Its up to you to figure out what and why.
I am the one trying to tell people to read and understand that at THAT TIME.. That time brother. Not now.
Paul said “and do works meet for repentance” ……………………………………………………
Its BIble.
He said it because that was what he knew.
Later, His eyes were opened and he gave the full account of the gospel.
I tell you that I can not see how anyone could believe or embrace salvation = Jesus + nothing,more than I do. Jesus paid it all. It is not Jesus + works.
What I AM saying is read your Bible without reading the books of Paul into the 4 gospels.
Jesus is GOD brother. Do you not think he could have preached it all ? But he did not tell the gentile woman that she was clean. She was not clean At that time ! And the time had not come for her to be made clean.
To think that it all just happened the day Chist was born is wrong. It unfolded and the Bible makes it clear as to why. Its like the Jews expecting the Christ to take the throne and drive out rome etc right then and there. He is going to do so. But Not back then.
He had other things to do. Its up to you to figure out what and why.
Marty, first, where did I make such a statement that salvation was through works?
Second. This passage has nothing to do with a works salvation, as it seems you are implying. (if I am reading something into these quotes, please let me know)
[QUOTE] Notice he is preaching Works.. Pretty much the same thing Peter is preaching in Acts.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] at that time…Paul said “and do works meet for repentance”[/QUOTE]
Third, as a point of clarification, are you saying [B] at some point in history[/B] salvation was through works? This is probably the question I really want answered, as from it stems other questions.
Second. This passage has nothing to do with a works salvation, as it seems you are implying. (if I am reading something into these quotes, please let me know)
[QUOTE] Notice he is preaching Works.. Pretty much the same thing Peter is preaching in Acts.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] at that time…Paul said “and do works meet for repentance”[/QUOTE]
Third, as a point of clarification, are you saying [B] at some point in history[/B] salvation was through works? This is probably the question I really want answered, as from it stems other questions.
Daniel, have you no shame ?
I have been judged already in that I was banned. I was found guilty and banned without forwarnning, without reason being given, without being told the names of those who did or were party to that banning. And while I humbly thank whomever removed the block, It doesn’t change the fact that I was blocked.
Well, You want me to “Hang” Myself ?
There is no salvation outside the Grace of GOD. There is no “Coin” that will pay the sin debt other than the blood of Jesus Christ..
But ( Hold your breath, THis may be just what you are looking for ! )
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Mat 20:14 Take [that] thine [is] , and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
I believe GOD said the above. And I believe that it don’t matter what you like or don’t like, It still says the same thing. If you think otherwise then I offer that it is you that has a problem, not I.
I have already said that Salvation is of GOD. You and I have only to do as is said here.
1Cr 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
What did those Jews under the law have to do ?
I am not in any way shape or form saying man can save himself. Salvation is of GOD and he can do with it as he will and he will be right in doing so. If he asks one people to do such
Neh 1:9 But [if] ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, [yet] will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
Maybe not the best example but I’d think you could see the point. But if you happen upon the scene of an auto accedent and find in the wreckage a drunk who is about to die and is asking about Jesus and salvation, Do you refuse to share the Gospel because he is drunk ? I hope not.
Those under the law had to clean themselves before entering the temple. Can we under the gospel of grace not pray at any time ? Will the LORD not hear the cry of the lost because he is dirty ?
I have picked a silly way to try and get people to see something. ( Meaning asking about the commission ) That may have been poor judgement on my part. But poor judgement don’t make me wrong. It means I’m human. But I am not trying to do anything underhanded. I have said all I have said in the open, trying very hard to show what the Bible says. I do so because that is the way I see it. I have said many times I CAN BE WRONG. But the WORD can not.
I would think that based on that if nothing else some of you would try and see what I do so you could correct me if I’m wrong. Instead you treat me like I’m evil while the fact is that as lowly and sorry as I am, I love the LORD. RIght or wrong, If you thought your brothers were failing to see something in the WORD would you not feel that you had to try and show them ? Well I think that those who take the Kingdom gospel and mix it with the gospel of grace are mistaken. I think that Jesus had reasons for telling the eleven not to go to the gentiles and I have questions about the great commission ( which would be one of the only reasons I could see to think the two could be mixed ) Questions like, if that was given for that day and time, why did Peter James and John not do as they were told ? ( They agreed to stay with the Jews and sealed it with a handshake Gal 2 I think )
I believe that if WE were sent, we would be able to do the things spoken of in Mat 10. I also feel that there is very good reason we can not. That there were promises made to Israel that were FLESH. Jesus raised Lazaras from the dead and as far as I know he died again, so this was not the same as when we are to be raised. But as is said in the OT
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
I believe that
Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Is speaking only to the Jews because they will have flesh and blood bodys and live here on earth having children and making their numbers as the sand, while we will have “Glorified” bodys and will be with the LORD.
I also believe that the Jew has a choice, They can accept Christ as we have and bypass the life on earth to be with Jesus.
And I believe I have asked over and over most of the above in one way or another to try and allow myself to see if there was reason to see other than the way I do. The big one, the one that holds most steadfast in my mind being the gentile woman. Because no matter how you try and turn it, Jesus called her a dog. And if GOD said it, it was true.
She was not equil to a Jew. She had no right to ask of him what she did. This was GOD she was speaking too ! He did not mislead her ! He did not play a trick on her ! He told her the truth. He also said that because of her faith she could have what she wanted. That is far remove from saying it is owed to you because of promises made to your fathers…
Healings are flesh. Blind seeing, lame walking and even the ear of the soldier. I imagine that through great faith there are some that to this day are healed. But not as a rule.
If I am wrong in my understanding, You have had lots of time to show it. Saying it isn’t good enough. GOD’s WORD is all I will accept. I’d expect you to ask the same of me.
Now as for your wish to see me banned, I do not own this site. I am not appointed to rule and or judge. Those that are will answer for what they do and why. It is in their power to ban me and if they do, there is not one thing I can do about it. And if they feel I am doing wrong it is their job to stop me.
So here and now I tell the admins of this site. If you don’t believe I am seeking the truth in GOD’s WORD. If you think I have a hidden agenda, If you think I seek to harm or subvert, Then by all means ban me.
Happy now ?
I have been judged already in that I was banned. I was found guilty and banned without forwarnning, without reason being given, without being told the names of those who did or were party to that banning. And while I humbly thank whomever removed the block, It doesn’t change the fact that I was blocked.
Well, You want me to “Hang” Myself ?
There is no salvation outside the Grace of GOD. There is no “Coin” that will pay the sin debt other than the blood of Jesus Christ..
But ( Hold your breath, THis may be just what you are looking for ! )
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Mat 20:14 Take [that] thine [is] , and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
I believe GOD said the above. And I believe that it don’t matter what you like or don’t like, It still says the same thing. If you think otherwise then I offer that it is you that has a problem, not I.
I have already said that Salvation is of GOD. You and I have only to do as is said here.
1Cr 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
What did those Jews under the law have to do ?
I am not in any way shape or form saying man can save himself. Salvation is of GOD and he can do with it as he will and he will be right in doing so. If he asks one people to do such
Neh 1:9 But [if] ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, [yet] will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
Maybe not the best example but I’d think you could see the point. But if you happen upon the scene of an auto accedent and find in the wreckage a drunk who is about to die and is asking about Jesus and salvation, Do you refuse to share the Gospel because he is drunk ? I hope not.
Those under the law had to clean themselves before entering the temple. Can we under the gospel of grace not pray at any time ? Will the LORD not hear the cry of the lost because he is dirty ?
I have picked a silly way to try and get people to see something. ( Meaning asking about the commission ) That may have been poor judgement on my part. But poor judgement don’t make me wrong. It means I’m human. But I am not trying to do anything underhanded. I have said all I have said in the open, trying very hard to show what the Bible says. I do so because that is the way I see it. I have said many times I CAN BE WRONG. But the WORD can not.
I would think that based on that if nothing else some of you would try and see what I do so you could correct me if I’m wrong. Instead you treat me like I’m evil while the fact is that as lowly and sorry as I am, I love the LORD. RIght or wrong, If you thought your brothers were failing to see something in the WORD would you not feel that you had to try and show them ? Well I think that those who take the Kingdom gospel and mix it with the gospel of grace are mistaken. I think that Jesus had reasons for telling the eleven not to go to the gentiles and I have questions about the great commission ( which would be one of the only reasons I could see to think the two could be mixed ) Questions like, if that was given for that day and time, why did Peter James and John not do as they were told ? ( They agreed to stay with the Jews and sealed it with a handshake Gal 2 I think )
I believe that if WE were sent, we would be able to do the things spoken of in Mat 10. I also feel that there is very good reason we can not. That there were promises made to Israel that were FLESH. Jesus raised Lazaras from the dead and as far as I know he died again, so this was not the same as when we are to be raised. But as is said in the OT
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
I believe that
Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Is speaking only to the Jews because they will have flesh and blood bodys and live here on earth having children and making their numbers as the sand, while we will have “Glorified” bodys and will be with the LORD.
I also believe that the Jew has a choice, They can accept Christ as we have and bypass the life on earth to be with Jesus.
And I believe I have asked over and over most of the above in one way or another to try and allow myself to see if there was reason to see other than the way I do. The big one, the one that holds most steadfast in my mind being the gentile woman. Because no matter how you try and turn it, Jesus called her a dog. And if GOD said it, it was true.
She was not equil to a Jew. She had no right to ask of him what she did. This was GOD she was speaking too ! He did not mislead her ! He did not play a trick on her ! He told her the truth. He also said that because of her faith she could have what she wanted. That is far remove from saying it is owed to you because of promises made to your fathers…
Healings are flesh. Blind seeing, lame walking and even the ear of the soldier. I imagine that through great faith there are some that to this day are healed. But not as a rule.
If I am wrong in my understanding, You have had lots of time to show it. Saying it isn’t good enough. GOD’s WORD is all I will accept. I’d expect you to ask the same of me.
Now as for your wish to see me banned, I do not own this site. I am not appointed to rule and or judge. Those that are will answer for what they do and why. It is in their power to ban me and if they do, there is not one thing I can do about it. And if they feel I am doing wrong it is their job to stop me.
So here and now I tell the admins of this site. If you don’t believe I am seeking the truth in GOD’s WORD. If you think I have a hidden agenda, If you think I seek to harm or subvert, Then by all means ban me.
Happy now ?
Marty, I’ll get to your post later today, hopefully, but…
All I am doing is asking questions and asking you to define and clarify what you are saying and what you are trying to say. I don’t have to have scripture to ask this. As far as my second point, yes, it does seem like I was trying to disprove what you were saying, and sorry if you took it that way. It was an attempt to ask you to clarify what you meant and to interpret the passage. Thats all.
All I am doing is asking questions and asking you to define and clarify what you are saying and what you are trying to say. I don’t have to have scripture to ask this. As far as my second point, yes, it does seem like I was trying to disprove what you were saying, and sorry if you took it that way. It was an attempt to ask you to clarify what you meant and to interpret the passage. Thats all.
[Marty H] I have been judged already in that I was banned. I was found guilty and banned without forwarnning, without reason being given, without being told the names of those who did or were party to that banning. And while I humbly thank whomever removed the block, It doesn’t change the fact that I was blocked.********** Forum Director Comment ********
…
So here and now I tell the admins of this site. If you don’t believe I am seeking the truth in GOD’s WORD. If you think I have a hidden agenda, If you think I seek to harm or subvert, Then by all means ban me.
Happy now ?
I have not been closely following this thread and I am busy at work and won’t look at it carefully until latter …
But As far as I know, there has been no action suggested or discussed about banning you.
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More
Daniel, have you no shame ?I’m not sure what your beef is with Daniel?
[Marty H] I believe the great commission will take place but I believe that it will be after the church is taken out in the rapture. All I’m looking for here is for someone to explain to me how it is they figure what was commanded to the eleven applies to me. Is it something the Bible says, or something they have read into it ?The OT displays the burden of God for “the nations”
Examples:
- Psalm 67:2 (and really the entire Psalm)
- Psalm 107:2
If one considers a natural view of evangelism it is publicly proclaiming what God has done in one’s life.
[Marty H] I have been judged already in that I was banned. I was found guilty and banned without forwarnning, without reason being given, without being told the names of those who did or were party to that banning. And while I humbly thank whomever removed the block, It doesn’t change the fact that I was blocked.Marty, everyone who signs up for SharperIron is “blocked” by default until we can ensure that they aren’t trolls or Google bots. We may also leave someone as “blocked” temporarily because we need to ask them about something in their profile - changing their login name to something closer to our site policies is the most common reason. It’s not banning - you’ll know if the SI Leadership ever has cause to ban or moderate you - it’s just a way of making sure that whoever is signing up to use the site is actually who they say they are and trying to winnow out people that don’t belong.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Well, I have been back on SI from the opening days. There has been no problem but when Daniel made his post about the doctrinal statement, I got e-mails telling me that he had made the post, and another saying my account had been blocked..
A while later and I get another saying it was unblocked.
Daniel I have wronged you my friend and I am more sorry than I can say. Its no excuse but having just been told I was walking a thin line between erring and heresy had me tore up. Still does.
But to be thinking along those lines and then see Daniels second post. I felt he was trying to goad me into saying something to finish the job of getting myself banned.
I still don’t understand the e-mails and the timing. But I don’t doubt any of you. My words were uncalled for and for that I’m sorry.
Daniel, ask what you like and I will try in my fumbling way to answer. I hope you can forgive me.
A while later and I get another saying it was unblocked.
Daniel I have wronged you my friend and I am more sorry than I can say. Its no excuse but having just been told I was walking a thin line between erring and heresy had me tore up. Still does.
But to be thinking along those lines and then see Daniels second post. I felt he was trying to goad me into saying something to finish the job of getting myself banned.
I still don’t understand the e-mails and the timing. But I don’t doubt any of you. My words were uncalled for and for that I’m sorry.
Daniel, ask what you like and I will try in my fumbling way to answer. I hope you can forgive me.
Marty, not a problem.
Discussion