"...(T)he same energies called forth from the human spirit by rock music, and its descendants, have affected our own institutions, traditions and self-understanding."

I remember another night long ago, when I was in college, and listening to George Michael’s “I Want Your Sex.” A thoughtful Christian who lived on my hall in the dorm asked me how I could listen to those lyrics and remain so unaffected by the sentiment. He wasn’t asking in a prudish way; he was a fan of classic jazz and pop, and as an appreciator of the refined longings expressed in, say, the songs of Cole Porter, he was appalled by the barbarism in the George Michael song. I didn’t have an answer for him, but he did make me reflect on how the lyrics of so many songs I dearly loved expressed sentiments I found at the time distasteful, and, as I matured, would come to find gross.

I gave up listening to George Michael and that lot years ago, not out of moral conviction, but because I was bored by it. But I still don’t have an adequate answer for that question posed to me in my dorm room decades ago.

Let me get this straight- He quit listening to GM, not because GM’s songs/lyrics are immoral, but because he was bored by it. Okaaaayyyy…. so, he found the sentiments distasteful and gross, and perhaps even barbaric, but he didn’t stop listening until he was bored. As he matured he found the messages in the song gross, but he quit listening because it was boring. And he still can’t answer the guy’s question.

You can see that I can’t wrap my mind around this just yet. Perhaps more coffee would do the trick.

I don’t think he’s really trying or succeeding at speaking to our debate. That’s ok - there are other debates out there, but he’s not really engaging in ours per se.

that he is not speaking to the Christian ‘debate’ on rock music, but I’m listening to A Bold Fresh Piece of Humanity by Bill O’Reilly, and he speaks of the attitude and spirit of rock music and how it affected our culture in an adverse way. It isn’t really just a “What’s appropriate for Christians?” debate, IMO, but a sensible acknowledgment that we are affected by the messages we receive every day, be they from print, visual, or audio media, that some messages are immoral, and that the medium itself affects the message.

That piece is the most clueless thing I think I’ve ever seen Dreher write. And I’ve had 3 cups of coffee now.

[Susan R] that he is not speaking to the Christian ‘debate’ on rock music, but I’m listening to A Bold Fresh Piece of Humanity by Bill O’Reilly, and he speaks of the attitude and spirit of rock music and how it affected our culture in an adverse way. It isn’t really just a “What’s appropriate for Christians?” debate, IMO, but a sensible acknowledgment that we are affected by the messages we receive every day, be they from print, visual, or audio media, that some messages are immoral, and that the medium itself affects the message.

That piece is the most clueless thing I think I’ve ever seen Dreher write. And I’ve had 3 cups of coffee now.

I’m with you on the coffee, Susan. I have several thoughts bouncing around my head about this…let’s see what the sweet brew can do to help me make those thoughts coherent!

Music is powerful and throughout history has impacted culture, society, politics, religion…you name it. Pick your era and pick your style…Gregorian chant, waltz, marches, jazz…music impacts. It connects to the deepest part of our soul, it moves us to action. When this happens with a group of people, the outcome can be powerful and world impacting. God’s design was for music to bring Him glory and when it is used to communicate to our souls and unite us around HIM, it’s a beautiful and powerful thing. If music is used to impact the world for negative reasons (rebellion), is that an indictment on the music or the heart of man to which the music moves? IMO, the music is not the enemy or even the reason for these “negative” impacts…it’s the heart of man! Rebellion was around long before Rock-n-Roll!

I agree that rebellion is nothing new, but the medium does affect the message and how we receive it. I wouldn’t say music ‘causes’ rebellion, but just as new technologies enable the us to more quickly and easily get into trouble, music can affect mood and perspective, weaken our inhibitions and color our judgment.

I think when we are talking about something obvious like George Micheal’s music and lyrics, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that his music has is not going to lead anyone anywhere near bringing glory to God. It’s telling IMO that every generation looks back at the music of their youth and realizes how many emotions and expressions they’ve grown out of.

One of the most confusing pieces I have ever read, but now I know. The reason the Soviet Union fell was not the corrupt, empty political system; it was not its forced atheism that produced a population with no values; and not even the arms race and collective farms which bankrupted them and kept them from being able to feed their own people. It was ROCK MUSIC.

Whew! Boy did I ever have the wrong idea. Glad to get that finally explained to me! :-O

[Greg Linscott] I just found it interesting that others who don’t adhere to typical (though growing less so) presuppositions about rock music in our circles see its effects and problems.

… it is insightful to the degree that it helps us understand how many people don’t rationalize what they are actually listening to. I daresay Dreher wasn’t alone when he listened to that song and detatched it from the lyrics as he did- just like a lot of teenagers today aren’t thinking about all the implications when they listen to Katy Perry’s recent hit about kissing a girl and liking it. I mean, why over analyze it? it’s just music, doncha’ know?

I agree- it is interesting that folks without any Fundy baggage will see that music has a significant if not measurable effect on a person’s mood and thought processes. I don’t buy into the “Rock music kills plants” theory, but it is willfully ignorant to dismiss any kind of media as being “just _____”. I think what bothered me about Dreher’s article is that it seemed that even when he did see the inherent problems with George Micheal’s message/music, he didn’t stop listening to it until he ‘got bored’ with it. I’m not going to get that one no matter how much coffee I drink.

When Seth was home on leave he was telling me that when they get ready to go out on convoys, the commander will play ‘thrash metal’ to get the guys pumped up and feeling aggressive. I’m not going to try to remember them because I couldn’t link to the actual songs anyway- too many obscenities- but let’s just say they are not playing ‘We are the Champions” or “When You’re a Jet”. I think the title of one of the songs was a pithy “Die, Die, Die” or something like that.

It is really hard to define how the media and the message work together to create a mood or affect one’s spirit. I had a conversation with my mil once about movies and music, and I told her I’d let my kids watch Alien vs. Predator before I let them watch The Little Mermaid, which she thought was an insane idea. But to me, the target audience and underlying message of The Little Mermaid is much more sinister than a bunch of monsters killing each other in gross and creative ways. I have alot of the same thoughts about music styles and genres, but it is nearly impossible to explain.

it’s just music, doncha’ know?

Greg, I am suprised how quickly you got a MN accent….LOL

Sounds like Greg’s been listening to Sarah Palin too much ;)

[Susan] It is really hard to define how the media and the message work together to create a mood or affect one’s spirit. I had a conversation with my mil once about movies and music, and I told her I’d let my kids watch Alien vs. Predator before I let them watch The Little Mermaid, which she thought was an insane idea. But to me, the target audience and underlying message of The Little Mermaid is much more sinister than a bunch of monsters killing each other in gross and creative ways. I have alot of the same thoughts about music styles and genres, but it is nearly impossible to explain.

No, it’s really not impossible to explain. It just takes someone who is willing to actually sit down and evaluate the content of what they’re watching. I know a family who watched Star Wars [not sure which - one of the three originals] , and paused the movie every time they found something objectionable so they could discuss it. It took the family something like 7 hours to finish it. I was big into Star Wars a long time ago [in a galaxy not so far away ;p] , but I think that it really warped my view of the Holy Spirit because I wasn’t grounded enough spiritually at 15-19 to really pick through the content of it. I’ve done it to a certain extent now, but my wife picks up on it far more than I do, and I’m sure there’s some kind of blind spot in my view of the HS that hasn’t been found yet.

I’m really, really surprised at how many - even preachers sometimes - will sit and watch movies like “Dumb and Dumber” or “Talladega Nights” or speak glowingly of books like “A Generous Orthodoxy” by Brian McLaren, and then tell me what a great movie/book it was.

So now I’m off to watch Aliens v. Predator…just kidding.

Explanations also involve communicating with someone who ‘speaks your language’. For example, in this conversation, my mil felt that I was giving kids too much credit for understanding any underlying messages a movie such as TLM might convey. IOW, it goes over their heads, so what’s the harm? But I don’t believe it goes over their heads- it goes into their subconscious where it accumulates like dust bunnies. So if I’m trying to explain to someone that I believe that the medium is as important as the message, and they believe that it doesn’t really matter (either because the child is too young to understand it, or the person is old enough to compartmentalize it), then you’ve got two people talking past each other.

So there’s Dreher who as a young man was probably thinking that the messages of George Micheal’s songs didn’t effect him- after all, he wasn’t planning to go out and commit serial monogamy. Continuing to listen to music that is gross and distasteful because you believe you are impervious to its influence is the proverbial kid jumping off the garage roof with a trash bag parachute- “Don’t worry Ma- I’ve got this under control!”

While I was listening to Bold Fresh O’Reilly had a great rant about the debasing and violent nature of some music, and how the ‘artists’ try to pretend that their music has no influence… but if you listen to interviews with many popular musicians, they will rhapsodize about how so-and-so’s music changed their life and influenced them.