Bible passages that guide us about secular/unbelieving criticisms of Christian worship music/ministry?

I agree with with this statement of yours:

the noetic effects of sin do not nullify the ability of unbelievers to form valid judgments about the sinfulness of those who profess to be God’s people……………

1. Do you agree that unbelievers can also form invalid judgments about the behavior of God’s people?

2. How can you tell the difference in that judgment of behavior when that behavior is not clearly declared sinful in Scripture?

Which ones do you think are debatable and what do you think is debatable about them?

This is a fair question, but I do want to point out that the answer isn’t particularly important. The reason is that, if we were to stipulate that the examples are all examples of unbelievers giving good advice to believers, what would that prove?

But I don’t mind answering the question. Here are the four examples:

• Exodus 10:7 … here unbelievers give advice to an unbeliever. The advice is pretty good, but not perfect. They recommend letting the men go. Granted, “the men” may be a case of synecdoche, and “the men” may mean “everybody,” but maybe not. Debatable.
• 2 Kings 5:13 …. here unbelievers give advice to an unbeliever. It’s pretty good advice. It would definitely relate better to the question in the opening post if the unbeliever were giving advice to a believer on appropriate features of worship, since that was question. But is it an unbeliever giving good advice? Sure. Nobody in this thread is disputing that this happens.
• Esther 6:13 …. We don’t know if Zeresh was an unbeliever or not. Likely, but we don’t know. Debatable.
• John 18:14 … It’s very debatable that Caiaphas’ advice was good advice here.

Let’s just stipulate for the time being, though, that all these folks were unbelievers and they gave good advice.

This would go to show, as I pointed out before, what we all agree on: Good advice can come from anywhere and it has to be evaluated on its own merits on a case by case basis.

In regards to the opening question in the thread, I don’t think there’s actually any material disagreement at all. It’s the “so what?” that is controversial, and this is a different question than the one you posed, Rajesh.

[RajeshG] Ezekiel 16:27, which I shared earlier, shows us that the noetic effects of sin do not nullify the ability of unbelievers to form valid judgments about the sinfulness of those who profess to be God’s people when those professing people of God become more sinful than unbelievers or sin in blatant ways that even unbelievers know are not fitting for those who profess to be the people of God.

We must account for all such passages in order to make proper applications and assessments.

[RajeshG]

Kevin Miller wrote:

Aaron did a good job of finding verses in which unbelievers gave some advice. Your example of Ezekiel 16:27 is pretty specific in regards to unbelievers pointing out sinfulness in believers. If you are looking for other passages in which unbelievers point out sinfulness in believers, then I can’t come up with any. I’m not sure that there are any others that fit that criterion. If there aren’t any others, then we actually have accounted for all such passages and can start making applications and assessments. In my opinion, even if we’ve only come up with half the passages that apply, we could still make some proper applications. We might be missing some peripheral facet, but we could still make proper applications from the verses that we have. In regards to preaching, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a message in which a preacher has pointed out EVERY SINGLE PASSAGE about his topic before making the application of the message.

There are other passages that pertain and have to be accounted for in order to have a proper theological basis to make sound applications and assessments. Depending on how vast a subject might be, a preacher would not be able to cover it in a single message. Whether he does it in one message or not, all his statements and applications must be based on the totality of revealed truth lest he make faulty statements and applications.

This thread has increased my understanding of how 1 Corinthians 2:14 is being mishandled/misunderstood in a way that is depriving people of sound understanding and practice. It has shown me the importance of my further studying this subject to increase my understanding of what the Bible reveals about unbelievers in various ways.

We’ve covered a number of passages already about the advice given by unbelievers. I highly doubt there are any more passages that pertain, aspecially about advice given by unbelievers about the sinfulness of believers. You don’t have to give all your impressions right now, but could you at least list the passages to which you might be referring when you say we haven’t yet covered them all? I’m perplexed.

I was one of the people who used I Cor 2:14. I said I would tend to be skeptical of the advice of unbelievers, but I also then said “I wouldn’t completely dismiss the recommendations, however, since even an unbeliever can have information that also lines up with Scripture.” Do you think I am mishandling the verse? Do you think we should never be skeptical of the advice of unbelievers?

We’ve covered a number of passages already about the advice given by unbelievers. I highly doubt there are any more passages that pertain, aspecially about advice given by unbelievers about the sinfulness of believers. You don’t have to give all your impressions right now, but could you at least list the passages to which you might be referring when you say we haven’t yet covered them all? I’m perplexed.

As am I, and I think that Kevin made the same points I would make.

That being said, I don’t mean to communicate that I reject all advice from unbelievers. I have an unsaved mechanic, friends, coworkers, and doctor. Of course I take their advice. It would be foolish not to.

When it comes to pointing out issues in the church, however, I stand on 1 Cor. 2:14 and Acts 8:21 - “You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.”

And really, Rajesh, while it’s easy to blast away with one verse from Ezekiel or others, you need to define CCM and the use of it before you start saying it’s completely off limits. Are we talking about CCM in a church setting? Or when I’m driving in my car and running errands? What about the doctrinal content of songs? What about associations with the various groups? Those are all factors. What about people who would disassociate from SoundForth because of their bad experiences with or at BJU? Are they off limits as well?

There are so many more foundational things that have to be discussed before we line up with bats to take shots at a pinata. Random verses from Ezekiel can and may be helpful, but let’s deal with core issues first.

[josh p]

Rajesh,
I might have missed it but did any of the verses that we have come up with pertain to spiritual matters? In other words, does the Bible record any instances of unbelievers giving spiritual instruction to believers? Furthermore, does it go beyond just recording it and affirm its validity? I don’t hunk anyone here is suggesting that an unbeliever can’t give some useful advice so maybe we could narrow the discussion to spiritual things specifically? Thanks

So this passage doesn’t even directly meet the criterion Rajesh spelled out earlier. I’m still hoping he’ll give us the list of the passages we’re missing.

[Quote=Rajesh] Thanks for elaborating, Aaron. I’d have to do some searching, but I am almost certain that there has been, either on this thread or on one of my other ones or both, at least one person who has in effect seemed to categorically deny the ability of an unbeliever to give advice of a spiritual nature, andh e supported his position by citing 1 Cor. 2:14. Also, in previous interactions with other believers in other venues, I have had other peopler reason the same way also. Some of what I am doing in this thread is to show the invalidity of that perspective.

Catching up a little here…

The phrase “of a spiritual nature” is important to note. I wasn’t under the impression that this was the question. Thought we were just talking about good advice in general.

I’m tempted to ask questions like “What does of a spiritual nature mean?” But this would not really be worth the trouble.

Here’s why…

If I were to stipulate for the moment that there is no kind of advice an unbeliever is categorically incapable of giving, what would that prove?

Since I assume we all agree that humans of all sorts are also capable of giving very bad advice, we’re still where we were in my last two posts: since nobody is always right, advice from any source has to be evaluated and weighed on its own merits.

I would also repeat my earlier observation that it makes sense to seek good advice where good advice is most likely to be found.

So even if we suppose nonchristians can provide sound ministry guidance, there’s the issue of probability. Possible doesn’t equal likely or actual.

[Kevin Miller]

I was able to think of a…

Yes that is an interesting one. I have always understood that as the sailors basically “hedging their bets.” They were superstitious and didn’t want Yahweh’s wrath against them. In other words if it was another god they would have done the same. I suspect that you see it this way as well.

[RajeshG]

I agree with the overall thrust of these remarks. There have been many unbelievers who have remarked similarly to what Simmons did about the ungodly character of rock music.

[RajeshG]

3. Passages where unbelievers make comments that have profound spiritual significance that goes far beyond what the unbeliever understands and cannot be explained as the result of their being made in the image of God or the result of “common grace,” such as Caiaphas in John 18; also the demon-possessed girl in Acts 16:16-18

25 Then King Darius wrote to all the nations and peoples of every language in all the earth:

“May you prosper greatly!

26 “I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel.

“For he is the living God
and he endures forever;
his kingdom will not be destroyed,
his dominion will never end.
27 He rescues and he saves;
he performs signs and wonders
in the heavens and on the earth.
He has rescued Daniel
from the power of the lions.”

[RajeshG]

There are other passages that pertain and have to be accounted for in order to have a proper theological basis to make sound applications and assessments.

[RajeshG]

As I said earlier, I have had some difficulty in sorting out exactly what Simmons said in the distinction that he made between the two. What’s clear is that Simmons asserted that rock music was ungodly.

No, if that is what he said about there being a difference between the two, I would not agree with him. Just to head off a potential flurry of responses, I am not going to elaborate any further on my views in this regard. I want to keep my threads focused on profitable interaction about specific texts of Scripture and have no interest in many other sorts of discussions that many others are much more interested in having.

[RajeshG]

Good question. I do not have a definitive answer. I tend to study any subject that I research with great intensity and keep studying and studying. Even so, I consistently have experienced God’s giving me significant additional illumination into subjects when I return to studying them again at later points.

The more thoroughly you study a subject, the better off you will be to be in a sound position to make proper applications and assessments.

“In formulating our understanding on any subject, it is vital for us to account for all the biblical data that pertains. When that is done, the image of God in man, “common grace,” and the noetic effects of sin are important considerations, but they are insufficient to account for and explain all that Scripture reveals.”

So I was thinking you wanted to wait until we discussed in this thread “ALL that Scripture reveals” before we can make applications. I don’t know if we will ever reach that point, since God can always illuminate us with something extra down the line. I think for me, the main point of application is something that has been presented earlier. No matter who gives advice, whether it is from an unbeliever or a believer, we still need to evaluate each piece of advice for truth. Both unbelievers and believers can express truth, but a believer has a more sure foundation for truth than what an unbeliever has.

[Rajesh]

Aaron Blumer wrote:

“Since I assume we all agree that humans of all sorts are also capable of giving very bad advice, we’re still where we were in my last two posts: since nobody is always right, advice from any source has to be evaluated and weighed on its own merits.

I would also repeat my earlier observation that it makes sense to seek good advice where good advice is most likely to be found.

So even if we suppose nonchristians can provide sound ministry guidance, there’s the issue of probability. Possible doesn’t equal likely or actual.”

I agree with the overall thrust of these remarks. There have been many unbelievers who have remarked similarly to what Simmons did about the ungodly character of rock music.

I’m not sure if I’ve made the thrust clear. Or some implications of it clear. There’s an old logical fallacy I don’t remember the name of that reasons sort of like this:

• The evidence I have for A doesn’t support B
• I will accumulate more evidence of A and eventually when I have enough, it will support B.

But the reality is that no amount of biblical evidence that unbelievers can be right sometimes is going to even begin to support the idea that one particular piece of advice from unbelievers is “biblical.” This is a category error.

Having said that, there’s never any harm in looking at more Scriptures and thinking about them! I’m just not sure you’re seeing that they can’t really “apply” in the form of supporting a specific assertion from a particular unbeliever on a specific topic.

What if an unbeliever hears a pastor preach, and in that message the pastor uses words or an illustration or a physical gesture not knowing that in a segment of the population outside the church, that word or illustration or gesture is widely considered to be ungodly. So the unbeliever comes up to the pastor afterwards and says, “That way you communicated means X” and the pastor knows that X is sinful.

Should the pastor

1. Ignore the unbeliever and use it anyway?
2. Listen to the unbeliever and change?

In other words, is is possible that an unbeliever would know more about the culture we live in than a believer would? And if so, how should the believer respond? Do our ignorant yet good intentions sanctify something and make it useful?

[Larry]

What if an unbeliever hears a pastor preach, and in that message the pastor uses words or an illustration or a physical gesture not knowing that in a segment of the population outside the church, that word or illustration or gesture is widely considered to be ungodly. So the unbeliever comes up to the pastor afterwards and says, “That way you communicated means X” and the pastor knows that X is sinful.

Should the pastor

1. Ignore the unbeliever and use it anyway?
2. Listen to the unbeliever and change?

In other words, is is possible that an unbeliever would know more about the culture we live in than a believer would? And if so, how should the believer respond? Do our ignorant yet good intentions sanctify something and make it useful?

We would still have to examine the truthfulness of the unbeliever’s statement before we decided to change.

Well of course, but in the illustration, the pastor agreed that X was sinful.

The point is that sometimes unbelievers know culture better than we do.

[RajeshG]

I am using the discussion of a wide range of relevant biblical passages to refute attempts to say that Simmons’ remarks categorically have to be wrong and should be given no weight simply because he is an unbeliever. In my experience both elsewhere and here at SI, such argumentation has not been uncommon.

Herein lies the problem. You say you can’t make an evaluation until you study all the passages. Yet you say that you are using the discussion of these passages to refute attempts to say that Simmons’ remarks categorically have to be wrong and should be given no weight. If your goal is to refute claims, then you aren’t seeking to learn what Scripture says…you are just looking for passages that can be used to support what you already believe. That means you are pressing your beliefs onto Scripture instead of letting Scripture form your beliefs. Are you truly wanting to learn what Scripture says or are you trying to prove a point?

[RajeshG]

Asserting that what Simmons’ says is to be dismissed entirely just because he is an unbeliever is an invalid assertion that cannot be supported biblically.

From the opening post:

“If you sing pop lyrics, you are going to have a problem with your ministry because rock n’ roll by definition, and popular music, is about sexuality.” A judge then interjected, “And demons.” Simmons then repeated, “And demons.”

— Gene Simmons, a famous rock musician; transcribed from a video clip from an episode where he appeared on American Idol

Should Christians care about what secular/unbelieving people say in negative comments such as these about the worship music/ministry of certain Christians? What Bible passages do you think guide us in knowing what to do with such comments?

It certainly seems like Rajesh believes we should care about what secular/unbelieving people say, or else the original post would have been phrased differently, especially in light of his follow up question. There is no reason to start this thread if Rajesh believes that we should not care about what they say.

We should listen to what unbelieving people say about ministry. My experience has been that sometimes they have a point and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong. I have received good advice on ministry from unsaved people and I’ve bad advice from unsaved people.

In matters where the Bible doesn’t speak clearly on the issue, I have to rely on discernment and prayer.

In the Simmon’s opinion there are Christians who think he has a valid point and there are Christians who think that his opinion is not valid.

I am using the discussion of a wide range of relevant biblical passages to refute attempts to say that Simmons’ remarks categorically have to be wrong and should be given no weight simply because he is an unbeliever.

In that case, the point is established. That is, the Scriptures are clear an unbeliever can be right — even insightful. And the matters that are “spiritually discerned” in 1 Cor. 2.14 (and Eph. 4:18, 2 Cor.4:4 are relevant as well) are probably those directly connected with coming to know the truth of the gospel and personal knowledge of God. They certainly can’t be expanded to something like “any information that might be useful in a ministry context.”

And we all know believers aren’t always right either.

So with any source of information, whether a believer or unbeliever or unknown, the only sensible thing to do is evaluate the information on a combination of a) the credibility of the source and b) the merits of their argument. If they’re just saying “This is what I think,” it’s all about source credibility, because they aren’t even making an argument (other than an implied “because I say so and I know I’m talking about”).

Personally, I put a whole lot more stock in a good supporting argument than I do in a claim of expertise. The latter isn’t worthless, but if it’s the best the proponent can do, his claims deserve to be taken with reservations at best.

I hope that it will provide other people who later might read it carefully with solid biblical evidence to reject the faulty notion about categorically rejecting whatever an unbeliever says that pertains to ministry simply because he is an unbeliever.

In my long life I don’t think I’ve ever encountered someone who “categorically rejects whatever an unbeliever says that pertains to ministry simply because he’s an unbeliever.” I know some people who have rejected what unbelievers have said about ministry because the unbeliever is wrong.

In this case there are Christians who reject what Simmons says because he’s wrong, not because he’s an unbeliever. There are Christians who agree with what Simmons says and there are other Christians who think they’re wrong as wrong as Simmons.