How does God want Christians to profit concerning worship from Exodus 32:17-20?

[RajeshG]

TylerR wrote:

Tell me, then, what is your point about Exodus 32? Can you really not draw any practical conclusions for corporate worship? Is something like, “God thinks music is important” all you have? We’d agree with that. Do you have something more? What do you want from people on this thread, if you won’t get down to brass tacks about practical application in light of your interpretation?

One specific application that I see from the passage is that it attests to the differing levels of musical discernment between two very godly men, Moses and Joshua, and the need to value the greater discernment that older, more experienced leaders have. Churches should not give younger men such as youth pastors and other youth workers the freedom to do what they want to do musically in youth ministries when godly senior leaders have qualms about what the younger men want to do musically but are not able to quite put a finger on why they have those qualms about what the younger men want to do.

Senior leaders must be vigilant to be fully informed about what those under them are doing musically and make sure that they instruct them about what they are to do musically.

Um, this passage does not say that. Why not let the Bible say what the Bible says instead of coming up with some left field application so far removed from the passage that there is no connection whatsoever? Why do you feel the need to do that if it is not to curve fit support for your personal theories on music?

[RajeshG]

One specific application that I see from the passage is that it attests to the differing levels of musical discernment between two very godly men, Moses and Joshua, and the need to value the greater discernment that older, more experienced leaders have. Churches should not give younger men such as youth pastors and other youth workers the freedom to do what they want to do musically in youth ministries when godly senior leaders have qualms about what the younger men want to do musically but are not able to quite put a finger on why they have those qualms about what the younger men want to do.

Senior leaders must be vigilant to be fully informed about what those under them are doing musically and make sure that they instruct them about what they are to do musically.

OK, the light is finally beginning to glimmer. It’s clear you have no specifics to give on what qualities in music are sensual or evil or ungodly. It sounds as if your real contention is that younger men should defer to those with more experience on a topic, even if those men have only “qualms,” and can’t, as you put it, “quite put a finger on why they have those qualms.”

What that comes down to is that younger men should just do what senior men say because they say it. The senior men can instruct the less-senior men about what to do, even if they have no reasons they can give as to why, other than hunches (qualms). That doesn’t sound to me much like a scriptural instruction model between pastors and other adults. If a 5-year-old doesn’t do something “because my Daddy says so,” that’s generally a good reason, and we applaud that thinking. That’s not a good reason for a teenager to give to a parent, let alone associate/assistant pastors, or even educated laymen in the church when asked about their position(s). “I believe it because my pastor says so” would normally be seen as an answer from someone who can’t do their own study and thinking, and not from “Berean” Christians.

[RajeshG]

Um, saying, “This passage does not say that” is not substantive argumentation; it merely expresses your opinion. Why do you feel the need to keep on maligning me without any substantive argumentation from Scripture itself to support your personal theories on music?

I don’t feel any need to argue my personal theories on music because I am not the one trying to convince anyone (as you are). I really have no interest in this particular issue but I can’t help myself from pointing out what you are doing. Your “application” was pulled out of thin air to support your attacks on CCM. This passage says nothing about older/younger leaders. Nothing. In fact, you have no idea really how many leaders were in the camp besides Joshua that were older than Moses. In fact, as I recall, Aaron himself was older than Moses. Why should Moses not have listened to Aaron?

You can do what you want to do. But you are being irresponsible with the Bible you claim to want to profit from. Speaking for myself, I would never sit through a sermon of your kind of exegesis. If you can’t see what you are doing, you have some serious blinders on.

It is a very serious misstep to say that if there is no specific musicological criteria that Scripture gives or that people can give, everything is acceptable to God.

But there is no one here - and no one I have ever met - that actually believes that “everything” is acceptable for worship music. Everyone draws the line somewhere, even if it’s taking a top 40 song and “christianizing” it with somewhat theological lyrics to use in worship services.

It is a very serious misstep to say that if there is no specific musicological criteria that Scripture gives or that people can give, everything is acceptable to God.

I’ve been hearing this kind of argument for decades. When someone has nothing substantial to present in their defense, they create an imaginary enemy to keep their followers in “The Village”.

[RajeshG]

No, my application was not pulled out of thin air. The fact is Moses was the God-chosen supreme leader of the Israelites and Joshua was much younger than him.

In the verses recorded, Aaron is not in view; only Moses and Joshua are recorded as hearing from afar the sound that was emanating from the camp. In fact, Aaron was in the camp with the people and had failed God and the people greatly by failing to restrain the people and prevent them from sinning in the heinous ways that they did on this occasion.

Furthermore, Aaron was not chosen by God to provide the same kind of leadership that Moses was. It does not matter whether there were any other leaders older than Moses among the people because they were not chosen by God to be in charge of His people in the capacity that he was.

There is a very close parallel to what exists in many churches. There may be many men who are older than the senior pastor who are deacons, elders, or leaders in some other capacity, but they are not the senior pastor whom God and the flock has entrusted with leadership of the church.

Joshua was Moses’ personal servant who was given privileges that no other man was given and would later by divine choice become the God-chosen leader of the Israelites in the future.

It is irrelevant whether there were other leaders in between Joshua and Moses because they were the only two present to hear the sound from afar, etc.

The passage certainly is talking about the top leader who was much older than a younger servant of God who was also present and it does reveal that they had differing abilities to discriminate musically sound that they heard from afar.

All right, now I understand and agree except I don’t think it was about who was younger and who was older. I think it was based on the first letter of their names. People with names that start with “M” (for “music”) such as Moses should be deferred to. Jim on the other hand is out of luck. If we could just get a list of the people posting here whose names start with M.

Ridiculous? I would suggest my application has as much backing from that passage as yours.

You hold an earned PhD. You’re better than this. What implications does Exodus 32 have for music? That’s the question you asked. What are your conclusions so far?

[RajeshG]

Better than what? My efforts to have a constructive edifying discussion have been largely met with comments attacking me in various ways or trying to divert the discussion in other directions. As a result, I have not been able to bring out aspects of the passage that need to be dealt with to support my understanding of its implications for music.

The point is that there is nothing in this passage about music except it is sort of mentioned indirectly a few times. Anything you try to teach about music from this passage has to come out of thin air and it will be rejected by anyone that is not already on board with your position. If you go preach this at a Gothard event, they will welcome you with open arms. Not here though.

Perhaps you should instead focus on the implications of rocks/stones in the life of Christians from this passage. The stones Moses threw on the ground have a far more prominent place in the story than music. Perhaps one could surmise that when Christians throw stones, bad things happen. :)

When I asked these simple questions in the late 50’s, the SS teacher called my Mom and told her I was disrupting the class with my questions. Being an obedient child (and provided with some physical encouragement) I was silent.

When I asked these questions in the 60’s and 70’s, I was labeled a rebellious teenager who was sinfully questioning authority. (That’s when I quit going to church, not returning until after my conversion.

In the 80’s I was warned that questions that I asked that may have been interpreted as challenging accepted traditional teaching could get me shipped.

In the 90’s the internet opened up a place for discussion where questions could not be silenced. I started getting Biblical answers from patient teachers and discovered a host of Christians 40 years younger than myself who had been on the same journey.

I have an older pastor friend who told me that our generation would be wise to admit that we taught some things as fact that just weren’t so. For a miniscule example that is not intended as a major point of this post, in the 60’s and 70’s the guitar was considered a “worldly” instrument because of its use in rock, folk, and C and W music and my preacher friends and I preached it as Bible truth. I’ll venture the assertion that you’re happy we changed our minds.

[RajeshG]…some of the things that you list in your bullet points cannot be answered in the manner that you desire.

In not answering Tyler here you are slippery at best … dodgy at worse

I’ve been thinking about this post by Rajesh:

One specific application that I see from the passage is that it attests to the differing levels of musical discernment between two very godly men, Moses and Joshua, and the need to value the greater discernment that older, more experienced leaders have. Churches should not give younger men such as youth pastors and other youth workers the freedom to do what they want to do musically in youth ministries when godly senior leaders have qualms about what the younger men want to do musically but are not able to quite put a finger on why they have those qualms about what the younger men want to do.

Senior leaders must be vigilant to be fully informed about what those under them are doing musically and make sure that they instruct them about what they are to do musically.

And while I think Rajesh has a point, I’d argue that he isn’t applying it thoroughly enough. We should just let the older men do all the leading, not just on issues of music in worship. After all, the youth pastors may want to do something with the youth that the “godly senior leader” disagrees with, so they (and anyone else) should just submit to the wisdom of the “godly senior leaders” that God has clearly appointed. After all, they’re godly senior leaders. Why are we fooling around with younger leaders who may not be as godly?

Oh I forgot that defensive move!!!! The one where the one being questioned accuses the questioners of insulting him. No one has insulted you. No one. They called Paul a “seed-picker” and it didn’t stop him from graciously responding to his listeners.

Here are Tyler’s four direct questions where asks for simple, direct answers. Will you answer them? Yes or no. BTW, they’re the questions I was asking 45 years ago.

In light of your understanding of Exodus 32, pretend you’re preaching a sermon and tell us, in concrete detail without abstractions:

What the singing was

Why it was sinful

What we should do to avoid making the same mistake

What holy and acceptable music is and what it looks like

Pretend a 15 year old girl at your church is taking notes, and wants to make this a reality in her life. She’s looking up at the pulpit, notebook at the ready, pen in hand, waiting. What will you say?

…that is different from what I intended this thread to be.

That’s exactly the point that people in the thread have been making, Rajesh. You aren’t here to discuss, but to argue or proselytize.

It’s interesting to me that you refer to what you expect four times in those last two sentences. That’s not the attitude of someone who wants discussion or even debate. That’s the attitude of someone looking for affirmation, whether it is deserved or not.

The mods should close this thread. There is no point in entertaining this.

As more than a few of the people have already said, we don’t agree with you or your novel interpretation of Exodus 32. TylerR did a masterful job of taking apart Exodus 32, and yet your response is to obfuscate, sidestep, or dodge almost anything that doesn’t line up with your predetermined ideas, including things contained within that passage itself. Now you refuse to answer even the most basic questions put to you on how your teaching should work “in real life” until we subject ourselves to yet more of your teaching. As someone noted, you have a Ph.D. from Bob Jones in New Testament Interpretation. You ought to be a better teacher than this.

You have a blog to promulgate your ideas. You have also said that your idea of how SI should work doesn’t line up with the reality of life on a discussion board anywhere on the internet. So what are you doing here? I would rather believe you are confused or looking for affirmation than you are here to pick a fight or to sow discord, but it’s getting hard for me to believe that.

I have seen many men join SI like you, and when they don’t get the attention or affirmation they are seeking for their crazy eisegetical interpretations, they move on to somewhere else seeking a more receptive and/or docile audience. I expect that your tenure here will be brief and follow their pattern. Let me encourage you to move on now and stop wasting everyone’s time seeking what you aren’t going to find.

Rajesh:

I think you’re putting too much emphasis on a word, when the larger context of a passage answers your question. You wrote:

My examination so far of the uses of this verb in the LXX and what various Greek lexicons and what exegetical commentators say shows a wide range of uses of this verb, including passages where playing musical instruments, singing, and dancing are in view.

I believe the “playing” is the fruit of a poisonous tree, which is pagan worship. We don’t know what this playing was. We can’t tell anyone what it was. We can’t do anything with it. We do know it took place in the context of pagan worship, and that’s the issue. It’s why Moses was angry. It’s why God was angry. I believe you’re focusing on a side issue because you have an agenda. If this passage were about the dancing and the music, then God would have given us some specifics. This passage isn’t about music at all; it’s about the pagan worship.

For example, would you argue that music is forbidden in worship because of this passage from Daniel 3:

“You are commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, that when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music, you are to fall down and worship the golden image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up.

I doubt it. And, to draw another parallel, Daniel 3 is not about music. It’s about faithful Israelites who won’t forsake worship of Yahweh!

We know 1 Cor 10:7 is referencing idolatry, because Paul told them to not be idolaters; the entire chapter is about idolatry! Their eating and playing was done in service to idolatry; it’s the fruit of a poisonous tree! But, you don’t know what the specifics of the poisonous tree are - because that’s not what Exodus 32 is about. If you do know the specifics, then provide them!

[Jay] The mods should close this thread. There is no point in entertaining this.

Moderator comment: I’m not going to close this thread. It’s going nowhere and as soon as everyone wakes up to this it will die on it’s own.

Meanwhile:

This is tiresome. Goodbye.

[RajeshG]

Was their “playing” on this idolatrous occasion moral, immoral, or neutral?

Was their dancing moral, immoral, or neutral?

Was/were the style/styles with which they played any musical instruments (at least timbrels) moral, immoral, or neutral?

Was how they sang what they sang moral, immoral, or neutral?

Were the lyrics that they sang moral, immoral, or neutral?

The problem you have here is that the answers to most of them are “we don’t know.” You can probably make a pretty good case about the “playing” being immoral, but on the other questions, the morality involved could be determined solely by the object of worship, so we don’t really know whether those things were a problem in themselves, or because they were being done to the golden calf.

I would argue that I could sing/play “O God Our Help in Ages Past” in a style that would not be seen as evil, and I don’t think anyone here believes that the lyrics are evil. However, if I were to sing that song to an image of Baal, then all of those actions are wrong — but that would hardly taint the singing, instruments, style, or lyrics for use to the one true God. That leaves us not knowing much about how the people danced or sang, or what lyrics or style they used in Exodus 32. Clearly, the central problem there was idolatry, and anything done in “worship” or veneration of that idol is wrong no matter how good or bad it is in other circumstances.

I think that leaves you with the burden of showing how the scriptures identify the lyrics, style, and instrumentation of the music or dancing as being problematic of themselves. But even if we were to accept your premise that all of the above were immoral of themselves, that still leaves us with having to figure out in what way that’s true. That requires some criteria that any discerning Christian could use to make that determination.

“I don’t know” is a difficult thing for some of us to say.

Does the passage say anything about music? Of course it does (vv. 17-18). So it would be impossible to preach or teach this passage without at least considering that. To avoid music altogether would require the skipping of some things in this passage.

Some (mainly Tyler I think) tried to make this passage out to be about polytheism, but the passage seems to mitigate against that. It was intended to be worship of YHWH (vv. 4, 5, 9) and the violation was not of the first command (no other gods) but of the second commandment (making an image; v. 8). The passage seems to indicate that Israel and Aaron was trying to worship YHWH but they were doing in the wrong way because of dissatisfaction with God’s plan for the moment. It also seems to indicate that Aaron was wrong in giving in to the masses who were demanding a particular thing in worship rather than exercising spiritual leadership about the right way to worship God.

I wonder why no one is discussing vv. 17-18 where there is a sound of war, a sound of victory, a sound of defeat, and a sound of singing. Clearly these are at least three (and maybe four)) different and recognizable sounds that can be distinguished, and it has nothing to do with the words. What does this mean and why is this so? How could Moses tell the difference and what implications are there for us? What other sounds are there and why are these sounds associated with certain things? Why is it that this particular music worked with dancing and yet could be confused with the sound of war? Why did this music fit so well in an occasion of false worship? Would other music have fit better? These are not insignificant questions, it seems to me. They are part of the text and you can’t preach this text without dealing with this. To punt on them, as if the text says nothing about music, is to skip part of the text.

So perhaps it would move this discussion along if we interacted some on these questions above and perhaps other questions that grow out of it.

How would we begin to answer these questions?

We should just let the older men do all the leading … Why are we fooling around with younger leaders who may not be as godly?

It’s not for nothing that the NT declares that spiritual leaders are to be elders. Perhaps that should inform us more than sometimes we are willing for it to. The fascination with youth, energy, and innovation might not be all it’s cracked up to be.

That’s not to say that old guys have all the answers. They can be as much as crackpots as the young guys. But people who have been around the block a few times might know what the other side looks like in a way that others do not.

The questions should be answered, but to discount the old guys because some didn’t answer or some gave answers that weren’t popular isn’t necessarily a feather in one’s cap. It may speak to an arrogance of heart that refuses to hear. It may speak to a lack of historical knowledge and perspective that comes with the hoary heads. It may not, but again, the biblical emphasis on elders and the wisdom of age must not be discounted.

Ron, I know you talk of asking these questions many times over the years and not getting answers. I am a bit younger than you but I never had the experience of not getting answers. I don’t agree with all those answers, but they were given. I think sometimes people tend to confuse “answers” with “answers I like.” Not always, but it’s worth thinking about. They may even confuse “answers” with “answers I understand,” as if our understanding is the measure of right and wrong. An answer could be given and could be correct even if we don’t understand it. Our understanding does not mean the answer is wrong.

There is no doubt that there was a good deal of “Take my word for it” among some, but that was not always the case. And many people rejected answers because of their youthful arrogance.

But if the NT declares that spiritual leadership is supposed to be “elders” then we should be very cautious before we reject that.

Larry said:

Ron, I know you talk of asking these questions many times over the years and not getting answers. I am a bit younger than you but I never had the experience of not getting answers. I don’t agree with all those answers, but they were given.

I’ll give you an example. Tyler presented some simple questions:

In light of your understanding of Exodus 32, pretend you’re preaching a sermon and tell us, in concrete detail without abstractions:

What the singing was

Why it was sinful

What we should do to avoid making the same mistake

What holy and acceptable music is and what it looks like

Pretend a 15 year old girl at your church is taking notes, and wants to make this a reality in her life. She’s looking up at the pulpit, notebook at the ready, pen in hand, waiting. What will you say?

So far….no answers.

I could rehearse similar situations over the years. I was a kid in na good church who asked questions like:

What’s sinful about

—Disney movies

—Roller skating

—Square Dancing

—TV

—Bell-bottom pants

—Big Band Music

—Dancing’

—all popular music

—and any “new” Christian music.

The most common answer was that it was “worldly” to which my inquiring mind asked “What does worldly mean?”

It’s no wonder a whole generation came to the conclusion that the Bible doesn’t say anything about these things.

[Ron Bean]

What’s sinful about

—Disney movies

—Roller skating

—Square Dancing

—TV

—Bell-bottom pants

—Big Band Music

—Dancing’

—all popular music

—and any “new” Christian music.

—Wire-rimmed glasses (because John Lennon wore them…???)

—Open-toed shoes on women (because toes were at one time apparently sinful…???)

—Dunkin’ Donuts (I have absolutely no clue to this day…)

Then there was the church that wouldn’t sing “How Great Thou Art” because of its association with BG.

I’m also wondering about the evil hymns the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings in their worship of a false Christ and false God.

Until this thread began, I always thought Exodus 32 chronicled the Israelite’s tragic idolatry at Sinai, and their defection from Yahweh’s claims to exclusive worship. Now, I know better. I now know what Exodus 32 is really about …

[RajeshG]

dcbii wrote:

I would argue that I could sing/play “O God Our Help in Ages Past” in a style that would not be seen as evil, and I don’t think anyone here believes that the lyrics are evil. However, if I were to sing that song to an image of Baal, then all of those actions are wrong — but that would hardly taint the singing, instruments, style, or lyrics for use to the one true God. That leaves us not knowing much about how the people danced or sang, or what lyrics or style they used in Exodus 32. Clearly, the central problem there was idolatry, and anything done in “worship” or veneration of that idol is wrong no matter how good or bad it is in other circumstances.

On the reading that this was an occasion of polytheistic worship of pagan deities, as several people have said that they believe it was, wouldn’t that automatically make the lyrics sinful because they were being sung not just to false gods as the object of the worship but also about false gods as the subject of their worship? In other words, when we worship God in song, we do not just sing to Him as the object; He is also the subject of what we sing in our worship. In the same way, their lyrics would have been sung both about and to their false gods.

I think that’s pretty much what I expressed — If I sing a song written to God (say, “How Great Thou Art”) to an idol, then yes, in that context, I believe those lyrics would be sinful. It doesn’t make them sinful of themselves, but only because of the context. Over time, greater orthodox Christianity has judged these lyrics to be good when sung to the one true God. My misuse of the song, tune, lyrics, etc. does not judge any of those things on their own merit, but because of how they are used. This is why “How Great Thou Art” was judged improper by some in the example above — negative associations.

Since an otherwise good song can be misused, that’s precisely why I’m not sure any of those elements were wrong of themselves (I agree they could have been, though that’s not really required by what the text says), but used in the golden calf worship, they were, and probably contributed to Moses’ anger.

Even the “sound of war” doesn’t necessarily judge the music, because we know that war, when God commanded it, was not an evil thing. So hearing “the sounds of war” might be unexpected, but is not necessarily a judgment on the inherent value of the music.