How does God want Christians to profit concerning worship from Exodus 32:17-20?

[Ron Bean]

I realize that Rajesh has a degree. I was hoping he’d put it to use.

I am putting it to use. So far, the interpretation that Exodus 32 is an account of the worship of a pagan deity has been shown to be untenable.

[Jay]

I stand my ground that Exodus 32 is about idolatry and has nothing (or very little) to do with music styles and/or dance. I completely reject the idea that that passage has anything to do with 21st Century worship practices for the Christian Church.

1 Corinthians 10:7, which quotes Exodus 32:6, teaches us that God does not give Christians the option of completely rejecting “the idea that the passage has anything to do with 21st Century worship practices for the Christian Church.”
Exodus 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
This apostolic statement that was directed to a NT church in a NT epistle commands believers not to be idolaters, as the people were in Exodus 32. What’s crucial to note is that Paul did not say under divine inspiration, “You must not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, They made a calf and bowed down to it.”
Instead, the Spirit directs our attention to two things that they did after they had made the calf. He specifies that we must not be idolaters in two ways, as they were: (1) Eating and drinking in a worship context what has been offered to an idol in a worship context; and (2) Playing as they did in a worship context after they had consumed those sacrifices in a worship context.
A NT believer who wants to please God in all areas of His life absolutely must square up with what the Spirit is saying must not be done in playing, as they did in the context of their false worship of Yahweh.
What did they do when they played that we are commanded by God not to do?

[Jay]

I’m not going to do this, Rajesh, because I have too many other pressing issues that need my attention. You have your opinion, and I disagree. Have a good night.

That’s fine with me. I began this thread with a desire to interact with interested believers who are seriously interested in knowing what God communicates to us in Exodus 32 concerning their worship and its relevance to us. That is a vital question.

[TylerR]

Tell us, in explicit terms, what holy music is and what it looks like.

Please go start your own thread about what interests you. You are not commending your testimony to me (and probably many others) as a Christian pastor and blogger by making repeated provocative remarks (prior to this one) that are not what this thread is about. If you are not interested in an in-depth discussion and analysis of a specific Bible passage that is a very important Bible passage about worship, please do not hinder those of us who are.

[GregH]

For some reason, Rajesh is hung up on music. I have no idea why. He is not a musician. But he is. And his agenda against music does impact his thinking and perspective to the point where he just does not make much sense. I have no doubt that he is much smarter when he is not talking about music and a better theologian when he is not talking about music.

“For some reason, Rajesh is hung up on music. I have no idea why.”
There are more than 3000 verses in the Bible that pertain to the subject of music. God says that people who immerse themselves in His Word day and night will be blessed people.
“And his agenda against music does impact his thinking and perspective to the point where he just does not make much sense. I have no doubt that he is much smarter when he is not talking about music and a better theologian when he is not talking about music. “
There are many people who would disagree with your assessments that I have an agenda against music and am not able to make much sense when I speak on the subject.

[TylerR]

My question was honest. I asked you a similar one in the related thread. My comments you mentioned were meant to be humorous and lighthearted.

I believe you should consider what others are saying here. You seem to be very imbalanced on this subject. I don’t know if you are, because an online profile doesn’t always represent the whole picture of a man. So, please consider what people are saying.

Take care.

Thanks for these remarks. I have considered very carefully what people are saying here and disagree with what they are saying. I am committed to intensely exegetical study of everything that God has said. This thread was intended for detailed discussion and analysis of a key passage and parallel passages for the goal of understanding more accurately what God intends for us to know.
Your question cannot be answered without such thorough attention to all that God has said. Any believer who is not willing to immerse themselves in what God has said will end up doing what is right in his own eyes.
I invite you to engage exegetically in the specific topic of this thread. Even if we never agree on ultimate applications, time spent in detailed study of God’s own words will not be wasted time.

[Ken S]

Rajesh, I think most who have commented in this thread do not accept the premise…that Exodus 32 has anything to do with proper worship music. Because of that it will be very difficult to engage on the topic.

Even if I grant that your premise is true and this passage has to do with proper worship music, it still doesn’t allow me to engage very much because:

• We would have to assume that they had two (or more) styles of music, one being holy and the other unholy, and that they stopped using the right style and started using the wrong style. But there’s no reason for us to assume that they changed music styles. Rather they changed the object of their worship.
• We don’t know what the improper music sounded like (the actual music, not referring to the sound of war…I’ve also heard that at children’s birthday parties).
• We don’t know what the proper music would have sounded like.
• We don’t know what would have been the specific elements of the music that were unholy.

In short, there’s nothing for us to engage on musically in this passage. It doesn’t help me in any way determine what holy music would be versus unholy. I do see that the passage speaks to worship, but not to worship music, and therefore there’s not much to engage on if you are looking for a discussion on music.

Actually, divine inspiration of the passage guarantees that what it reveals about their worship music on this occasion has profitability for our understanding about worship music ( 2 Tim. 3:15-17).

[Joel Shaffer]

Actually, divine inspiration of the passage guarantees that what it reveals about their worship music on this occasion has profitability for our understanding about worship music ( 2 Tim. 3:15-17).

RajeshG,

You didn’t address any/each of Ken’s bullet points on proper worship music and so you come across as if you are avoiding answering him.

I work all day M-F and only have brief periods during the day for quick responses. I will get to his other points later.

[TylerR]

Behold …

When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him,” (Exodus 32:1).

The Israelites explicitly decided to worship pagan gods when they suspected Moses was not coming back. They sought replacements (plural) for Yahweh as soon as they believed Moses was delayed. This tells us the issue in Exodus 32 was idolatry.

So Aaron said to them, “Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!” (Exodus 32:2-4).

Aaron responded by requisitioning material to make a idol for them to worship. He made tools and used them to fashion this idol. The Israelites responded by proclaiming these idols to be the gods that rescued them from the Egyptians. The issue is pagan idolatry and betrayal of Yahweh.

When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.” And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play (Exodus 32:5-6).

What did Aaron build an altar before? The calf. The feast was in honor of Yahweh, as if He would be pleased! They brought offerings, likely to the calf, because the alter was before it. They may have been to Yahweh, which would only make their transgression worse.

What about the “eating” and “playing?” It’s done in the context of a feast to Yahweh, which has clear polytheistic elements. The “playing,” whatever it may be, is not moral behavior. The context in which it occurs is the key – polytheistic worship.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’” (Exodus 32:7-8).

How have they corrupted themselves? Likely by holding to a polytheism by crediting false “gods” with their rescue from Egypt, while claiming their subsequent feast was in honor of Yahweh. It is clear they viewed Him as one god among many; perhaps even the highest god. Still, this is a clear betrayal. This is why they have “turned aside.”

And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you,” (Exodus 32:9-10).

Yahweh is angry Understandable …

But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’” And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people (Exodus 32:11-4).

Moses clearly understands and accepts the monotheistic ethos Yahweh demands. He appeals to God’s covenant promises as the basis for not destroying the Israelities.

Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written. The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets. When Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a noise of war in the camp.” But he said, “It is not the sound of shouting for victory, or the sound of the cry of defeat, but the sound of singing that I hear,” (Exodus 32:15-18).

Whence cometh this singing? It comes in the context of this feast to Yahweh, which Aaron proclaimed after fashioning a pagan idol and proclaiming “gods” had rescued them rom Egypt, and after making an alter for this idol. The feast includes alleged worship of Yahweh, but it takes place in a polytheistic context. Add to it, the “playing” seems to be immoral behavior of some sort (not specified). This is immoral revelry in the context of polytheistic worship.

And as soon as he came near the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, Moses’ anger burned hot, and he threw the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. He took the calf that they had made and burned it with fire and ground it to powder and scattered it on the water and made the people of Israel drink it (Exodus 32:19-20).

Why did Moses become angry? Because of the calf and the dancing.

What was the object of this dancing and revelry? The text suggests it was the calf, however much Aaron tried to proclaim the feast was for Yahweh. We know this because Moses immediately destroyed the calf.

And Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you that you have brought such a great sin upon them?” And Aaron said, “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot. You know the people, that they are set on evil. For they said to me, ‘Make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’ So I said to them, ‘Let any who have gold take it off.’ So they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf,” (Exodus 32:21-24).

Aron’s excuses are pathetic and clearly ridiculous. He is deflecting.

And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies), then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, “Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me.” And all the sons of Levi gathered around him (Exodus 32:25-26).

How had the people “broken loose” or gotten “out of control?” Likely by abandoning Yahweh and embracing polytheism wholeheartedly.

And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.’” And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And that day about three thousand men of the people fell. And Moses said, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, so that he might bestow a blessing upon you this day,” (Exodus 32:27-29).

Self-explanatory.

The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin,” (Exodus 32:30).

What was this great sin that requires atonement? Is it singing? Is it dancing? That is too myopic; it is the pagan, polytheistic idolatry.

So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold (Exodus 32:31).

As I said; the sin is the polytheism. This is the issue throughout the chapter/ The singing and dancing (whose form are not discussed) are fruits of this poisonous tree. The issue is the idolatry.

But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them,” (Exodus 32:32-34).

Sin has consequences. What is this sin? Is it dancing? Is it singing? No, it’s something else entirely …

Then the Lord sent a plague on the people, because they made the calf, the one that Aaron made (Exodus 32:35).

The sin is the calf. The sin is the polytheistic, pagan worship.

Rejesh asks:

How does God want Christians to profit concerning their understanding of proper worship, especially of proper worship music, from the mention of singing and dancing in the following key passage about idolatrous worship:

Exodus 32 is not about pagan worship music. We know this because the passage itself tells us the sin was the worship of the calf. The text tells us nothing about this music, so we don’t know what the problem is. We do know the singing occurred in the context of the pagan, polytheistic worship of the calf. Beyond that, we can draw no implications at all. So, with no malice intended, this is my analysis of your position (as I mentioned, above):

Finally, something more substantive to interact with. I’ll get back to you about it. As for what you claim at the end, we’ll see …

[Ken S]

Rajesh, I think most who have commented in this thread do not accept the premise…that Exodus 32 has anything to do with proper worship music. Because of that it will be very difficult to engage on the topic.

Even if I grant that your premise is true and this passage has to do with proper worship music, it still doesn’t allow me to engage very much because:

• We would have to assume that they had two (or more) styles of music, one being holy and the other unholy, and that they stopped using the right style and started using the wrong style. But there’s no reason for us to assume that they changed music styles. Rather they changed the object of their worship.
• We don’t know what the improper music sounded like (the actual music, not referring to the sound of war…I’ve also heard that at children’s birthday parties).
• We don’t know what the proper music would have sounded like.
• We don’t know what would have been the specific elements of the music that were unholy.

You seem to assume that the Israelites who came out of Egypt were a homogeneous group of like-minded people. Scripture says that a mixed multitude (Exod. 12:38) accompanied them in the Exodus and some from that rabble caused serious problems on at least one later occasion (Num. 11:4). I find no basis for holding that the rabble from Egypt did not have ungodly singing and dancing styles, unless one assumes (in spite of their being no Bible basis for such assumptions) that there are no such things as ungodly singing and dancing styles.
Furthermore, Exodus 32 shows that it was not all the Israelites who engaged in this ungodly worship. All of the sons of Levi remained true to God in the midst of this terrible event (32:27-28). The NT states that only some of the people were idolatrous on this occasion (1 Cor. 10:7). I find no basis for holding that the singing and dancing styles that were used by these people who were wildly out-of-control (32:25) in this heinous event were the same as the godly styles that the godly Israelites had been using in their worship of Yahweh (Ex. 15).
You are right that we do not know much about what the sound of their singing sounded like from a distance. We do know, however, that these people were wicked people who were wildly partying in such a shameful way that their enemies were ashamed of them (32:25). If you think that these people who were so ungodly in some many overt ways must still be understood somehow to have been singing and dancing in godly ways, do you have any evidence to support your view?

[TylerR]

Behold …

When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him,” (Exodus 32:1).

The Israelites explicitly decided to worship pagan gods when they suspected Moses was not coming back. They sought replacements (plural) for Yahweh as soon as they believed Moses was delayed. This tells us the issue in Exodus 32 was idolatry.

So Aaron said to them, “Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!” (Exodus 32:2-4).

Aaron responded by requisitioning material to make a idol for them to worship. He made tools and used them to fashion this idol. The Israelites responded by proclaiming these idols to be the gods that rescued them from the Egyptians. The issue is pagan idolatry and betrayal of Yahweh.

When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.” And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play (Exodus 32:5-6).

What did Aaron build an altar before? The calf. The feast was in honor of Yahweh, as if He would be pleased! They brought offerings, likely to the calf, because the alter was before it. They may have been to Yahweh, which would only make their transgression worse.

What about the “eating” and “playing?” It’s done in the context of a feast to Yahweh, which has clear polytheistic elements. The “playing,” whatever it may be, is not moral behavior. The context in which it occurs is the key – polytheistic worship.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’” (Exodus 32:7-8).

How have they corrupted themselves? Likely by holding to a polytheism by crediting false “gods” with their rescue from Egypt, while claiming their subsequent feast was in honor of Yahweh. It is clear they viewed Him as one god among many; perhaps even the highest god. Still, this is a clear betrayal. This is why they have “turned aside.”

And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you,” (Exodus 32:9-10).

Yahweh is angry Understandable …

But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’” And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people (Exodus 32:11-4).

Moses clearly understands and accepts the monotheistic ethos Yahweh demands. He appeals to God’s covenant promises as the basis for not destroying the Israelities.

Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written. The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets. When Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a noise of war in the camp.” But he said, “It is not the sound of shouting for victory, or the sound of the cry of defeat, but the sound of singing that I hear,” (Exodus 32:15-18).

Whence cometh this singing? It comes in the context of this feast to Yahweh, which Aaron proclaimed after fashioning a pagan idol and proclaiming “gods” had rescued them rom Egypt, and after making an alter for this idol. The feast includes alleged worship of Yahweh, but it takes place in a polytheistic context. Add to it, the “playing” seems to be immoral behavior of some sort (not specified). This is immoral revelry in the context of polytheistic worship.

And as soon as he came near the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, Moses’ anger burned hot, and he threw the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. He took the calf that they had made and burned it with fire and ground it to powder and scattered it on the water and made the people of Israel drink it (Exodus 32:19-20).

Why did Moses become angry? Because of the calf and the dancing.

What was the object of this dancing and revelry? The text suggests it was the calf, however much Aaron tried to proclaim the feast was for Yahweh. We know this because Moses immediately destroyed the calf.

And Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you that you have brought such a great sin upon them?” And Aaron said, “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot. You know the people, that they are set on evil. For they said to me, ‘Make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’ So I said to them, ‘Let any who have gold take it off.’ So they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf,” (Exodus 32:21-24).

Aron’s excuses are pathetic and clearly ridiculous. He is deflecting.

And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies), then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, “Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me.” And all the sons of Levi gathered around him (Exodus 32:25-26).

How had the people “broken loose” or gotten “out of control?” Likely by abandoning Yahweh and embracing polytheism wholeheartedly.

And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.’” And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And that day about three thousand men of the people fell. And Moses said, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, so that he might bestow a blessing upon you this day,” (Exodus 32:27-29).

Self-explanatory.

The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin,” (Exodus 32:30).

What was this great sin that requires atonement? Is it singing? Is it dancing? That is too myopic; it is the pagan, polytheistic idolatry.

So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold (Exodus 32:31).

As I said; the sin is the polytheism. This is the issue throughout the chapter/ The singing and dancing (whose form are not discussed) are fruits of this poisonous tree. The issue is the idolatry.

But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them,” (Exodus 32:32-34).

Sin has consequences. What is this sin? Is it dancing? Is it singing? No, it’s something else entirely …

Then the Lord sent a plague on the people, because they made the calf, the one that Aaron made (Exodus 32:35).

The sin is the calf. The sin is the polytheistic, pagan worship.

Rejesh asks:

How does God want Christians to profit concerning their understanding of proper worship, especially of proper worship music, from the mention of singing and dancing in the following key passage about idolatrous worship:

Exodus 32 is not about pagan worship music. We know this because the passage itself tells us the sin was the worship of the calf. The text tells us nothing about this music, so we don’t know what the problem is. We do know the singing occurred in the context of the pagan, polytheistic worship of the calf. Beyond that, we can draw no implications at all.

Your entire analysis hinges on the validity of your holding that what took place was polytheistic worship. For proof, you cite the plural “gods” in Exod. 32:1 and 4.
There are several problems with your analysis.
1. The Hebrew word Elohim that is in Exod. 32:1 and 4, although plural in form, is used in numerous places in the Bible for the one and only true God, beginning in Genesis 1:1.
2. At least two versions, the CSB and the NAU have the singular “god” in Exod. 32:1 and 4.
3. All the major versions that I checked render the same Hebrew word that is in Exod. 32:1 and 4 as the singular “God” (NIV has “god”) in a key parallel passage that speaks explicitly about the Golden Calf incident:
Nehemiah 9:18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;
Note that this statement directly quotes what they said on that occasion and says that they said that it was their God who brought them up from Egypt.
4. Please explain how a single calf is supposed to be a representation of multiple gods.
I do not see any convincing evidence to hold that this was clearly an occasion of polytheistic worship. (Their may be evidence that provides some support for your view elsewhere in Scripture, but you have not yet referred to it.)
As for what their sin was on this occasion, note again what Neh. 9:18 says that they did:
Nehemiah 9:18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;
This passage makes clear that their sinfulness was not just the making of the calf. They also “wrought great provocations” [rendered “committed great blasphemies” in the NAU]. What were these great provocations (pl.) that were extremely sinful that they did in addition to making the calf?
Moreover, in 1 Cor. 10:7, Paul does not even talk about the making of the calf when he commands Christians not to be idolaters:
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
This NT apostolic statement highlights the sinfulness of their eating and drinking in a worship context what had been offered to an idol in a worship context and it highlights the sinfulness of their “playing” on that occasion.
I do not agree with your statement, “The sin is the calf. The sin is the polytheistic, pagan worship.” Their sin on this occasion was much more than just making the calf, and saying that their sin was “the polytheistic, pagan worship” is something you are going to have to do much more to prove than what you have done so far.

[Kevin Miller]

RajeshG wrote:

Moreover, in 1 Cor. 10:7, Paul does not even talk about the making of the calf when he commands Christians not to be idolaters:

1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

This NT apostolic statement highlights the sinfulness of their eating and drinking in a worship context what had been offered to an idol in a worship context and it highlights the sinfulness of their “playing” on that occasion.

In I Cor 10:7, wouldn’t the word “idolater” be referencing the making of the calf? Would the people even be guilty of the sin of idolatry of they hadn’t made the calf? Eating by itself is not sinful, but when your eating is done in worship of a calf, then it is idolatry. Even if you say you are worshipping the true God, if you have made an idol to represent Him, then you are practicing idolatry. Drinking by itself is not sinful, but if done in worship to an idol, then you would be committing the sin of idolatry.

If you want to make a case against sinful worship practices in the GCI, then you HAVE TO reference idolatry, or you are not talking about the sinful worship practice of the GCI.

Of course, the sinfulness of what took place was in the context of idolatry, and I did refer to it: “This NT apostolic statement highlights the sinfulness of their eating and drinking in a worship context what had been offered to an idol in a worship context and it highlights the sinfulness of their “playing” on that occasion.”
My point is that Paul does not highlight or limit his command for us not to be idolatrous by talking primarily about or only about the making of an idol and directly worshiping it by offering sacrifices to it; the Spirit directed him to highlight the other aspects of their idolatry on that occasion—the eating in a worship context of what had been offered to an idol and the subsequent playing after they had eaten in a worship context what had been offered to an idol.
This NT command, therefore, underscores for us that we must not do whatever they did in their “playing” on that idolatrous occasion.

[TylerR]

In light of your understanding of Exodus 32, pretend you’re preaching a sermon and tell us, in concrete detail without abstractions:

• What the singing was
• Why it was sinful
• What we should do to avoid making the same mistake
• What holy and acceptable music is and what it looks like

Pretend a 15 year old girl at your church is taking notes, and wants to make this a reality in her life. She’s looking up at the pulpit, notebook at the ready, pen in hand, waiting. What will you say?

I wouldn’t preach a sermon on these verses from Exodus 32 without having preached quite a number of previous messages laying the right biblical foundation for preaching on these verses. In addition, some of the things that you list in your bullet points cannot be answered in the manner that you desire. Finally, I am still in the process of studying this and many other related passages and still have much to learn and do not have all the answers to the questions that you would like answered in the manner that you want them answered.

[Jay]

I’m probably going to regret this, but…

My point is that Paul does not highlight or limit his command for us not to be idolatrous by talking primarily about or only about the making of an idol and directly worshiping it by offering sacrifices to it; the Spirit directed him to highlight the other aspects of their idolatry on that occasion—the eating in a worship context of what had been offered to an idol and the subsequent playing after they had eaten in a worship context what had been offered to an idol.

Because God is clearly more concerned about the worship practices around the idol than the fact that his people are worshiping idols to begin with.

God is concerned with everything that His people do that does not please Him, including both their overtly worshiping idols and their worship practices in doing so.

[GregH]

RajeshG wrote:

Finally, I am still in the process of studying this and many other related passages and still have much to learn and do not have all the answers to the questions that you would like answered in the manner that you want them answered.

Well, let’s start with something that is easy then. Here is what you said recently:

RajeshG wrote:

In the wisdom of God, He does not define things that do not need definition. People with life experience have innate ability to discern what is and is not sensual concerning how something is being spoken or sung.

How about telling us the concrete rules using musical terminology for what makes a song sensual or not? After all, according to you, anyone with life experience knows that so this should be an easy one for you.

If “concrete rules using musical terminology” was the necessary way to discern whether a song that would be used in worship is sensual or not, God in His perfect wisdom would have given us that information through divine inspiration in His Word.

[GregH]

LOL, I knew you would refuse to answer and you won’t answer this attempt either. Tell us in simple language exactly what elements make a piece of music sensual. Come on, you claim it is easy, so obvious that anyone with life experience knows it and so obvious that God did not even have to define it.

I already know you will be coy again because you can’t answer the question.

This is what you claimed in your initial comment on this thread: “I have no real dog in the fight in this debate. It is a waste of time and everyone knows that it will go no where and frankly, I just don’t care any more about this debate.”
Yet you keep commenting and trying to divert the thread and make into a discussion about what you want to talk about. Since you do not have a dog in this fight and don’t care about this debate, why not just stop commenting and ignore the thread completely?

[TylerR]

Rajesh:

First, on a lighthearted note, I thought about writing a more detailed response to your most recent remarks, but this picture sums it up:

On a serious note, I’m disappointed you cannot go into specifics, on this thread or any other you’ve interacted about regarding music. I’m not surprised, but I am disappointed. I’d honestly like to know specifics, Rejesh. Tell me how you categorize music, in an objective fashion. Just tell me. Please. Answer GregH!

I have written extensively on my blog what I believe about music and how I approach music. You can go read what I have written and interact with me there, if you wish. (Unfortunately, my blog is currently down, and I’m told that it should be back up by tomorrow).

[TylerR]

Tell me, then, what is your point about Exodus 32? Can you really not draw any practical conclusions for corporate worship? Is something like, “God thinks music is important” all you have? We’d agree with that. Do you have something more? What do you want from people on this thread, if you won’t get down to brass tacks about practical application in light of your interpretation?

My point is what I said at the very beginning: God wants us to profit from this revelation in Exodus 32:17-19. I am not satisfied that I understand yet exactly what all that is, but I know that it is a key passage.
I have learned much from the interaction that has already taken place on this thread. It has helped me to know better what other people think and how they approach this passage.
Even though God does not tell us much about what the sound of their singing was, what He did tell us is supposed to instruct us. I want to know fully what He wants us to know.
I have no doubt that their both their singing and their dancing was not pleasing to God. What application(s) that has to our understanding of worship music is something that I am going to keep exploring prayerfully.

[TylerR]

Tell me, then, what is your point about Exodus 32? Can you really not draw any practical conclusions for corporate worship? Is something like, “God thinks music is important” all you have? We’d agree with that. Do you have something more? What do you want from people on this thread, if you won’t get down to brass tacks about practical application in light of your interpretation?

One specific application that I see from the passage is that it attests to the differing levels of musical discernment between two very godly men, Moses and Joshua, and the need to value the greater discernment that older, more experienced leaders have. Churches should not give younger men such as youth pastors and other youth workers the freedom to do what they want to do musically in youth ministries when godly senior leaders have qualms about what the younger men want to do musically but are not able to quite put a finger on why they have those qualms about what the younger men want to do.
Senior leaders must be vigilant to be fully informed about what those under them are doing musically and make sure that they instruct them about what they are to do musically.