Steve Pettit and the Skillman family

It wasn’t just “associated with” idolatry, it was the offering. If you read Homer, you’ll see innumerable examples of the ancient Greek heroes offering the “thighbone of a hog” to Zeus. Huge difference there. Nobody was objecting to meat because it was similar to meat that had been part of pagan worship; the historic testimony was that it had actually been offered.

So the reason we have conservative standards in our church isn’t “because the pastor says so” but because it is right to have conservative standards.

True, but that brings up more questions:

• Who sets the pastor’s standards?
• Is it OK if my standards don’t align with the pastor’s standards, or does that become a sin issue?
• What does a person do when they change churches and the ‘new’ pastor’s standards are different from what they are used to be, either because they are ‘stronger’ or ‘weaker’?
• Or what do they do if a newly hired pastor says that bluegrass is OK when the old pastor did not?

Our church is in the middle of a pastoral transition, so these are all real issues I’m thinking about now.

If the Man of God, in the House of God, hears the Voice of God, telling him what to say about the Word of God, then all we can do is submit to the Man of God. Haymen!!?

Given that David wrote a lot of the Psalms despite being neither prophet nor priest, and given that a fair number of Psalms are unattributed, and given that 1 Corinthians 14 notes that early church services had a lot of people bringing their own songs into the congregation, is the Scripture really consistent with the notion of the pastor setting the musical tone for the entire congregation? We might wonder whether music in Bible times was effectively “crowd-sourced.”

I can see some basic limits on music-the message ought not be heretical or obscene, preference will be given to lyrics whose poetry effectively uses poetic devices, the tunes used ought to be fitting to the topic and winsome—but perhaps we might find that the degree of control a pastor ought to exert might be far less than is typical in today’s fundamental (and evangelical) churches.

I don’t know if I’ve organized my thoughts enough to defend what I’m about to write. However, I’m going to write it because I’m curious to hear more thoughts about this issue.

I don’t believe that all music (or art, in general) is a Romans 14 issue. For example, and to use an extreme example, does Motley Crue’s “Girls, Girls, Girls” fall under Christian liberty? (If you’re unfamiliar with the song, don’t look it up on YouTube because, if I remember correctly, the video is set in a strip club.) Does a work of art that so blatantly objectifies women and mocks God’s sexual ethic fall under Christian liberty?

I think the disconnect in this thread may be that some are simply referring to style of music (genre) when they say they leave it up to an individual’s conscience. While others view style (genre) and lyrical content (“Girls, Girls, Girls”) as inseparable. Growing up, I was told that even if the lyrics weren’t bad the style of music was sinful. If someone believes that, then they’re not going to be able to agree to disagree that style (genre) is a subjective matter. Nor, frankly, should they if that’s what they believe in full faith before God. I can disagree with someone over whether the style itself is sinful and still recognize that they’re speaking in good faith and trying to pursue holiness in ways that bring God glory.

My question wasn’t meant to be a “crazed hypothetical.” It was meant to ask this, but let me start with some context. I spent 12+ years as a charismatic. I am embarrassed that I was deceived by that. I regret every nanosecond of it. Spending that much time in that errant theology ruined my life. Yes… RUINED. You don’t get 12 years back, especially at that time. Now, all the time I spent leading worship, yes singing Hillsong music and others, counts for nothing. In fact it is worse than nothing. Now, at 45, there is simply no way to get back on track. Its lost. I’ll never be able to do things in ministry that I could have done had I not wasted 12 years being a charismatic. As a result I despise anything charismatic. Especially the stuff that causes people to think it is good.

So, imagine my horror at the relative ease with which evangelicals, and especially Baptists, even “fundamental” Baptists such as yourself lap up material produced by charismatics. The CCM industry is overrun with charismatics.

So what you say. We worship with it, have our doctrine, and all is good.

That leads to my question. You have compartmentalized the music. You have your theology and doctrine, and add Hillsong, for example, as a little cherry on top. The problem is, the youth around you might not, and likely will not, do that. They will google Hillsong, and listen to that music. Then they will click the links on the side to other charismatic music. Then they’ll see “Bill Johnson” or someone else, and listen. Some, will be deceived…

If that doesn’t bother you, so be it. But that scares the h e double hockey sticks out of me.

Mark

For years, all I knew about Rocky Top was its role as the unofficial fight song for the University of Tennessee. I didn’t even know there were lyrics to the song. Now it is no longer neutral to me. Thanks everyone….

I know nothing about Hillsong. I know nothing about the CCM scene. Literally, nothing. I just listened to one album, liked some songs and appreciate the lyrics, and disliked others. You wrote:

So, imagine my horror at the relative ease with which evangelicals, and especially Baptists, even “fundamental” Baptists such as yourself lap up material produced by charismatics. The CCM industry is overrun with charismatics.

The real world is overrun with all sorts of horrors. I can’t separate from that. Nobody can. Shall I keep my children in tupperware containers, lest the popular culture destroy them? Of course not; people have to be taught to eat the meat and spit out the bones, so to speak. They need to be taught discernment. This is true in real life, and it’s true with music. The rub is that many people disagree about what’s worth discerning. Issues of style, genre, and lyrics now come into play. A good deal of this is subjective; no matter how desperately proponents try to make Scriptural cases.

I’ve found this much to be true:

• Everyone has a pet issue, be it ecclesiology, eschatology, soteriology, bible versions, or music, or alcohol - sometimes a combination of these
• People are very willing to overlook heterodox positions on other issues, if a person agrees with them on a “pet issue.” Thus, while separation is often championed as a high ideal, the actual application is often … selective!
• These hobby horses make for some very strange bed-fellows. This is why, for example, associations of KJVO churches generally agree on the KJV, but tolerate insane doctrinal aberrations on a host of other topics.

For some people, music is the issue. My issues are theology proper, christology and soteriology. I’ll work with a Reformed guy who has contemporary music over a fellow Baptist who models his ministry after Hyles. We each make our decisions about separation over what we perceive to the “the issues”. Everything isn’t a fundamental. Everything can’t be.

For me, music isn’t a fundamental; I allow wide latitude within the general umbrella of theologically accurate lyrics, and a holy style and manner of delivery.

[AndyE]

For years, all I knew about Rocky Top was its role as the unofficial fight song for the University of Tennessee. I didn’t even know there were lyrics to the song. Now it is no longer neutral to me. Thanks everyone….

I am not enough of a Vols fan—sorry Andy—to know how it’s presented, but if people are singing a song for years, but don’t know the lyrics, one might guess the message is not getting across. I am thankful (h/t John) that the times I heard “Girls Girls Girls” played, I also did not get the message. And in the same way, if a church is using a song but people are not catching on to the lyrics, then either the song or its presentation is at fault. It’s failing in a primary purpose of Christian music, to impart God’s Word in lyric form to God’s people.

And along the same lines, Mark, I understand your concern, but again, the bigger question is not whether bad influences are going to come in (have you read the papers lately?), but rather whether people in the church are going to be equipped to handle them. Do they understand and appreciate the main points of theology that would allow them to be discerning? And exactly how much would be required to “protect” them here? The Amish have one solution that works….really only, if at all, until Rumspringa. Colossians 2:20-23, no?

You wrote:

For me, music isn’t a fundamental; I allow wide latitude within the general umbrella of theologically accurate lyrics, and a holy style and manner of delivery.

I’m assuming that you agree that pursuing holiness is commanded by Scriptures. If so, does music (or any entertainment choices) fall under the umbrella of pursuing holiness? This next question may be unfair considering the format here, but if entertainment choices do fall under the umbrella of pursuing holiness, would you mind sharing how you discern what crosses the line to where you can’t “allow wide latitude?”

I’m referring to a corporate worship context.

I know, but I’m still curious.

Similar to Bro. Barkman, what we allow in a corporate worship service is what I say we allow. That’s my criteria. We don’t have a group of talented musicians. We typically do a song leader with a piano accompaniment. Occasionally, we have some accompaniment with a violin, saxophone or a trombone. We had a guitar once, too. We have several older ladies who would leave if we ever rolled out drums. I’m theoretically not opposed to drums or guitars, if someone had the talent to use them.