Steve Pettit and the Skillman family
This weekend, at our four contemporary services (we also have two traditional services), this was one of the songs we sang:
“You didn’t want heaven without us”??
Let’s pretend I’m a person at your church: Hey pastor, since we’ve been singing Hillsong music I have really been praising the Lord in a new dimension. I am really growing in my worship. You know, pastor, on youtube listening to all the Hillsong music I discovered a while ago Bethel Music and Jesus Culture. That style really blesses me. I have been practicing that music at home and sharing it with my friends. It helps us. In fact, you know, I am feeling like the Lord might be leading me to get trained in music. I checked this place out and I am sending in my application. It’s called the Bethel Music Worship School and the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. Does that sound good to you?
What would you say?
[Mark_Smith]Let’s pretend I’m a person at your church: Hey pastor, since we’ve been singing Hillsong music I have really been praising the Lord in a new dimension. I am really growing in my worship. You know, pastor, on youtube listening to all the Hillsong music I discovered a while ago Bethel Music and Jesus Culture. That style really blesses me. I have been practicing that music at home and sharing it with my friends. It helps us. In fact, you know, I am feeling like the Lord might be leading me to get trained in music. I checked this place out and I am sending in my application. It’s called the Bethel Music Worship School and the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. Does that sound good to you?
What would you say?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but “Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry” sounds a lot sketchier than “Bethel Music Worship School.”
Seriously, though, while I wouldn’t be able to immediately call a style of music bad of itself using scripture, the Bible does bear on all of culture, including music, and care should be taken before running off into any style of music (or anything for that matter) just because it “blesses me.” Discernment is always necessary.
Dave Barnhart
After listening to all of this really great music by this guy named Wesley, I’ve been reading more about him and have decided that I’m no longer a Baptist but a Methodist and an Arminian. And that “emptied Himself of all but love” has led me to believe in kenosis.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Mark_Smith]Let’s pretend I’m a person at your church: Hey pastor, since we’ve been singing Hillsong music I have really been praising the Lord in a new dimension. I am really growing in my worship. You know, pastor, on youtube listening to all the Hillsong music I discovered a while ago Bethel Music and Jesus Culture. That style really blesses me. I have been practicing that music at home and sharing it with my friends. It helps us. In fact, you know, I am feeling like the Lord might be leading me to get trained in music. I checked this place out and I am sending in my application. It’s called the Bethel Music Worship School and the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. Does that sound good to you?
What would you say?
The first thing to note is that if someone has been learning about theology—knows their fundamentals, knows their Solas, etc..—they are going to start to have a feeling for what is, and is not, appropriate in the lyrics of the music. Is something referring to charismata that we don’t see today? They just might pick up on it. If it’s only vaguely rooted in the Scriptures—like In the Garden—they might pick up on that, too. All too often, it seems that we try to protect people using walls of “do not touch, do not taste” (Colossians 2:20-23) instead of working to develop good theological discernment.
Moreover, when that fails, isn’t the role of a pastor supposed to be to come alongside a congregant who makes a theological error and point out the error of his ways—letting some little things slide, but focusing on that which is truly fundamental? Sometimes these super-tight, guilt by association rules seem to be born more of a desire to avoid the hard work of pastoring than actual needful concerns for the congregation, mere conformity replacing actual spiritual growth.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
“There are details of character small enough to escape the mesh of the law and the broadsides of the prophets, and yet decisive in personal dealings.”
—Derek Kidner, Proverbs commentary in the TOTC series, 13
On wisdom issues. When Jesus said to cut off your right hand if it causes you to offend, He knew full well that, strictly speaking, you can’t blame your right hand for your sin. But He certainly meant you ought to recognize those things likely to cause you to sin, and avoid them. He expected you to understand the Scriptural norms and then make the necessarily situational applications. I don’t know what you call doing that well, except wisdom. Ditto for Paul exhorting us to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and not to make provision for the flesh.
It is not, strictly speaking, a sin to walk into a strip club with pole dancers. It is a sin to lust. Only a fool would walk into a strip club with that excuse, though. Scaling it back a little: it’s not a sin to follow scantily clad women on Twitter or Instagram. But when the church leadership is working with a man who has already strayed from his wife in some ways, and now has social media connections with ladies who are not his wife, should the church leadership strongly urge him to ditch the account? Yeah. It’s a wisdom issue.
On slippery slopes. Oh the luxury of doing logic on paper. I wish the human heart worked that way. The simple fact is that our choices have reflexive consequences on us; what seemed implausible at one point in our lives, after a pattern of decisions, eventually may seem plausible. This can be a good thing as our theology grows and evolves. It can be a bad thing because Satan deceives us gradually.
On Hillsong. Full disclosure: my own musical principles begin on the conservative notion that music is most certainly moral; but my applications are pretty loose because music also communicates indirectly; nor do I consider it a sin to listen to what somewhat else is communicating through music. I’ve grown from classical into liking modern folk, alternative, Christian rap, and a variety of other genres. (But I actually deleted my albums by Birdy. (It’s a wisdom issue!))
Hillsong and Bethel are simply not in the same category as ancient Catholic hymn writers or Wesley. (I am not a Donatist, and I don’t believe that the problems with the minister invalidate the ministry.) Some of Hillsong/Bethel’s songs are worthwhile, and it is no sin to use them, and it may be great to do so in certain contexts. “Fundamentalist” churches may be safer in using them than other churches because of the grounding people there have. But if you are in an inner-city church with a high percentage of non-members who attend once or infrequently, and who are inundated in TBN, prosperity gospel, and every heresy under the sun, then using Hillsong or Bethel may actually be dangerous. Hillsong has scandalized the church and the world with the “dancing naked cowboy” fiasco; and they are noted to allow practicing homosexuals to participate in leading worship. (To be fair: they say they oppose homosexuality. So what we have is not a direct affirmation of homosexuality, but a profound failure of church discipline.) Bethel has its issues with grave-sucking and the worst forms of charismatism.
Can I, a mature Christian, be blessed by the music and lyrics of their better music? Sure. (Although some of Hillsong is monotonously hypnotic, an interminable build…) But I think long and hard about using it in my own context. That whole thing about the millstone around my neck, for offending the little ones, has me concerned. Unfortunately they are not as skilled in logic, and unfortunately they often understand approval through association. If someone in a circumstance similar to mine used Hillsong, I wouldn’t call him sinful. I just pause, though.
Michael Osborne
Philadelphia, PA
“Once two strangers climbed ol’ Rocky Top
Lookin’ for a moonshine still
Strangers ain’t come down from Rocky Top
Reckon they never will
Corn won’t grow at all on Rocky Top
Dirt’s too rocky by far
That’s why all the folks on Rocky Top
Get their corn from a jar!”
“Good ol’ Rocky Top!”
Perhaps if you just asked your question, instead of presenting a crazed hypothetical, I could answer!
- Are you asking me how I form a philosophy of music?
- Are you asking me if Bethel is parallel to Hillsong?
- Are you asking me how I delineate standards for different contexts (corporate worship vs. individual listening)?
- Are you asking if I’m worried that my listening to one Hillsong album in private (or any contemporary artist) might be a slippery slope that leads to something like the madhouse that is Bethel for corporate worship?
Just ask your question.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[Larry]“You didn’t want heaven without us”??
Are you disputing that line?
God chose to permit humans who repent of their sins and accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for their sins to be able to go to Heaven. He didn’t have to do so; Heaven would not be incomplete or lack anything without us. Yet He did so anyway. He didn’t want Heaven to be without us. Why?: it’s a profound mystery to undeserving sinners like me. It’s the mystery of Grace.
Perhaps there’s something about the phrasing that’s lost in translation for some (the songwriter is from New Zealand). Or perhaps an already biased eye is predisposed to see nonexistent fault in the songwriter’s intent.
My church follows the regulative principle of worship and they tend to be very careful about what music we sing. We use the Master’s Seminary’s hymn book and even then I have refrained from singing one of the hymns the last three weeks (Fosdick? Really John Mac?). In my experience, churches put a lot less effort into speaking the truth during the singing than they do during the preaching time and that’s unfortunate. Granted many are not that way and maybe there is even a trend towards improvement in this area in Bible believing churches.
As far as Hillsong goes, if it’s a potential problem for several in the congregation why do it?
BJU’s problem is that for too long they have taught, promoted, and enforced - much too often with a heavy hand, that This. Was. The. Only. Way. To. Church. That THIS was THE only right music. That THEY were not doing it THE right way.
They have painted themselves into a corner of sorts and now are trying to broaden their world. With accreditation, inter-collegiate sports, and an updated dress code, these are all issues BJU held such a hard, Firm, this-is-absolutely-based-on-the-BIBLE, line on for decades, its no wonder they are getting push-back. This is the bed they made, but I hope they are able to create the space they need to grow and thrive.
Regarding to whatever degree this “Rocky Top” issue has stirred a controversy. Really??? We want to fuss about “Rocky Top” and bluegrass???
I am a BJU alumn, grew up in the Fundy world, and worked in Fundyland for several years. Now, I work in a ministry that has new evangelical leanings. I can’t tell you how much the latter is such a fresh breath of air. To be sure, this new evangelical world does have its own potential pitfalls. But, with Fundy-ville, you can feel like Big Brother is always watching you. With where I’m at now, the freedom I see and feel would take too long to describe than what could fit in this post.
But, we are crabbing about Rocky Top & Bluegrass??? Really???
On wisdom, I would argue that it IS a sin to walk into that strip club; you are participating in uncovering the nakedness of those young ladies, aren’t you? Leviticus 18, brother.
Regarding slippery slopes, the fallacy is strictly speaking a string of unconnected consequences. If we use music with some connection with moonshine and killing revenuers to protect the business, then a string of spiritual disasters will ensue. Again, that is always, always bad logic, and those who use it will discredit themselves because the string of disasters do not ensue. Always.
There is, however, the issue of connected consequences of decisions. For example, if we depart from Biblical teaching on sexuality, our thoughts and behavior will ipso facto become un-Biblical. The trick for our sanity and morality is to understand what is in fact Biblical teaching on sexuality.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Don, I’m not ignoring your post. I’m just having difficulty figuring out exactly what you are saying. Do I believe the fall sinfully effected human culture? Of course! But styles of music are not a fundamental of the faith, are they? I am no fan of contemporary Christian music. Our church music is very conservative and traditional. I believe that is the best way to honor the Lord with our worship. But upon what basis can I judge another brother’s music without clear Biblical guidelines? It’s one thing to agree to a general problem in principle. It’s quite another to write definitions and declare Biblical boundaries. I confess that I am unable to do this. Would I like to? Yes. Can I do so honorably from Scripture? No. At least I haven’t figured out how. Perhaps you can help me.
G. N. Barkman
We should remember two things as we discuss this thread:
- The context of the “BJU + bluegrass” issue is not a corporate church worship service. Indeed, my own comments were made in the context of private listening. Let’s not confuse categories.
- I suspect, if we’re honest, most of us hold our music preferences because of subjective, reflexive sub-cultural reasons, then look for Scripture to support what we already want to believe. Subjectivity is perhaps nowhere more evident than in the ecclesiastical music wars.
On this matter, as with so many others, I refer my own deeper questions to that great MoG, Dr. John Hamblin …
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[G. N. Barkman]Don, I’m not ignoring your post. I’m just having difficulty figuring out exactly what you are saying. Do I believe the fall sinfully effected human culture? Of course! But styles of music are not a fundamental of the faith, are they? I am no fan of contemporary Christian music. Our church music is very conservative and traditional. I believe that is the best way to honor the Lord with our worship. But upon what basis can I judge another brother’s music without clear Biblical guidelines? It’s one thing to agree to a general problem in principle. It’s quite another to write definitions and declare Biblical boundaries. I confess that I am unable to do this. Would I like to? Yes. Can I do so honorably from Scripture? No. At least I haven’t figured out how. Perhaps you can help me.
Greg, your reply is helpful in this way: in this post you seem to acknowledge that indeed there is a connection between musical styles and the sinful human heart. Your earlier post seemed to deny it. I agree that expressing a standard objectively and scripturally is challenging. I don’t think it is impossible, but it is more than I have time for at the moment.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Discussion