Should Christians listen to secular music?

John E. said he rejects the notion that music is amoral. Couldn’t agree more!

I recall many years ago the only people I heard promoting that idea was from lovers of CCM that were trying to justify their music. I always thought that if they wanted to listen to CCM, OK fine. But at least don’t look at us with a straight face and tell us that music is amoral.

I even heard some folks effectively say that music is amoral, because who is to say that the black dots on white paper were good or bad.

In my opinion, to say that music amoral is to be willfully ignorant.

My take:

1. Instrumentation has its own melodies and harmonies. Not bad.

2. Lyrics: not all I/you/we/you. Some portions of lyrics directly from Scripture, in particular Psalm 103. Pretty good, it is Psalm-singing to a degree.

3. Mood; some intensity, but (IMO) not melodramatic. Far better than average, and it passes my “Could Air Supply sing this?” test. (if the answer is “yes”, it fails)

Regarding drums, Psalms 149 and 150, in my view. But per John’s perspective, once you start putting the drummer in a clear plastic cage and turning the volume up to 11, then you’re going to have some trouble fulfilling a Biblical role for congregational singing—to impart God’s Word to God’s people in lyric form.

All in all, I highly endorse more Psalm-singing, by the way.

I was in an IFB church (known to everyone reading this on SI, with virtually no doubt) three years ago for a funeral in which these were 2 of the 4 songs used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWaYxLnQLWI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCpP0mFD9F0

This past June, I was at a wedding in another IFB church at which this song was used as the recessional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhhcHMkmyF8

(This last one really caught me off guard!)

[CAWatson]

John,

Would you separate music that is appropriate for worship from music that is appropriate for leisure? Or are all musical forms and styles appropriate for worship?

Yes. A simple example that is with all of us who have kids is nursery rhymes. If we were to translate that into Christian music you would have songs like “Father Abraham” or “Only a boy named David”, which often get criticized for poor theology. You can’t have it both ways. God gave the gift to man of music. While much of that was to focus this gift on worship, I don’t believe Scripture outlines it exclusively. The same holds truth for all of our gifts, such as art and other elements. The question is can we have art that is not associated with worship? Some would argue that having art associated with worship would actually go against the commandment of having idols. I believe there are moral aspects of music that should be followed, but I don’t think music is exclusive for worship. I believe that God made us more creative than that, and that we operate, live and exist in a secular physical world.

My wife loves opera. I like 50’s Doo Wop. Listening to this music gives us joy. At one time or another each of us has been rebuked by Christian friends for our affection for these secular genres. In response I said that I thank God for the things in life that give me pleasure. Things like creation, sleep, the love of my wife, and good food. I was eating dinner with a Christian who is a confirmed vegetarian and he smiled after I said grace and said, “I don’t think I could have thanked God for that ham steak you’re eating.” We both laughed when I said, “You don’t have to.”

double post

[Larry Nelson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXDGE_lRI0E&list=RDhbBZZObVl3g&index=2

Is this song suitable for worshipping God with? Or, being CCM, is it secular (or “secular-like”) in the view of anyone here?

I know some IFB’s who say they love this song (and have sung it in their churches), and conversely others who (at least officially) loathe it

Like the chorus, not a big fan of the verses. Why? because the chorus has the right rythm where it’s easy for a congregation to sing together. The verses are more difficult. At first, I thought, well, I’m just an old fuddy duddy used to singing old hymns growing up, but listening to the young people sing the verses it sounds jumbled. I think they find it difficult as well. Corporate worship is about us lifting our voices together joyfully.

[Larry Nelson]

I was in an IFB church (known to everyone reading this on SI, with virtually no doubt) three years ago for a funeral in which these were 2 of the 4 songs used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWaYxLnQLWI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCpP0mFD9F0

This past June, I was at a wedding in another IFB church at which this song was used as the recessional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhhcHMkmyF8

(This last one really caught me off guard!)

Alot of IFB churches will acquiesce to family wishes in a moment like this.

I think history teaches us that if we wait that Turtles song “Happy Together” will be acceptable wedding music in IFB churches. After all we’re currently using the pop music of 200 years ago in our weddings now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFTnFErJEu4

Take a look at Barry’s comment on “10000 Reasons”. Now I don’t know how he’d specifically describe the differences between the chorus and the verses, but it’s worth noting that the chorus is more clearly wed to a melody and uses a more recognizable rhyme scheme—ABAB. Depending on how things are done, the meter is 9/6/9/6 as well, very regular. The verses, on the flip side, are more or less chanted with a very subtle melody, no particular rhyme scheme, and the meter is irregular—although most lines are close to pentameter.

It’s not quite free verse, and I think it works for the most part, but the long and short of it is that it matters what kind of poetic devices are used. Hymns and the metric psalms tend to use a very consistent meter and a fairly consistent rhyme scheme—that’s what those numbers are in the header of a lot of hymnals, and that’s why you can swap tunes and lyrics with “Amazing Grace”, “Gilligan’s Island Theme”, “Yellow Rose of Texas”, and “House of the Rising Sun.” Very different tunes and lyrics, but same poetic tools.

One doesn’t need to limit one’s self to a certain kind of poetry—there is room for Shakespeare, Goethe, Frost, and ee cummings—but again, as Dr. Bauder mentioned in his comments about genre way back, those poetic devices (his example was a limerick I believe) matter.

I refer all my deeper questions about Christian music to Dr. Frank Garlock …

[Ron Bean]

I think history teaches us that if we wait that Turtles song “Happy Together” will be acceptable wedding music in IFB churches. After all we’re currently using the pop music of 200 years ago in our weddings now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFTnFErJEu4

You don’t understand the term if you think there was pop music 200 yrs ago

How we define it may depend on whether or not we’re beholding to music ecology or not. I, for one, am not a big fan of sociological disciplines that are rooted in post-structuralism. In other words, I reject music ecology as being able to provide a legitimate definition of, well, anything. Because of that, and recognizing that the term would be anachronistic, I believe that it is possible to say that pop music existed 200 years ago. Most likely, what some would call the pop music of 200 years ago would be labeled “folk music” by many today, especially those adhering to music ecology’s definitions.

All that being said, I’m curious as to how you define pop music, Don.

I was thinking “pop” as an abbreviated form of “popular”. Grin

And Wagner’s associations with anti-Semitism may also be problematic. Bigger grin

It may be better if, like Tyler, I defer to music experts like Frank Garlock and David Cloud (and Scott Aniol) and quit trying to make people smile a little.

I will probably want to edit this later, but I define pop music, in its broadest definition, as the music that appeals to a community’s lowest common denominator.

Because of radio, then TV, and now streaming sites, the music listening community has broadened to the point where the lowest common denominator is even lower.

Now, if we want to discuss the term in relation to specific sub-genres, then pop music can be more clearly defined. However, in discussions like on this thread, I’m pretty sure that we’re using the term in an bigger umbrella sense than how it’s used to differentiate between music styles under the rock/blues/jazz/country umbrella.