More seminary students leave the Master of Divinity behind

I was going to make a comment—or maybe wisecrack—about the driving factor being that you can’t pay off the loans on an MDIV with preacher’s pay, but the article is quite different. The author connects pay with the issue, yes, but the bigger issue in her view is the decline in mainline churches. Having grown up in one of them, and having experienced the mainline experience in a number of denominations, I’m not quite sure I can portray that portion of the plunge in MDIVs as a huge loss.

And I say that as a huge proponent of academic training who laments the lack of academic rigor in “fundagelical” circles as a whole. There is a certain point where either the training does not matter as much as I’d like to believe, or perhaps something else is preventing that rigor from being expressed in a meaningful way. I’d guess part of it is academic elitism turning people off to any benefit—and perhaps even preventing the training from becoming used.

But that said, a general anti-academic mood in fundamental and evangelical churches, along with the refusal to pay young pastors enough to match their student debts, most likely have a huge impact as well.

A few random thoughts:

• The MDiv isn’t an academic degree; it’s a professional degree. That’s not to say it isn’t academic in nature, but it prepares you for a profession, not a career in academia.
• You can’t pay off the MDiv student loan debt with a pastor’s salary; not in Baptist circles
• A pastor likely already has student debt from his undergrad. You’re kidding yourself if you believe it’s an easy decision to go into more debt for the MDiv
• If your default response is that a pastor should suck it up, and go into debt, and sacrifice for the Lord, then you’re being foolish and unrealistic.
• The seminary industrial complex (my own term) is committed to preaching a “go to bible college, get your BA, then come to Seminary and get your MDiv, and serve the Lord” model. This isn’t nefarious and evil, but it’s a model that keeps them in business. The typical student who follows this model ends up with a MDiv at 26 (or so), with mountains of debt, and little or no formal training for a decent secular job, so he subsists on perhaps $40k per year (if he’s lucky), while his wife works to provide medical insurance. Meanwhile, with their meager combined salaries, they struggle to survive and pay off his (and perhaps hers!) student loan debt. All told, this is not a blueprint for long term success.
• Online education is where it’s at. People can whine and moan as often as they wish. If your institution does not embrace virtual and/or online education, it will die.
• The MDiv will continue to wane as long as good MAs are offered, coupled with virtual and online options.
• The MDiv is known as the Cadillac degree for a reason. If you go to a good school, it gives you the tools you need for sustained success in ministry. An MA can’t replace it.

My advice:

• A pastor should be realistic, get an MA, and chip away at an MDiv with virtual or online education over several years. This is what I’ve been doing; I graduated with my MA five years ago, and I’ve been in ministry continuously before, during, and since that time. I just have a few semesters of Hebrew left, and I’ll be done.
• Don’t do the “move my family to XYZ city, go to school fulltime for three years, and be done” model. Take it slow and take your time. One class at a time. Patience. Apply your new skills gradually, as you do ministry and serve in your church. You may be on the 10 year MDiv plan, but what’s the hurry!? If Jesus returns tomorrow, will He rebuke you for not having your MDiv? “Depart from me! I never knew you; thou has not an MDiv! Behold, you have been faithful over very little, for tough hast only an MA!”
• Take it slow, and take several years to chip away at the MDiv.

These seminaries provide quality online M.Div. at a comparatively affordable cost. MBS and BBS both provide tuition discounts for full-time pastors.

• Maranatha Baptist Seminary
• Baptist Bible Seminary
• Luther Rice Seminary

There are other good options as well.

I’m reading God’s Ambassadors: The Westminster Assembly and the Reformation of the English Pulpit, 1643-1653 by Chad Van Dixhoorn, and it’s amazing how stringent the academic requirements were for ordination (moral requirements too, but that’s not what this thread is about). While I don’t believe that we should wholesale mimic the Westminster Divines on this, academic rigor and accountability is a good thing for pastors.

The Reformed Baptist Seminary is budget friendly. Currently, I’m weighing pursuing an Mdiv at RBS or at the RTS here in DC. By God’s grace, our church pays for the seminary education for those in our congregation who meet certain qualifications, including how the individual plans on using the degree. Contributing to the SBC Cooperative Program means that our members also receive steep discounts at SBC seminaries.

I went straight from Christian college to seminary. Got married before seminary. My wife taught school while I was in seminary, she was gone from 7-4. I was in class 8-11 or 12, depending on the day, then I worked 1-9 or 10, depending on the day. My next to last year of seminary, our first child was born. I completed a M. Div.

I had very little time to spend with my young family, I missed out on a lot. While I appreciate my degree, I totally understand a young man finding another way.

My recommendation is that seminaries need a 5 year B.A./M. Div. combo. A few have it. One past seminary president I talked to (BBS) said they’d accommodate it but most undergrads were not academically capable of it, so they did not market it.

[TylerR]

• You can’t pay off the MDiv student loan debt with a pastor’s salary; not in Baptist circles

I have my own thoughts/opinions, but I’m interested in others:

• Why can’t/don’t (most) IFB churches pay their pastors better?
• What might be done to change the situation/circumstances, so that more would be able to pay higher salaries?

Why can’t/don’t (most) IFB churches pay their pastors better?

IFB churches are not alone in this. Most churches are this way. But various factors:

• Size and demographics in many cases.
• Unwise decisions in the past such as selling parsonages so that the cash salary now has to be eaten up by housing expenses.
• Having too large a missions’ budget can be a factor.
• Spending priorities.
• Wrong view of pastoral income (on both sides).

What might be done to change the situation/circumstances, so that more would be able to pay higher salaries?

Grow churches larger, but realistically, accept that for many churches (IFB and non-IFB), a full-time pastorate is not possible. Bi-vocational is going to be the way of the future for many churches. It’s not a bad idea. Take a team approach to ministry that intentionally spreads out responsibility.

….is the assumption that a BA from Bible college is sufficient. There are a lot more young men who can make it through Bible college than can make it through a masters’ degree program of any type, and hence it’s a simple issue of supply and demand. I would guess that if we were able to get churches to take “apt to teach” seriously without risking academic snobbery, a whole lost of troubles in churches might be mitigated.

“If”, as the Spartans told Philip of Macedon, and “maybe.”

[Larry]

Grow churches larger, but realistically, accept that for many churches (IFB and non-IFB), a full-time pastorate is not possible. Bi-vocational is going to be the way of the future for many churches. It’s not a bad idea. Take a team approach to ministry that intentionally spreads out responsibility.

I say it is more about poor choices/priorities and the lack of giving. I have been in some extremely small churches that have paid the pastor well and I have been in some larger churches that have not paid the pastor very well. One of the key bad choices churches make is setting the priority of a building over the pastor. Don’t get a building if you can’t pay the pastor appropriately. If you have 10 giving families there is no reason why the pastor can’t be paid properly.

There is also no reason why a pastor has to graduate college with debt. I graduated from a Bible college without an ounce of assistance from either the school, government or my family and I graduated without debt. Not easy, but can be done.

Southern Baptists offer great financial assistance for seminary students. This is provided by churches giving through the Cooperative Program, and also through special gifts.

For example:

https://swbts.edu/offices/financial-aid/

David R. Brumbelow

I must confess that there are some aspects of the SBC that look pretty good to me, and the support available for seminary students is one of them. I’m not ready to take the plunge, but I think others would benefit from following certain SBC practices.

Another thought; if the pastor is indeed the “elder”, then we might infer that a younger pastor (e.g. Timothy) ought to be the exception rather than the rule, and that for most, pastoring ought to be a second career—and the training for the equivalent of an MDiv can then be spread over decades instead of years.

Granted, we’re going against two millenia of history—it is said that rabbinic training of the 1st Century was 12 years starting at age 18—but if we value the definition of Strong’s #4245 as much as we emphasize the definition of Strong’s #907, we might yet come to the conclusion that another approach would be wise.

And if many come to that point, we would then find people arriving in the ministry with a long, good track record in the secular world and their college debts paid off, and with their kids largely grown.

One of the key bad choices churches make is setting the priority of a building over the pastor. Don’t get a building if you can’t pay the pastor appropriately. If you have 10 giving families there is no reason why the pastor can’t be paid properly.

I am not sure it it this simple for two reasons. First, you have to have a building or there is no real reason to have a pastor. If you can’t meet, you can’t be a church. It may be that the building is an unwise choice for one reason or another, but I don’t think it is “building or pastor.” Second, ten giving families may not be able to pay the pastor depending on the families, which goes back to my point about demographics. What is 10% of a bridge card? Or any percent of what’s leftover after housing and food for a low income family? In some neighborhoods, the money simply isn’t there even if they are mature enough to be committed to giving.

I’m curious about the 10 giving families being enough to financially support a full-time pastor.

The median household income in Arlington, VA is around $108K. Let’s be generous and say those ten families give 20% to the church. That comes out to just over $200k a year. Half of that church’s budget is going to be taken up with the pastor’s salary. Unless that church is meeting somewhere for free, I don’t see how a church with only 10 giving families can support a full-time pastor (and that’s even taking into consideration my bad use of statistics meeting my bad math).

I understand that the cost of living and salaries are abnormal where I live, but I’m assuming that the numbers won’t work out in other parts of the country either.

[John E.]

I’m curious about the 10 giving families being enough to financially support a full-time pastor.

The median household income in Arlington, VA is around $108K. Let’s be generous and say those ten families give 20% to the church. That comes out to just over $200k a year. Half of that church’s budget is going to be taken up with the pastor’s salary. Unless that church is meeting somewhere for free, I don’t see how a church with only 10 giving families can support a full-time pastor (and that’s even taking into consideration my bad use of statistics meeting my bad math).

I understand that the cost of living and salaries are abnormal where I live, but I’m assuming that the numbers won’t work out in other parts of the country either.

What I’ve bolded is about how it works. If you have 10-11 families in the church, say 30-40 people there including children (we’ll assume they’re not all homeschoolers, in which case the number would be 70-100, of course), you can meet, albeit snugly, in a generously sized living or family room. Aren’t we told that a lot of ancient churches were indeed house churches? A discussion of “what is really needed in church” might be very profitable—sometimes we are better at building buildings than at making disciples, it seems.